Merged All things Trump + Russia

[Ziggurat]

Ok, Zig, let me rephrase that for you for clarity:

Yes, officials of an election campaign in the US meeting with foreign agents to discuss obtaining information, which happened to be hacked, to smear a candidate for favours isn't illegal or wrong at all.

That rephrase changes the meaning, and is an improvement. But it's still wrong, since there's no indication that the alleged information was hacked. This is unsupported speculation on your part.

You know that for a fact, do you?

I know for a fact that there is no actual evidence to support it being hacked.

But yes, you're technically correct: it could have been hacked from Hillary's private servers.

 

[Belz...]

That rephrase changes the meaning, and is an improvement. But it's still wrong, since there's no indication that the alleged information was hacked. This is unsupported speculation on your part.

It's informed speculation.

I know for a fact that there is no actual evidence to support it being hacked.

But yes, you're technically correct: it could have been hacked from Hillary's private servers.

...wait a second... are... are we... are we in agreement, here? Are you feeling ok?

 

[varwoche]

As opposed to the purely imagined words of the principles?

That email is the only hard evidence we have about what the information supposedly was. It's the best we have. If you want to ignore the best information we have in favor of unfounded speculation, I can't stop you, but you don't actually have any justification for doing so.

Way too binary. There exists grey area between taking each word at face value, and ignoring.

 

[Ziggurat]

It's informed speculation.

Didn't seem very informed to me when you didn't even know the alleged information was about Hillary's Russia deals.

...wait a second... are... are we... are we in agreement, here? Are you feeling ok?

I don't know if we're in agreement. I do remember most people claiming that Hillary's servers were never hacked, I don't know where you came down on that issue.

Not that it matters, because if the alleged information existed (again, we don't know that it did), there are still ways Russia could have obtained it independently or any hacking of Hillary's email server.

 

[Belz...]

Didn't seem very informed to me when you didn't even know the alleged information was about Hillary's Russia deals.

Well since you were wrong about the information NOT being hacked, by your own logic you're not very informed at all. Once wrong always wrong, after all.

I don't know if we're in agreement. I do remember most people claiming that Hillary's servers were never hacked, I don't know where you came down on that issue.

That's because I never discussed it.

 

[Stacko]

Uh...

So that happened.

 

[eeyore1954]

Known liar who was caught in several lies about the meeting says nothing about Clinton was actually obtained and it becomes the narrative as if it were certainly true.

This is the issue for me.
I fully believe most candidates would have met to find out what the information was the source was offering. But the fact that the meeting was not disclosed after all of the Russian fuss and that he mischaracterized (lied) what the meeting was about is troubling to me.

 

[TheL8Elvis]

I get to take my lumps like a man while you keep acting like a child. No fair!

Are we even reading the same thread ?

 

[uke2se]

Uh...

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1331&pictureid=11313[/qimg]

So that happened.

They can't agree on which defense to run with. They should know by now that it doesn't matter. They can run all of the defenses at the same time, even when they are mutually exclusive. Their voters will lap it up anyway.

 

[phiwum]

Has Trump visited St. Petersburg yet? He's gonna' love it. So much gilded gold! He'll be orgasmic the entire visit.

Gilding one's gold is the most ostentatious display I've heard of.

 

[Crossbow]

Yes, and there's no scandal there. It's called politics. Ask Killary.

Even if one is involved with politics, then one is still supposed to follow the law.

Nixon discovered that fact about 45 years ago.

 

[C_Felix]

I'm trying to keep up with Zig and Arg.

Zig seems to be claiming, "The word choice is key! We aren't at war so it can't be treason. The info - how did you know it was from a hack on the DNC? That changes things!"

And Arg seems to claiming, "DT jr went into the meeting assuming to get dirt; dirt that possibly came from a foreign government. If that is the case then he went in the meeting assuming he was going to get dirt (and when he realized he wasn't he left 7 minutes into the meeting), his intent to get something of value from what could be a foreign government is what the issue is since that could be a violation of campaign laws."

 

[Belz...]

C_Felix, can I hire you to summarize threads like this more often? Zig and I sure could use you once in a while.

 

[NoahFence]

Uh...

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/picture.php?albumid=1331&pictureid=11313[/qimg]

So that happened.

I believe when folks are referring to "nothing burgers" that's the type of thing they should focus on. Someone posted a standard template before it was complete. Who cares.

 

[Childlike Empress]

Fascinating read: How Russia-gate Met the Magnitsky Myth

[...] That was when [Veselnitskaya] turned to promoter Rob Goldstone to set up a meeting at Trump Tower with Donald Trump Jr. To secure the sit-down on June 9, 2016, Goldstone dangled the prospect that Veselnitskaya had some derogatory financial information from the Russian government about Russians supporting the Democratic National Committee. Trump Jr. jumped at the possibility and brought senior Trump campaign advisers, Paul Manafort and Jared Kushner, along.

By all accounts, Veselnitskaya had little or nothing to offer about the DNC and turned the conversation instead to the Magnitsky Act and Putin’s retaliatory measure to the sanctions, canceling a program in which American parents adopted Russian children. One source told me that Veselnitskaya also wanted to enhance her stature in Russia with the boast that she had taken a meeting at Trump Tower with Trump’s son.

But another goal of Veselnitskaya’s U.S. trip was to participate in an effort to give Americans a chance to see Nekrasov’s blacklisted documentary ["The Magnitsky Act: Behind the Scenes"]. She traveled to Washington in the days after her Trump Tower meeting and attended a House Foreign Affairs Committee hearing, according to The Washington Post.

There were hopes to show the documentary to members of Congress but the offer was rebuffed. Instead a room was rented at the Newseum near Capitol Hill. Browder’s lawyers. who had successfully intimidated the European Parliament, also tried to strong arm the Newseum, but its officials responded that they were only renting out a room and that they had allowed other controversial presentations in the past. [...]

 

[Stacko]

And parts of the meeting were conducted in Russian as another attendee is revealed.

Trump Jr. lawyer tells NBC News a translator was 6th person who attended meeting with Russian lawyer ​

 

[Belz...]

I believe when folks are referring to "nothing burgers" that's the type of thing they should focus on. Someone posted a standard template before it was complete. Who cares.

Reminds me of a billboard in China that was obvious translated from Chinese to English using an automated translator and read "Server Error".

 

[Belz...]

And parts of the meeting were conducted in Russian as another attendee is revealed.

Trump Jr. lawyer tells NBC News a translator was 6th person who attended meeting with Russian lawyer ​

Gee, these Russians are just multiplying by the minute. Open up one and find another inside, just like those Russian dolls.

 

[Stacko]

Good grief!

The Russian lawyer who met with Donald Trump Jr. and others on the Trump team after a promise of compromising material on Hillary Clinton was accompanied by a Russian-American lobbyist — a former Soviet counterintelligence officer who is suspected by some U.S. officials of having ongoing ties to Russian intelligence, NBC News has learned.

The lobbyist, who denies any current ties to Russian spy agencies, accompanied the lawyer, Natalia Veselnitskaya, to the June 2016 meeting at Trump Tower attended by Donald Trump Jr.; Jared Kushner, the president's son-in-law; and Paul Manafort, former chairman of the Trump campaign.

The Russian-born American lobbyist served in the Soviet military and emigrated to the U.S., where he holds dual citizenship.

...

On April 4, Sen. Charles Grassley, R-Iowa, chairman of the Judiciary Committee, wrote a letter to the Homeland Security department seeking information about Akhmetshin, saying that Akhmetshin admitted to being a Soviet counterintelligence officer. Grassley said Akhmetshin had failed to register as a foreign agent even though he had been lobbying in the U.S. for Russian interests. Grassley also charged that Akhmetshin had been working with Fusion GPS, an opposition-research firm that had compiled a highly disputed dossier on Donald Trump.

Fredo certainly appears to be soliciting here.

Akhmetshin said Trump Jr. asked the attorney for evidence of illicit money flowing to the Democratic National Committee, but Veselnitskaya said she didn’t have that information. She said the Trump campaign would need to research it more, and after that Trump Jr. lost interest, according to Akhmetshin.

 

[tyr_13]

Gilding one's gold is the most ostentatious display I've heard of.

Yo dog, we heard you liked gold...

I'm trying to keep up with Zig and Arg.

Zig seems to be claiming, "The word choice is key! We aren't at war so it can't be treason. The info - how did you know it was from a hack on the DNC? That changes things!"

And Arg seems to claiming, "DT jr went into the meeting assuming to get dirt; dirt that possibly came from a foreign government. If that is the case then he went in the meeting assuming he was going to get dirt (and when he realized he wasn't he left 7 minutes into the meeting), his intent to get something of value from what could be a foreign government is what the issue is since that could be a violation of campaign laws."

It was Kushner who left seven minutes in according to Junior, and Junior called it a 'waste of 20 minutes', so he was there longer. Regardless, the email exchange makes it clear that Junior thought the information was coming from the Russian government through it's apparatus and is 'very sensitive stuff'. Does one assume that means none of it is through espionage? Even with that assumption, it's still clear he both thought and strongly hoped that was all true, because he explicitly says he loves it if it's true. He wanted to get help from Russia's government. He was seeking to get help from Russia's government.

That looks like, and to my reading of the law very much is, illegal. Besides that, it's also wrong. It's also another gargantuan lie by the Trump camp ('no one met with the Russians'). Kushner needs his clearance revoked at an absolute minimum.

I'm entirely surprised unsurprised by the conservative/Republican spinelessness and covering for this. The election showed me I gave them entirely too much credit in the first place. They will not act on even clear information.

EDIT: Opps, see strikeout.