Alternative Cancer Treatment - An unbiased discussion on the basic theories behind.

[Skeptiquette]

Hello Mike,

I perused the Budwig diet website and it seems as though the principle tenet is the intake of Omega 3 fatty acids in the form of flax seed (abundant in ALA), which of course you stated in your second post (why it is at post 359 and no one has focused on this idea beats me.)

So, I used pubmed to search “Omega-3 and Cancer” and the first page of results had some interesting original research and reviews. I think maybe it would be easiest to first focus on this idea, if Omega-3 has a preventive effect or therapeutic effect against cancer. There is a plethora of research interrogating these questions that can be found on pubmed.

From the first page of results I chose a few papers and got them through my access at my building which is part of the university research park (a couple papers of interest on that first page of results are free and available to anyone.)

First paper was a review: Omega-3 Fatty Acids in Cancer (1)

A couple of the statements in the article jumped out at me as being relevant to what you are asking.

A promising concept is combination of drugs targeting cancer cells with strategies supporting the host or priming his/her metabolism… It is therefore tempting to speculate that specific nutrients given at specific doses and at critical time points in the clinical journey of cancer patients may increase response rate to treatment and improve patient centred outcomes.

The tumour inflammatory microenvironment plays a major role in growth, invasiveness and resistance to therapy [28]. On the contrary, food is a potent inducer of metabolic responses. Therefore, modulation of food intake may impact on tumour growth, by sensitizing cancer cells to chemotherapy and increasing resistance of normal cells to the toxic effects.

Considering the cost of omega-3 fatty acid supplementation when compared to chemotherapy, even achieving a 30% increase inresponse rate by integrating EPA/DHA in standard treatment of cancer patients would prove to be highly cost-effective.

From what I can tell from a cursory look at some literature, one of the key ways that Omega-3 supplementation is hypothesized to be beneficial is that shifting the Omega 6:3 ratio to more Omega-3 may reduce the propensity of the immune system to be inflammatory (via COX and Prostaglandin pathways), which could potentially have a downstream effect on tumor initiation (from a preventative standpoint) and tumor growth (from a treatment standpoint).

As far as the claim (theory) that more of the Omega is assimilated when the flax is mixed with a sulfonated protein, I have no idea, but I would assume this would be really easy to test and may have been done.

As to your Third Theory, you seem to be in line with what these authors (from above quotations) so, there should be a quality to discussion to be had if people are willing to look into it more.

Fourth Theory: Not sure about this, from the review I have quoted above I found these two relevant points:

It is likely that tumour cells were made more sensitive to chemotherapy when membrane lipids were enriched with DHA, an oxidative stress-inducing lipid.

It looks as though it is hypothesized that Omega-3 supplementation can increase the efficacy of traditional treatments. Also, this:

When considered together, this evidence suggests that omega-3 fatty acids may exert a direct inhibitory effect on cancer cells in vivo (proapoptotic effect?)

Theory 5: Not sure about Budwig’s theory here. There could be a multitude of effects taking place, immunomodulation, direct membrane effects, etc.

Theory 6: I think this is sound as well. From what I read in the review I cited, it seems that it would even make sense to adopt the flax consumption part of the Budwig diet if there was a conventional treatment in place, because it may have the potential to make it more efficacious. The rest of the diet seems reasonable as well, lots of leafy greens, low intake of refined sugars and starches, no ice-cream or dairy(this is a tough one), no pork (ok, count me out… bacon, mmm), and then:

• Avoid pesticides and chemicals, even those in household products & cosmetics. Good old vinegar, as well as baking soda are excellent household cleaners (look on the Internet for more info)
• NO microwave, NO Teflon or aluminium cooking ware or aluminium foil. We recommend and provide during your stay at Budwig Center enamel cooking ware. Stainless steel, ceramic, cast iron, glass and corning cooking wear are fine.

Not bad advice at all. We abide by these principles at our house. Well, we don’t have Budwig Center enamel cooking ware, but we do have stainless steel only.

Theory 7: Of course this is reasonable, see review cited.



1. Alessandro Laviano, Serena Rianda, Alessio Molfino, and Filippo Rossi Fanelli. Omega-3 fatty acids in cancer. Curr Opin Clin Nutr Metab Care 2013, 16:156–161.

 

[Pixel42]

Thank you for taking the time to do that, Skeptiquette. It may still be possible to have a meaningful on topic discussion.

 

[pakeha]

Spontaneous regression and apparent full recovery, are known to happen, with and without intervention. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest that placebo treatments produce a greater incidence of them.


The ethics committees, whose role is to make that decision, often agree that it is. It depends on the circumstances.


Yes; informed consent must be obtained.


That presumably depends on the individual circumstances. There may be immunological reasons, hormonal reasons, other reasons, unknown reasons, or a combination of the above.


Yes; wikipedia notes a study showing up to 22% of breast cancer cases showed spontaneous regression. A cursory google will produce more, and probably better, examples.

In fact you could have easily found answers to those questions yourself, with a few simple searches.

Up to 22% of breast cancers remit spontaneously.
That's a lot of wriggle room for alt med.

Skeptiquette, thanks so much for your thoughtful research.
Unless I'm mistaken, all of the benefits of the Omega 3/flax/etc supplentation to the diet presupposes convention cancer treatment and is used to potentialise it.

 

[Mojo]

...and then:

• Avoid pesticides and chemicals, even those in household products & cosmetics. Good old vinegar, as well as baking soda are excellent household cleaners

Good old vinegar, as well as baking soda are chemicals.

• NO microwave

Why?

 

[Akuma Tennou]

Not even Einstein was an skeptic. Darwin was not a skeptic! (Read his first lines in the "Theory of Evolution").

They were not sceptic about what exactly ?
(and there's no "theory of evolution" that I know of signed by darwin, read the other lines they're cool too)

 

[jli]

Up to 22% of breast cancers remit spontaneously.
That's a lot of wriggle room for alt med.

It is important to know, that this is an assumption made on the basis of studies on screening detected breast cancers such as this one: http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=773446

They are used by opponents of breast cancer screening as an argument that screening overdiagnoses cancers leading to unnecessary treatments.

Spontaneous regression of clinically detected breast cancer does not occur in followup studies on patients who opt for alternative therapy for breast cancer instead of conventional treatment. Here is a review of four such studies: http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=773446

This does not prove that it never happens, but it is fair to say that it does not happen in 22 % of all clinically detected breast cancers.

 

[pakeha]

You want to know why no micro-wave ovens?
Read and weep, Mojo

"...Besides these thermal modifications, there is direct damage to cell walls and genes from microwaves. Gene altering technology, which includes the biotech food industry, alters genes by weakening them with microwaves. Hertel explained further, "... the cells are actually broken, thereby neutralizing the electrical potentials - the very life of the cells - between the outer and inner sides of the cell membranes."

Strange and unknown compounds are created by microwave energy`s penetration into organic matter. They are called radiolytic compounds. Many scientists argue that these are created from normal cooking as well. However, Hertel`s research has indicated that far more radiolytic compounds are created by microwave cooking."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030651_microwave_cooking_cancer.html#ixzz2N971T7ZX

http://www.naturalnews.com/030651_microwave_cooking_cancer.html

 

[Skeptiquette]

Yes, I realize everything in the world is comprised of chemicals, It's more the novel chemicals that we try to avoid in our daily living. For, example we have very few household cleaners, never use personal products loaded with noxious chemicals, don't spray my lawn or garden with anything, etc.

This not only for personal health, but this is better for the environment as well.

Microwave--stopped using one about a decade ago in my early twenties and haven't looked back to reassess the decision. I don't have any good logical reason to base that decision on except that food taste better if it is not microwaved. Oh, and the radiolytic effects...they're scary, hahaha.

No, really, I actually don't mind using one when i go to my parents or other's who have one. It's also just that the microwave shelf makes such a nice cookbook shelf at our house.

WRT to the omega 3 and adjunctive therapy, yes that seems to be a key interest in cancer treatment. However, one of the otherpapers that I perused was a meta analysis that looked at Omega-3's in their cancer preventative capacity, here is the paper (it is free to anyone):

Relationship of dietary intake of omega-3 and omega-6 Fatty acids with risk of prostate cancer development: a meta-analysis of prospective studies and review of literature.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3488406/

This review looked at only prospective studies, and found:

A significant negative association between high dietary intake of alpha-linolenic acid (ALA) and prostate cancer risk (pooled RR: 0.915; 95% CI: 0.849, 0.985; P = 0.019) was noted.

So, apparently a diet high in Flax seed may also confer some protection or reduced risk of prostate cancer, thus it could be potentially considered preventative as well as adjunctive.

 

[jli]

Skeptiquette already covered theories 2-7, So I will briefly cover theory 1:

The first theory is my doctor's theory (and it amazes me you also fell under the same confusion!) that I have a metastatic tumor (it is of an epithelial nature in the wrong place) located adhered to the pubic bone. So... If it is metastatic how come it is a benign tumor?

Would the 1st. theory then be: "There can be metastatic tumors which are benign!"

It is impossible to have a benign metastatic tumour. If a tumour has metastasised it is malignant.

I previously misunderstood you as having a tumour that had metastasised into the bones. If it adheres to the bones, it opens up the possibility that it is a primary benign tumour originating from some adnexal structure in the skin. This would explain why three pathologists after immunohistochemistry would agree to reclassify it as a benign tumour, even though you were originally given a malignant diagnosis.

I am only guessing here, but this would explain the conflicting information you have been given. It should be explained in the pathology report.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

You want to know why no micro-wave ovens?
Read and weep, Mojo

"...Besides these thermal modifications, there is direct damage to cell walls and genes from microwaves. Gene altering technology, which includes the biotech food industry, alters genes by weakening them with microwaves. Hertel explained further, "... the cells are actually broken, thereby neutralizing the electrical potentials - the very life of the cells - between the outer and inner sides of the cell membranes."

Strange and unknown compounds are created by microwave energy`s penetration into organic matter. They are called radiolytic compounds. Many scientists argue that these are created from normal cooking as well. However, Hertel`s research has indicated that far more radiolytic compounds are created by microwave cooking."

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/030651_microwave_cooking_cancer.html#ixzz2N971T7ZX

http://www.naturalnews.com/030651_microwave_cooking_cancer.html

Whereas, if you boil some food in water for 10 minutes, it is completely and utterly chemically unchanged.

 

[ehcks]

Whereas, if you boil some food in water for 10 minutes, it is completely and utterly chemically unchanged.

The very purpose of cooking is changing food's chemical structures. Some foods require cooking to be eaten. Some of those are dangerously poisonous before cooking, even without counting the foods with common parasites or microbes.

Ordinary red kidney beans contain a toxin that causes nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea if eaten raw. If cooked below boiling, it actually becomes more dangerous. They must be boiled for at least ten minutes to become safe to eat.

 

[Mojo]

You want to know why no micro-wave ovens?
Read and weep, Mojo

"...Besides these thermal modifications, there is direct damage to cell walls and genes from microwaves. Gene altering technology, which includes the biotech food industry, alters genes by weakening them with microwaves. Hertel explained further, "... the cells are actually broken, thereby neutralizing the electrical potentials - the very life of the cells - between the outer and inner sides of the cell membranes."

Oh dear. I hope they don't find out about all the devices that produce higher energy radiation, such as light bulbs.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Understanding economy in Latin countries

About USD 2000?


About how much?

"Estrella del día" (DaylightStar):

An average university professor gets a salary about Q9000.00 (Guatemalan money). IT is about $1100.00 monthly, and this is a middle class salary!
With it you have to pay rent, buy a car, keep children at school, eat!!! yes, eat and get dressed! Not other "superfluous" expenses cited.

So far I spent more than 1 year of family resources, equivalent to most of my savings in 10 years!

Do you see why $2000.00 is really a far expensive procedure?
Probably this will help you understand why there is also a much greater interest and usage of Natural Treatments including many MD.s resorting to viable, sense making treatments like the flax one.

Does this make any sense or is it "wooing, hidden advertising"?

 

[MikeAparicio]

Thanks, that's good to know, but it would be nice if - just once - the OP of a thread like this really was interested in an unbiased discussion.

Dear pixel42 (Pretty graphic pseudonym!)

If you see me not getting to a point, it is because I have to waist every bodies time by responding to personal, ad hominen, diminishing attacks and sarcasms.

I am trying to make OLD frequent users here to abandon such "personal" arguments!

I find you are very cool but some times you loose patience when it is a matter of understanding globally what goes on here.

 

[MikeAparicio]

Not only bluster, but asking opinions on opinions the posts claim were made by physicians.

What would be interesting would be to have the actual physicians (if they exist) here to discuss the diagnosis.

Otherwise what we have is a second-hand account of what was allegedly said, nothing more.

Oh! You want my doctors to pop in! Well.. I want your scientists to pop in!

I see I am SEVERELY disqualified to convey any information on myself!

I suppose you are a Doctor so you don't want to listen to an ordinary engineer!

 

[Daylightstar]

"Estrella del día" (DaylightStar):

An average university professor gets a salary about Q9000.00 (Guatemalan money). IT is about $1100.00 monthly, and this is a middle class salary!
With it you have to pay rent, buy a car, keep children at school, eat!!! yes, eat and get dressed! Not other "superfluous" expenses cited.

So far I spent more than 1 year of family resources, equivalent to most of my savings in 10 years!

Do you see why $2000.00 is really a far expensive procedure?
Probably this will help you understand why there is also a much greater interest and usage of Natural Treatments including many MD.s resorting to viable, sense making treatments like the flax one.

Does this make any sense or is it "wooing, hidden advertising"?

Of course $2000.00 would be very expensive. No disagreement there.
But ...

...

...
I cannot afford more doctors, more expensive tests, more expensive histo. exams. I can afford to do something which is NOT costing me lot's of money (actually saving) and highly promising by the dreaded testimonials and the results happening to ME! ...

About how much?

How much are your Budwig Diet 'Protocol' and PH 'protocol' adding up to?

 

[MikeAparicio]

Spontaneous regression and apparent full recovery, are known to happen, with and without intervention. As far as I am aware, there is no evidence to suggest that placebo treatments produce a greater incidence of them.


The ethics committees, whose role is to make that decision, often agree that it is. It depends on the circumstances.


Yes; informed consent must be obtained.


That presumably depends on the individual circumstances. There may be immunological reasons, hormonal reasons, other reasons, unknown reasons, or a combination of the above.


Yes; wikipedia notes a study showing up to 22% of breast cancer cases showed spontaneous regression. A cursory google will produce more, and probably better, examples.

In fact you could have easily found answers to those questions yourself, with a few simple searches.

Thanks Dlorde!

I detect you are really into the Clinical trials work!
Good to hear your opinions are they must be well documented.
What you tell us about Clinical trials and placebo usage worries me to the point I will open a new threat on clinical trials and it's ethic implications.
I don't think this is the right thread for it.
Your other opinions are leading right towards the point I will be making in my next post at the thread bottom.
Thanks for responding in a sensible way!

 

[MikeAparicio]

Thanks Skeptiquette!

It is good to see a fresh (newbie) participant contributes a lot with UNBIASED information, very useful to the point I will go further assembling my proposition.

Per other posts we now understand better the facts about spontaneous remission, the diet effects on metabolism, the relation between metabolism and illness, including cancer, and the interest awaken by Flax in oil and crushed seed intake. Although not yet responded or having an opinion, we must find a correlation between Fkax oil digestibility in tight blend with a sulfonated protein.
Flax oil metabolism is of a very complex nature.
Here is an interesting article: Biomolecular Interaction Study of Cyclolinopeptide A with Human Serum Albumin

It is time for me to say an IMPORTANT statement:

I am FULLY AWARE of the so many dubious "alternative remedies" proposed i Internet.
I do believe the concerns manifested in this forums regarding those possible scams are truly justified.
The problem I see is there is no consideration regarding the Law of Probabilities which would lead us to think there could not be a 100% probability ALL those alternatives are unfounded and nonviable.

There are practical theories, where the developers are not speaking of a "cure" but of a strong process to bring the body to self correction of any ill process.

The strict diet, Flax-Sulfonated protein based, healing protocol does NOT imply cancer cell destruction. IT supports the notion the body, being subject to an extremely correct diet, where ALL fats (except the Flax) are suppressed, where no sugars or starches are allowed and where a careful balance of nutrients, favoring a natural raise on pH, will promote in many cases, natural regression and possible remission.

IF we accept natural remission of big cancers, we must consider an internal process (metabolic and biochemical) takes place, causing the reversion of the malignancy, restoring apoptosis and suppressing angiogenesis.

The difficulties on establishing what caused those changes leading to a remission would justify research and experimentation on different ways to alter the metabolism and consequently improve the natural recovery process.

So we would be not deviating from our concerns about random "alternative" by considering those claims on IMPROVING BODY REGENERATIVE RESPONSE.

The Flax-Sufonated-protein protocol precisely was defined by the protocol author, not to promote a "cure" but to enable natural ways to raise the spontaneous remission phenomena.

Why should it be "impossible" to accomplish if the phenomena actually happens naturally and it is scientifically documented?

The problem to this research is, it has been commercialized and subject to promotional activities by dubious interests, which leads skeptic minds to place an interrogation mark and a censorship flag on those notions.

It is easy to understand; the diet requirements, the long term process, and the intense flax oil intake makes it very difficult to implement a double blind test on the effectiveness towards spontaneous remission, which I would call "Spontaneous Remission Adjuvant Protocol" or SRAP.

So far, the unacceptable testimonial information (by skeptic terms) and the Private Practice research, done individually by willing doctors and oncologists is the only source of information, but private practitioners rarely will publicize their findings do to a natural fear to confrontation and discredit.

A serious political complication arises from an obvious restriction to both the Right To Choose and the Right to Speak, lately adopted, under the influence of large pharmaceutical companies, medical doctor's guilds and politicians.

If alcohol is a real LARGE cause of death and loss, why FDA does not ask for triple blind clinical trials to demonstrate it's destructive effects and further banning? And it is one sample of many highly health destructive propositions. Alternatives for medicine (including quackery and witchcraft) causes very little damage compared to other "legal" accepted things.

A couple of drinks a day does not imply great danger, right? What danger is behind a GOOD diet, Blended Flax oil and Cottage cheese if it is UNDERSTOOD as an adjuvant mainly for those sick persons declared "terminally ill" or non treatable?

Would testimonials of remission with adjuvant protocol be acceptable if accompanied by pre and post medically certified clinical tests?

 

[MikeAparicio]

Of course $2000.00 would be very expensive. No disagreement there.
But ...

How much are your Budwig Diet 'Protocol' and PH 'protocol' adding up to?

Oh! Good question!

Flax Oil-Quark spending is about 10$ to $ 12.00 a week.
Strict diet actually brings my costs down by half as there is no meat, chicken, white breads, bakery, sugars, COFFEE, wine (oh boy!!!!!) and NO cooking oil!

Ph protocol not yet discussed causes me about $ 6.00 in Arm and Hammer stuff plus about $20.00 in grade A molasses. This protocol is only done 15 days and rests for another 15 days.

Check up Doctor fees are $100.00 monthly. (You see? Doctors do not even make BIG money either)

About 10 days ago, the latest visited doctor (to keep track on clinical changes) measured a saliva 7.5 pH at 7:00 pm. Before I started both treatments my saliva pH remained close to 5.4 and a clear acidosis was taking over me!

Once I was told here "there is no way to change body pH or blood pH". What is "acidosis" then? Is it not effect of bad food, lots of drinking, coffee and other INTAKES? Are my diets and protocols leveling up the pH?
I suppose while balance is attained the pH even goes as high as 8.2 or more before stabilizing. (upsetting the tumor?)

Sorry for the digression on you questions response! Also sorry for me saying all that above. I know it is my "testimonial on expenses"... Someone will say he wants to see my doctor's bill and food store invoices!

 

[shuttlt]

Once I was told here "there is no way to change body pH or blood pH". What is "acidosis" then? Is it not effect of bad food, lots of drinking, coffee and other INTAKES?

My recollection was that something somewhat more specific than that there was no way to change PH was said. Can't hyperventilating alter PH? I thought the point had been that your body has mechanisms to regulate your PH and you aren't generally at the mercy of fluctuations in your diet. If your PH is off something is broken. I'm no doctor, so perhaps I didn't understand.