All Religion is Bad.

[Herzblut]

"While the percentage of young people who are sexually active in Brazil changed little between 1998 and 2005, condom use rates increased dramatically—by more than one third among 15-24 year-old men and women. Among Brazilians of all ages, condom use ncreased by almost 50% during the same period."

This clearly refutes your speculations! Where the hell is the pope's evil influence in the biggest catholic country in the world? Brazil's prevalence rate is lower then the US' one. Highest infection rates are found in injecting drug users. The pope?

As well, El Salvador is a catholic country and it has one of the highest HIV rates.

Prevalence or infection rates? What causes the infections?

I think your theories on AIDS being controlled by the pope and his teachings on sex only with marriage and condoms causing HIV/AIDS, are baseless.

I have not mentioned such theories. You are the one speculating that the pope has a desastrous impact on the fight against HIV/AIDS. You have not at all proved this. Brazil stands against you. Latin American prevalence rates range in the area 0.X% where X<5.

1.6 million people in Latin America have to live with the virus compared to 25 million people in sub-Saharan Africa and 8 million in Asia, 2/3 of them in just one country, India. India's prevalence rate is approx. twice as high as Brazil's. The pope again?

Please check Burundi and Angola which starkly refute you.

Proove that catholical countries in Europe (Italy, Spain) are worse than other countries in Europe due to the Pope's negative impact.

Herzblut

 

[articulett]

Admittedly the USA has lots of woo's but I think the Vatican has the patent on miracles.

"Vatican, when you absolutely have to heal every motherfkucer in the room, except no substitutes"

But Americans are home of the creationist woo--creation museums, speaking in tongues, white supremacist/religion combos-- a president who believes in "teaching the controversy" (as if there was one)... Fred Phelps... Regent University... candidates who don't accept evolution...

The notion that faith is necessary for salvation and "good" is a frequently used meme in human history-- but the U.S. has the most virulent and embarrassing forms of it, I fear. The stupid spawn more... passing on their stupid memes and genes in the process.

Of course Muslims countries are even more extreme with their creationism, misogyny, Sharia laws, stonings, and other much scarier nuttiness.

On the bright side, we've produced some top notch scientists and Dawkins' and Hitchens' and Harris' books have all been recent best sellers in the U.S.

 

[qayak]

This clearly refutes your speculations! Where the hell is the pope's evil influence in the biggest catholic country in the world? Brazil's prevalence rate is lower then the US' one. Highest infection rates are found in injecting drug users. The pope?

Actually, it says the highest rate is found in men having unprotected sex (not using condoms) with other men.

The pope's influence is quite simple. First, condoms greatly reduce the risk of being infected. Second, the pope lied to his followers and told them that condoms do not reduce the risk but they, in fact, cause infection.

Because of his position of authority, if one person doesn't use a condom because of the popes advice, he is responsible for their being infected.

Now, suppose this is a god fearing catholic woman who gets infected by her husband. Suppose it is a god fearing catholic woman who also gets pregnant and passes the disease along to her unborn child.

What causes the infections?

It certainly isn't condom use as the pope would have us believe.

I have not mentioned such theories. You are the one speculating that the pope has a desastrous impact on the fight against HIV/AIDS. You have not at all proved this. Brazil stands against you. Latin American prevalence rates range in the area 0.X% where X<5.

You stated that the catholic countries had the lowest rates. That is true as long as you cherry pick your evidence and ignore the programs set up by the governments of the countries you mention.

1.6 million people in Latin America have to live with the virus compared to 25 million people in sub-Saharan Africa and 8 million in Asia, 2/3 of them in just one country, India. India's prevalence rate is approx. twice as high as Brazil's. The pope again?

You're the one that brought up Brazil and made outrageous and unsupported claims. You have committed so many errors of logic it is beyond hope that you will ever realize that what the pope did is completely unethical and immoral. Holding the catholic church up as a moral beacon is laughable. The leadership is about as good for the followers as the leadership of the Taliban is for suicide bombers.

Please check Burundi and Angola which starkly refute you.

They do not refute anything. You make the same errors with those numbers. Have we checked to see if Botswana is a catholic country? Let's do that shall we?

Ooooooooh! Look at this: "The two most active and popular churches are now the Zion Christian Church (both Star and Dove branches), based in South Africa, among the working class, and the Roman Catholics among the middle class. There are also numerous other small Zionist and Apostolic churches in rural villages, as well as United Reformed (Congregational & Methodist), Dutch Reformed, Lutheran, Methodist and Anglican churches, and predominantly expatriate Muslim, Quaker, Hindu and Bahai congregations in major towns."

That blows your idea right out of the water. Catholic countries do not have trhe lowest rates.

Proove that catholical countries in Europe (Italy, Spain) are worse than other countries in Europe due to the Pope's negative impact.

It's not about whether one country is worse than another. We already know there are differences from area to area. The issue is whether the pope's words led to one person who would otherwise not be infected with this terrible disease, was infected because of the pope's blatant lies.

Draw your own conclusions.

 

[Herzblut]

Actually, it says the highest rate is found in men having unprotected sex (not using condoms) with other men.

Page 42 of the WHO Overview document says about Brazil:

However, the highest HIV infection levels are still being found in injecting drug users.

Furthermore, i don't know what the RCC says about condom usage for gay sex, it dislikes gay sex overall. The RCC's notion towards condoms is based upon its fundamental decline of all kinds of contraceptives, which is obviously nonrelevant for gay sex.

Because of his position of authority, if one person doesn't use a condom because of the popes advice, he is responsible for their being infected.

Repeated nonsense. I explained to you that people being non-abstinent have no reason to obey the pope in the condom question. Anything else is absurd.

You stated that the catholic countries had the lowest rates.

I didn't state anything like that. You threw up the bashing statement that

With one stupid statement he (da papa) did irrepairable damage to the fight against HIV/AIDS.

I only asked for evidence. You cannot deliver it.

That is true as long as you cherry pick your evidence and ignore the programs set up by the governments of the countries you mention.

You asked me to mention countries! Look for other countries on your own to provide evidence for your claim.

You're the one that brought up Brazil and made outrageous and unsupported claims.

I didn't make any claim. I just explained that Brazil does not support your claim at all.

You have committed so many errors of logic it is beyond hope that you will ever realize that what the pope did is completely unethical and immoral.

I couldn't care less about what you think of moral. Provide facts and data to support your monstrous claim.

They do not refute anything. You make the same errors with those numbers. Have we checked to see if Botswana is a catholic country? Let's do that shall we?

I did this, you ignored it. Bostwana is not catholic but has desastrous HIV/AIDS stats. Better read my posts before you make a clown of yourself.

Ooooooooh! Look at this: "The two most active and popular churches are now the Zion Christian Church (both Star and Dove branches), based in South Africa, among the working class, and the Roman Catholics among the middle class.

South Africa is more a protestant country due to its history. Check the basics. The crisis in South Africa has been caused i.e. by the ignorant government and the extremely patriarchal society, again.

That blows your idea right out of the water. Catholic countries do not have trhe lowest rates.

I say they don't have higher rates than other countries. Prove me wrong - good luck! - or your massive accusation against the pope goes down the drain.

Draw your own conclusions.

You give up? You're refuted. Whenever you repeat your accusation

With one stupid statement he (the pope) did irrepairable damage to the fight against HIV/AIDS.

I will remind you.

Herzblut

 

[qayak]

The RCC's notion towards condoms is based upon its fundamental decline of all kinds of contraceptives, which is obviously nonrelevant for gay sex.

In this context, condoms are not contraception, they are a barrier against disease.

The pope is a lying, unethical, immoral, sorry excuse for a human being who heads up an organization with a long history of atrocities and barbarism against the indigenous people it encountered around the world.

 

[Herzblut]

The pope is a lying, unethical, immoral, sorry excuse for a human being who heads up an organization with a long history of atrocities and barbarism against the indigenous people it encountered around the world.

Shrieking is no substitute for evidence.

H.

 

[quixotecoyote]

Gosh, what historical revisionism are you going to pull out your butt that denies Catholic involvement in the plunder and reshaping of Latin America

 

[qayak]

Here's an interesting document. If you will notice, in the section on prevention, I have highlighted the guideline relevent to condom use. I have also highlighted the section on raising awareness because any catholic organization would be unable to meet these obligations if they followed the directives of their leader.

Just so you know, civil society includes faith based organizations and many have signed the agreement including some Catholic organizations.

NONGOVERNMENTAL ORGANIZATION HIV/AIDS CODE OF PRACTICE: PROGRAMMING PRINCIPLES*

Cross-cutting issues

■ Our HIV/AIDS programmes are integrated to reach and meet the diverse needs of people living with HIV and affected communities.
■ Our HIV/AIDS programmes raise awareness and build the capacity of communities to respond to HIV/AIDS.
■ We advocate for an enabling environment that protects and promotes the rights of people living with HIV and affected communities and supports effective HIV/AIDS programmes. Voluntary Counselling and Testing (VCT)
■ We provide and/or advocate for voluntary counselling and testing services that are accessible and confidential.

HIV prevention

■ We provide and/or advocate for comprehensive HIV prevention programmes to meet the variety of needs of individuals and communities.
■ Our HIV prevention programmes enable individuals to develop the skills to protect themselves and/or others from HIV infection.
■ Our HIV prevention programmes ensure that individuals have access to and information about the use of commodities to prevent HIV infection.
■ We provide and/or advocate for comprehensive harm reduction programmes for people who inject drugs.

Treatment, care and support

■ We provide and/or advocate for comprehensive treatment, care and support programmes.
■ We enable people living with HIV and affected communities to meet their treatment, care and support needs.

Addressing stigma and discrimination

■ We enable people living with HIV and affected communities to understand their rights and respond to discrimination and its consequences.
■ We monitor and respond to systemic discrimination.
■ We enable communities to understand and address HIV/AIDS-related stigma.
■ We foster partnerships with human rights institutions, legal services and unions to promote and protect the human rights of people living with HIV and affected communities.

Source: Nongovernmental organization HIV/AIDS Code of Practice Project, 2004.
*The Code was developed jointly by ActionAid International, CARE USA, the Global Health
Council, the Global Network of People Living with HIV/AIDS (GNP
), Grupo Pela Vidda, the
Hong Kong AIDS Foundation, the International Council of AIDS Service Organizations (ICASO),
the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, the International Harm
Reduction Association, the International HIV/AIDS Alliance and the World Council of Churches.

 

[qayak]

Shrieking is no substitute for evidence.

You don't see the evidence because your head is buried up the pope's ass but it doesn't change the facts.

 

[ceo_esq]

As the studies I cited proofed condom use is one of the most powerful tools in preventing HIV/AIDS, how can you claim that the pope stating condoms cause HIV/AIDS is not a detriment to the fight?

The other problem is that the pope will not retract his words. He is supposed to be infallable and cannot change course without putting that in question.

What were the pope's precise words? Did he invoke infallibility when speaking them?

 

[quixotecoyote]

Did he invoke infallibility when speaking them?

Does it matter? Whether or not he does the infallibility ritual or not is only relevant for ultimately meaningless theological debate. The fact that he is the pope means that his words are accepted as truth by catholics (and that crowd that believes religious leaders of any stripe).

 

[articulett]

You don't see the evidence because your head is buried up the pope's ass but it doesn't change the facts.

Herzblut is like this?

 

[articulett]

Does it matter? Whether or not he does the infallibility ritual or not is only relevant for ultimately meaningless theological debate. The fact that he is the pope means that his words are accepted as truth by catholics (and that crowd that believes religious leaders of any stripe).

I'm with you. People have contracted and spread a deadly disease because of misinformation and false information by the papacy and assorted missionary organizations. No matter what sort of suffering comes at the hands of religion--there's always a slew of people to make excuses and shame the person pointing out the hypocrisy and barbarism of the holier-than-thou.

 

[The Atheist]

What were the pope's precise words? Did he invoke infallibility when speaking them?

He's had it explained twice already. Still doesn't understand.

 

[Herzblut]

You don't see the evidence because your head is buried up the pope's ass but it doesn't change the facts.

You didn't provide any quantifiable evidence to suggest that Benny did irrepairable damage to the fight against HIV/AIDS. You didn't even prove any damage whatsoever.

Herzblut

 

[qayak]

What were the pope's precise words? Did he invoke infallibility when speaking them?

You are arguing that catholics only listen to the pope when he invokes infallibility.

Care to explain how the catholic church got all those rules and regulations when the pope has only invoked infallibility once or twice?

 

[ceo_esq]

You are arguing that catholics only listen to the pope when he invokes infallibility.

I am not arguing anything. You're getting way ahead of yourself there. I am asking, first and most importantly, for the pope's actual words to which you are referring; and second, whether he invoked infallibility. You have not answered either question, although I gather from your response that the answer to the second question is "No." I only raised the second question about infallibility because you said that the pope "is supposed to be infallable and cannot change course without putting that in question." Obviously, if the pope says something on a non-infallible basis, he can change course without logically bringing into question the doctrine of infallibility, because that's not how their doctrine works. But that's a secondary consideration. If you could please answer the first question, we'll be getting somewhere.

 

[articulett]

ceo_esq, I believe that the Pope's position against contraception is part of his infallibility claims. When someone claims to speak for the creator of the universe, and it results in suffering of other human beings--surely, you'd not excuse it because the person didn't say, "this is part of my infallibility claim"? When Osama Bin Laden told people that Allah wanted them to drive airplanes into buildings, I don't think people have much of a defense if they say, "well, Osama wasn't speaking with his "infallible hat" on.

Do you think religion in present day times, is mostly helpful or mostly harmful? Do you think that any useful truths can come from faith or that churches have some sort of monopoly on producing moral people? Although, it's popular to claim as much, facts show otherwise.

Why would you defend the suffering caused by misinformation about condoms because the guy proffering them didn't say whether he was speaking "infallibly" or not?

This is what I mean by the endless tangents of the apologists. Why would you seek to condemn qayak rather than the pope? Quayak is not spreading information that kills people... he's spreading information that raises consciousness so hopefully fewer people will suffer due to religion inanity. I can only imagine that you guys don't see how readily you do this tap dancing for "god". Why do you defend even the ugliest aspects of religion by changing the subject?

 

[Herzblut]

You are arguing that catholics only listen to the pope when he invokes infallibility.

http://www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/1123/

From Spiked-online: After JPII
Virtually the only criticism made of John Paul II since his death concerns his refusal to endorse the promotion of condoms in response to the spread of HIV/Aids in developing countries. But why should people who are prepared to defy papal authority by engaging in extra-marital sexual activity be expected to obey a papal edict about using condoms?

Yeah, why the hell? Would you please finally descend to answer this obvious question? Only if you can, of course.

Furthermore, it is evident that millions of Catholics around the world are willing to defy papal authority and use contraceptive techniques to limit family size. If they are not willing to use such techniques to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases this suggests some other explanation than their deference to the Pope’s guidance.

Nice to read from people who adhere to rational thinking. A method that is largely unknown to some users here.

Herzblut

 

[The Atheist]

ceo_esq, I believe that the Pope's position against contraception is part of his infallibility claims.

As good a way as any to promote your ignorance on the subject. The RCC's rules have been around quite a lot longer than you and whether you think the pope's comments are infallible are of no consequence to either the RCC or the truth.

Keep saying it, though. People here clearly believe it, despite a claimed love of "skepticism, facts and evidence"

Utter baloney.