Alernatives: Cosmological redshift/BBE

Rough estimate of gravitational blueshift in the spectra of astronomical objects, due to our spectroscopes being on the surface of the Earth.

The gravitational redshift formula is

z (the redshift) = GM/(rc^2)

where G is the gravitational constant, c is the usual suspect, M is the mass of the Earth, and r the distance from the Earth's core to its surface.

Google helps me find the numbers I need (I'm only doing a rough estimate, so I can be a little sloppy with the accuracy):
G = 6.7 x 10^-11 m^3 kg^-1 s^-2
c = 3 x 10^8 m/s
M = 6 x 10^24 kg
r = 6.4 x 10^6 m

So plugging them in and turning the handle I get:

z = -7 x 10^-10 (the minus sign indicates a blueshift).

That's trivial (unless I made a booboo with my calculation - would anyone care to provide independent, objective verification?).

Anyone want to do a similar calculation for the gravitational redshift due to our spectroscopes being in the gravitational field of the Sun?
 
Continuing the tutorial on how astronomers distinguish between various causes (or combos thereof) of redshift, to explain the redshifts they infer in the spectra of astronomical objects they observe.

I said I would next take a look at spectra, and how 'redshift' could be estimated, building partly on what Skwinty wrote about the line spectra of elements*.

However, I'm going to leave that for now, and take a look at the sky.

With our eyes - unaided by telescopes, glasses, etc - we can see, on a dark cloudless night, twinkling points of light and fuzzy patches of light (and the Moon); technically, "point sources" and "extended sources". With telescopes and better detectors than our eyes, we can see that some of the point sources can be "resolved", into lots of other point sources and/or extended sources. With various detectors, we can extend the range of wavelengths we can 'see', through telescopes here on the surface of the Earth, from the UV (~300 nm) through to the IR (~1 µ), with small windows at longer wavelengths in the IR.

Well over a century ago a simple explanation for the sources of light in the night sky which moved, relative to the others, over periods of minutes to hours to (sometimes) days was accepted - they are bodies in motion within the solar system: planets, dwarf planets, satellites/moons, comets, asteroids, TNOs, ... Two kinds of extended source are included: zodiacal light and gegenschein.

When radio 'telescopes' were turned to the sky, and when 'telescopes' tuned to other parts of the electromagnetic (EM) spectrum - from TeV gammas to x-rays to UV and IR that the atmosphere blocked - started observing above the atmosphere, point sources and extended sources were also found, and once again solar system sources (objects) could be easily distinguished from all other sources.

Of course, the sky looks quite different in other parts of EM spectrum than it does in the visual (or optical) waveband, but otherwise ...

... well, not quite. In the gamma region (and to a lesser extent the hard x-ray), the sky is dominated by flashes, sometimes intensely bright bursts that last mere milliseconds to perhaps a second or two, and it took many years before these could be shown to be sources way, way beyond the solar system (do you recall how this conclusion became firm, Skwinty?). In the radio region, some point sources are periodic flashes, of such extreme perfection that they are more accurate than even the most expensive of wrist watches (of course there are periodic variables - point sources - in the visual waveband too, but these pulsars - as they were quickly called - are qualitatively different).

The superb pattern-detection machine that is the human brain sorted all the non-solar system sources into neat boxes, based on the characteristics of the sources: stars, galaxies, planetary nebulae (PNe), GRBs, quasars, pulsars, and so on. The important thing to note about these classifications is that they are made on the basis of criteria such as whether they are point sources or not, how bright they are in one waveband vs another (e.g. 'quasar' originally meant 'quasi-stellar radio source'), the type of time-variability they exhibit, their shape and key features in their spectra (e.g. galaxies vs PNe), and so on.

Of course, humans being what they are, simply having a nice label for something - 'star', for example - is not enough; we want to what these things 'really' are!

And as physics developed - from Newton to Maxwell to Einstein to the founders of quantum mechanics to ... - once a really good answer to 'what X really is' was to hand, the purely empirical meaning of a classification came to take on aspects of the explanation, to the point where distinguishing between pure description (features of what is observed) and explanation (what we conclude it 'really is') is often blurred and sometimes difficult to do. For example 'pulsar' is BOTH {insert description, to do with radio flashes} AND a neutron star {insert qualifiers about the radio flashes and their observability}.

With me so far, Skwinty (and PS, and Z??)?

The classification of 'things we see in the sky' is critical to the answer to the question of how astronomers can distinguish one source of redshift - in the spectrum of an astronomical object (source) - from another.

And classifications, and their bases, are also key to understanding why much of what you read on crackpot websites is nonsense (or just plain wrong); for example, there is, very often, muddle-headedness and confusion over what 'a quasar' is (to take just one example), however, because few laypersons understand the bases of classifications (and, in general, the key role of consistent definitions in science), they are easily fooled by seemingly plausible strings of words.

And yeah, at times this can seem like pedantry gone mad, but it's very important that you grok this ... if only because getting your definitions clean and consistent, and using your terms consistently, etc is an important part of what doing science is all about**.

* this is what he actually wrote: "the spectra in question are compared to spectra obtained in a laboratory so that one would know the element or elements that the spectra are showing, otherwise the spectra would be meaningless. These spectra could be either emission or absorption spectra."

** for an example of just how many knots you can tie yourself into if you muddle definitions and terms up, you have to look no further than MM's posts (e.g. what is "EU/PC theory"? "General Relativity as taught by Einstein"? "negative pressure"? "Dark Energy"? ...)
 
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Skwinty's flu may still be messing with his head.

Yes the flu is still messing with my head and not having a printer to print the thread doesn't help either.
I calculated the blueshift due to earth's motion and ignored gravity.
My bad not remembering the question correctly.:o
 
With me so far, Skwinty (and PS, and Z??)?

OK, but my questions concerned the theoretical basis for attributing the cosmological red shift to cosmological expansion and not other possible causes like "tired light." Answers provided by you and s.i. have been quite helpful, thanks.
 
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In the gamma region (and to a lesser extent the hard x-ray), the sky is dominated by flashes, sometimes intensely bright bursts that last mere milliseconds to perhaps a second or two, and it took many years before these could be shown to be sources way, way beyond the solar system (do you recall how this conclusion became firm, Skwinty?).

I would say that the HESS telescope, by capturing the cerenkov radiation emitted whem gamma rays interact with the atmosphere.
Please continue.:cool:
 
Spectroscopy, a start.

Line spectra illustrates the two (of three) initial paths "we" took, in our search for "alternative explanations for the redshift"; namely, empirical (controlled experiments in the lab) results followed by developing a theory to account for them, and theoretical prediction followed by empirical validation (or verification).

"Lines"* were observed in the spectra of many things long before they could be explained by (physics) theory, and chemists used the lines in the (flame, spark, arc, ...) spectra of unknown substances as a tool for determining (elemental) composition well before anyone knew why each element produced a unique line spectrum; indeed, one element was discovered from its line spectrum in an astronomical object, a quarter century or so before it was found here on Earth (which element, and which astronomical object?).

Today, the line spectra of atoms and atomic ions are understood in terms of electronic transitions between allowed energy states of those atoms and ions, and the match between theory and experimental result is perfect (i.e. all observed lines are exactly where they should be, according to theory, and all lines predicted from theory are observed, to within the errors/uncertainties of either the measurement or the theoretical calculation).

And the same goes for quantum transitions in molecules (rotations and vibrations; these produce "bands"), nuclei (transitions between allowed energy states of various nuclei), and particles (e.g. electron-positron annihilation; this produces both a line and a continuum).

But there is much, much, much more to spectroscopy than just lines!

For starters, no line is perfectly narrow; every line has a width, and a shape - if you magnify the region in which you see a line in a spectrum, looking at a narrower and narrower range of wavelengths, the width - and shape - become clear.

For seconds, the lines have different intensities, and the way the intensities vary - even for just one element - is both fascinating and extremely helpful for astronomers.

Now as Skwinty has already noted, to get a redshift from the spectrum of an astronomical object (source), all you need is to identify the lines in it and measure their wavelengths (in the observed spectrum) ... oh, and have a convenient table of 'lab frame' or 'rest frame' wavelengths handy.

And to fast forward: the spectra of almost all galaxies, all quasars, all GRBs, almost all supernovae, (more?) are redshifted (wrt the solar system barycentre) ... and it is an explanation of this objective fact that we are interested in ... particularly whether there are any "alternative" explanations.

Suppose we (somehow) have a ball of hydrogen - in a transparent glass sphere perhaps. Suppose we heat it up, and observe whatever light comes out with a spectroscope (we can also repeat with the ball backlight by bright white light). Suppose we can measure the temperature of the hydrogen. How does the observed spectrum, the lines and their strengths - of hydrogen - change as the temperature rises?

Suppose we use helium instead; how does its spectrum change as the temperature rises?

Suppose we use oxygen, sodium, mercury, carbon, ...

The point is this: you can use the characteristic changes in the spectrum of an element - in its gas phase - with temperature as a means to make estimates of the temperature of that gas.

Now look at just one line, in higher resolution. Ignore how its strength changes with temperature and look only at its width and shape. As the temperature rises, the line will become broader ... do you know why? HINT: it's one example of the Doppler effect.

And so on ... electric fields, magnetic fields, pressure, and other local factors affect line strengths, widths, and shapes (a.k.a. profiles); reversing the logic allows you to estimate the local electric field strength, the local magnetic field strength, etc.**

And it's not just the local environment of the atoms, ions, nuclei etc which produce the lines; astronomical objects are so far away that the smallest part of any that we can see separately is huge - at a distance of only 1 parsec, for example, 1" is two au! So, for example, if a star is something like our Sun, and we observe a star with a spectroscope that has an angular resolution of 1", and the star is rotating, and we see it from a direction other than looking straight down at a pole, and if all each of the spectral lines of each the myriad of points on the star are perfectly thin, would we, here on Earth, see perfectly thin lines? No! Why not?

Here's the bottom line: spectroscopy has enormous potential, as a tool; analysis of the line spectrum of an astronomical object can - potentially - tell a great deal about the physical conditions of the source (or of the intervening material, or both).

We need one more major piece of astronomy (well, two actually) before we are ready to start to get to the heart of our search for "alternative explanations for the redshift".

* does anyone know why they are called lines?
** In principle of course; there are limits to how easily - or if at all - a line spectrum can be analysed to give estimates of these ...
 
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indeed, one element was discovered from its line spectrum in an astronomical object, a quarter century or so before it was found here on Earth (which element, and which astronomical object?).

I would say Helium. It was discovered through spectroscopy of the light emitted from the sun.



Now look at just one line, in higher resolution. Ignore how its strength changes with temperature and look only at its width and shape. As the temperature rises, the line will become broader ... do you know why? HINT: it's one example of the Doppler effect.

The fact that temperature increases indicates excitation of the atoms, which could be construed as additional motion of the atoms.
 
* does anyone know why they are called lines?
...

doesn't this name come from the narrow slit or "line" of the spectroscope.

ETA: on second thought, it's the fact that the prism in the spectroscope disperses the incoming light into lines in accordance with wavelength
 
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OK, but my questions concerned the theoretical basis for attributing the cosmological red shift to cosmological expansion and not other possible causes like "tired light." Answers provided by you and s.i. have been quite helpful, thanks.
Ah ...

... when I first read this post of yours it had just one word ("OK"); now it has more ...

We're getting there ... what we have so far is a list of causes of redshift, derived from an extensive search of the relevant literature, and throwing out any cause that is not backed by either empirical ('in the lab') tests or independent verification (this weeds out stuff in papers that has boo-boos in it, for example).

We also have a list of astronomical object classifications ('stars', 'galaxies', and so on), together with all the details we may ever require concerning the classification criteria and the status of 'what they really are' (together with all necessary reasons, reasoning, and backup data, of course).

Finally, we have a toolkit of spectroscopic techniques that we can use to examine each kind of astronomical object (source).

We're missing the third source of possible causes of redshift, how to measure distances, and a more detailed look at the classes of astronomical object (source) that are of interest wrt "cosmological expansion". We may also need to establish some other stuff, from the standard astronomy textbook; let's see ...
 
I would say Helium. It was discovered through spectroscopy of the light emitted from the sun.
Yep!

The fact that temperature increases indicates excitation of the atoms, which could be construed as additional motion of the atoms.
Sorta ...

What comes from atomic theory (application of quantum mechanics to the atom) is a prediction of the wavelength of a particular transition. That prediction assumes that the observer (your spectroscope) and source (the atom undergoing the transition) are not in relative motion; i.e. you and the atom are in the same frame.

However, atoms (and atomic ions) in a gas (or plasma) are in motion .... that's what gives rise to the observed pressure. If the atom is moving towards you at the time it undergoes the transition (and so emits a photon)*, you will perceive the 'line' to be blueshifted, due to the Doppler effect. Conversely, moving away gives redshifting, and moving at an angle means there is a component of the relative velocity that is either towards or away from you.** The faster the relative (component of) motion, the greater the blue/redshift.

From theory, or from a particularly exacting experiment, you can estimate/measure the distribution of speeds of the atoms; allowing for the fact that you observe only one component of the velocity, you can turn that distribution of speeds into an intensity vs blue/redshift graph (based on the Doppler effect), which gives you a line shape (or line profile). As the temperature of the gas increases, there are (relatively) more atoms moving at higher speeds, so the line grows broader. Hence one term, Doppler broadening.

* this works just as well for absorptions, and so 'dark lines' in the spectrum
** there is a transverse Doppler effect, but we can ignore it here
 
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Ah ...

... when I first read this post of yours it had just one word ("OK"); now it has more ...

We're getting there ... what we have so far is a list of causes of redshift, derived from an extensive search of the relevant literature, and throwing out any cause that is not backed by either empirical ('in the lab') tests or independent verification (this weeds out stuff in papers that has boo-boos in it, for example).

We also have a list of astronomical object classifications ('stars', 'galaxies', and so on), together with all the details we may ever require concerning the classification criteria and the status of 'what they really are' (together with all necessary reasons, reasoning, and backup data, of course).

Finally, we have a toolkit of spectroscopic techniques that we can use to examine each kind of astronomical object (source).

We're missing the third source of possible causes of redshift, how to measure distances, and a more detailed look at the classes of astronomical object (source) that are of interest wrt "cosmological expansion". We may also need to establish some other stuff, from the standard astronomy textbook; let's see ...

The simplest explanation of the cosmological red shift is, that's what happens to light as it travels long distances through space. Would an application of Occam's razor lead us to this answer?

As I understand things, this has been ruled out because:

1. There is no theoretical basis for light behaving this way?
2. There are numerous other observations supporting the BB hypothesis? (this has been already covered amply by you and s.i.)
3. Other observations clearly rule out this possible cause of the red shift? (are there any?)
4. Physicists don't like this explanation because they have been engaging in a worldwide conspiracy to dupe us all so they can take over the world?:eek:
5. Any or all of the above?
6. Something else?
 
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4. Physicists don't like this explanation because they have been engaging in a worldwide conspiracy to dupe us all so they can take over the world?:eek:

Pinky: What are we doing today Brain?
Brain: Same as yesterday Pinky, taking over the world.

I loved that tv program, don't see it any more.
 
Peculiar Velocities, Fingers of God?

Please explain
Sure thing ...

... but first, how much of what I've written in my last several posts in this thread have you understood? Do you have any questions on anything in any of them?

... and second, what did you find when you did some research of your own into these terms? In particular, what definitions did you turn up?

... and finally, both these need to wait until I've covered "how to measure distances, and [taken] a more detailed look at the classes of astronomical object (source) that are of interest wrt "cosmological expansion"". "We may also need to [go over] some other stuff, from the standard astronomy textbook."

Well, actually it's not finally ...

... finally is a sincere request that you take the time and trouble to come to grips with this stuff; one-liners are almost certain to be so misleading as to be worse than silence.
 
DeiRenDopa said:
Ah ...

... when I first read this post of yours it had just one word ("OK"); now it has more ...

We're getting there ... what we have so far is a list of causes of redshift, derived from an extensive search of the relevant literature, and throwing out any cause that is not backed by either empirical ('in the lab') tests or independent verification (this weeds out stuff in papers that has boo-boos in it, for example).

We also have a list of astronomical object classifications ('stars', 'galaxies', and so on), together with all the details we may ever require concerning the classification criteria and the status of 'what they really are' (together with all necessary reasons, reasoning, and backup data, of course).

Finally, we have a toolkit of spectroscopic techniques that we can use to examine each kind of astronomical object (source).

We're missing the third source of possible causes of redshift, how to measure distances, and a more detailed look at the classes of astronomical object (source) that are of interest wrt "cosmological expansion". We may also need to establish some other stuff, from the standard astronomy textbook; let's see ...
The simplest explanation of the cosmological red shift is, that's what happens to light as it travels long distances through space.
I'm curious ...

... in what sense do you think this explanation is "simplest"?

I mean, doesn't the very question itself imply an acceptance of a great deal of modern physics, including all (or most) of the mind-twisting that comes from trying to interpret quantum mechanics (rather than just shutting up and calculating)?

After all, the very terms "cosmological red shift" and "space" and "travels long distances" are mere shorthands for implications derived from a ginormous number of observational and experimental results stretching back centuries, aren't they?

Except, perhaps, in the sense that what you wrote is a thinly-disguised tautology ...

Would an application of Occam's razor lead us to this answer?
It might.

But applying it requires that you can recognise parsimony when you see it ...

As I understand things, this has been ruled out because:

1. There is no theoretical basis for light behaving this way?
2. There are numerous other observations supporting the BB hypothesis? (this has been already covered amply by you and s.i.)
3. Other observations clearly rule out this possible cause of the red shift? (are there any?)
4. Physicists don't like this explanation because they have been engaging in a worldwide conspiracy to dupe us all so they can take over the world?:eek:
5. Any or all of the above?
6. Something else?
I'll gladly go over these (well, not ALL of them! :p) once I've finished the astronomy tutorial (that which relevant to your original question anyway); OK?
 
The simplest explanation of the cosmological red shift is, that's what happens to light as it travels long distances through space. Would an application of Occam's razor lead us to this answer?

As I understand things, this has been ruled out because:

1. There is no theoretical basis for light behaving this way?

It's more than that. Not only is there not a good theoretical reason for it to happen, there are good theoretical reasons for it to not happen. In particular, if light loses energy as it travels by any mechanism other than space expanding, it will interfere with itself. That's why light travels in a straight line in a vacuum, but can bend as it passes through, say, a diffraction slit (it can't interfere with itself on the side that's blocked, so it can bend that way). That interference prohibits a redshift, UNLESS the mechanism which redshifts it does so incoherently (ie, no correlation in the phase of any shifted light). So we can rule out coherent redshifts as being theoretically prohibited. For incoherent redshift mechanisms, we need observations (more below).

3. Other observations clearly rule out this possible cause of the red shift? (are there any?)

If you allow for an incoherent redshift mechanism so that light won't interfere with itself, then the same thing will happen that happens with a diffraction slit: the light will be able to bend, precisely because it's not interfering with itself. So you will necessarily get blurring by any non-prohibited "tired light" mechanism, regardless of the details. Such blurring is not observed. So the lack of blurring (both in energy and angle) rule out tired light theories.
 
DeiRenDopa
I'm curious ...

... in what sense do you think this explanation is "simplest"?

Well, that's a good question. It would simply be an acceptance of the nature of space and EM waves: light losses energy as it travels along, end of discussion. It's no different than accepting the charge of the electron -- that's the way it is! Wasn't this the kind of reasoning Einstein used to develop SR? He accepted that the velocity of light does not change -- period! Then, he developed the consequences of that reality using the Lorentz transformation.

Ziggurat
It's more than that. Not only is there not a good theoretical reason for it to happen, there are good theoretical reasons for it to not happen. In particular, if light loses energy as it travels by any mechanism other than space expanding, it will interfere with itself. That's why light travels in a straight line in a vacuum, but can bend as it passes through, say, a diffraction slit (it can't interfere with itself on the side that's blocked, so it can bend that way). That interference prohibits a redshift, UNLESS the mechanism which redshifts it does so incoherently (ie, no correlation in the phase of any shifted light). So we can rule out coherent redshifts as being theoretically prohibited. For incoherent redshift mechanisms, we need observations (more below).

Well, I'll just have to accept that explanation. I don't know enough physics to understand why a decrease in the frequency (or energy) of light would do that. Over the distances light would travel in a lab, would we be able to detect that interference?
 
DeiRenDopa said:
I'm curious ...

... in what sense do you think this explanation is "simplest"?
Well, that's a good question. It would simply be an acceptance of the nature of space and EM waves: light losses energy as it travels along, end of discussion.
Um, ... no.

You see, "light" is photons, and there are some theories in physics in which photons play a rather important role, and at least one of those theories is the most stringently tested of all theories, period.

Then there's Noether's (first) theorem, which links invariance under translations in time to conservation of energy; mess with the latter and the former goes "poof!"

Not to mention the role of "light" in GR, null geodesics and all.

So I guess that, while "the simplest explanation of the cosmological red shift is, that's what happens to light as it travels long distances through space" may, indeed, be simplest for "cosmological red shift", in one fell swoop it makes great swathes of otherwise well-established physics suddenly un-simple.

It's no different than accepting the charge of the electron -- that's the way it is!
As I think I've just shown, it is about as different as it is possible to imagine.

Wasn't this the kind of reasoning Einstein used to develop SR? He accepted that the velocity of light does not change -- period! Then, he developed the consequences of that reality using the Lorentz transformation.

[...]
Indeed.

So, if you'd like to develop the consequences of this new reality ...

ETA: one of the things that SR did was, in one fell swoop, simplify great swathes of physics that was labouring under anomalies, un-simple stuff, etc; again, just about the opposite of what 'tired light' - as you proposed it - would do ...
 
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Well, I'll just have to accept that explanation. I don't know enough physics to understand why a decrease in the frequency (or energy) of light would do that.

Well, one way of thinking about is is to consider what happens if you were to set up a laser. You've got this light being shown at some frequency from one spot to another, with no change in relative position or velocity for the two. This light acts like a clock for the sender: each oscillation marks the passing of one period for that sender. Now, let's say the receiver is detecting that light at some slower frequency, but the light is otherwise unperturbed. He's going to conclude that the sender's clock is running slower. But that's not right: if they're sitting still with respect to each other, their clocks have to be running at the same rates. So that doesn't work. Unless, of course, we blur the signal. If the coherent laser beam gets spread out, then the signal won't act like a clock any more by the time it reaches the observer. It will be red shifted, but the decoherence will mean that the observer can't use it to measure the sender's clock, so we don't have a problem. If we blur the signal.

But the signal from distant galaxies isn't blurred. Their clocks are running slow. Which means that they can't be sitting still relative to us.

Over the distances light would travel in a lab, would we be able to detect that interference?

That specific interference? Probably not. But we can establish the general rules for interference pretty darned well, and conclude with confidence that they apply rather universally.
 

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