Al Gore's Ethanol Epiphany

Just thinking said:
Evidence? Diluted gasoline (10% alcohol/ethanol) has less energy per volume. Yes, it yields higher octane, but that's not more energy.
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Liter per liter you're correct, which is why you have to use more fuel to make up for it.

I converted my 91 MR2 turbo from 93 octane gasoline to E85. I had to add about 20% more fuel to all fuel cells to obtain the proper fuel to air ratio. After doing this I was able to add additional timing which netted 20% more torque.

The next motor is being built with a higher compression ratio to further take advantage of the properties of E85. I'll obtain another 10% in torque.

Puppycow said:
Are you are willing to pay the full unsubsidized cost (something like an extra 66 cents per gallon) for that sort of fuel over regular gasoline?

If so, and if there are others like you, there may be a market for it even without government subsidies.
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E85 is about 10% less than 93 octane, which according to your figure would put it at about $4 per gallon today. It would cost between $6 - $7 per gallon for race fuel with similar properties as E85. So yes, I would gladly pay the unsubsidized price.

Just thinking said:
But now you're in the realm of serious engine modifications, which is OK if that's what you're into. (I am, myself.) But for the other 99.9%, I think we do better with straight gasoline at proper octane levels.
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Electronic engine management does wonders.
 
Howie Felterbush said:
To run your grocery getter on alcohol, you'd need to change the fuel lines and a few other things, but the hard parts of the engine would stay the same.
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That and kiss your warranty good bye.:)

I've seen a few propane and natural gas factory conversions, but never any for running alcohol. I heard Volkswagon had a few for the Brazilian market, but I don't know if that was pure alcohol or if it was even true???
 
3bodyproblem said:
That and kiss your warranty good bye.:)

I've seen a few propane and natural gas factory conversions, but never any for running alcohol. I heard Volkswagon had a few for the Brazilian market, but I don't know if that was pure alcohol or if it was even true???
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If you have a vehicle with a carburetor, (which is what you'd need to carry out the conversion I suggested) I'm guessing it's out of warranty anyway.:D
 
Howie Felterbush said:
If you have a vehicle with a carburetor, (which is what you'd need to carry out the conversion I suggested) I'm guessing it's out of warranty anyway.:D
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lol, aside from my bike, the last vehicle I was in that had a carb was an IHRA Pro Stock car. Horrible gas mileage.
 
3bodyproblem said:
That and kiss your warranty good bye.:)

I've seen a few propane and natural gas factory conversions, but never any for running alcohol. I heard Volkswagon had a few for the Brazilian market, but I don't know if that was pure alcohol or if it was even true???
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My last visit to Brazil was over 20 years ago, but even then there were plenty of alcohol fueled VW Bugs on the road.
 
Kestrel said:
My last visit to Brazil was over 20 years ago, but even then there were plenty of alcohol fueled VW Bugs on the road.
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Works better there. It is never cold.

When it is too cold, there is not enough alcohol vapor in the fuel mist to initiate combustion with the spark.

I had some friends who tried to design an alcohol car, the problem was that they had to pre-heat the alcohol, and the pre-heater was a fire hazard. They were good engineers and machinists, but they could not make the thing safe and reliable.
 
ServiceSoon said:
E85 is about 10% less than 93 octane, which according to your figure would put it at about $4 per gallon today. It would cost between $6 - $7 per gallon for race fuel with similar properties as E85. So yes, I would gladly pay the unsubsidized price.
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Oh, I see. You race cars then?

That's going to be a niche market. Most people just care about mpg, not mph. And the government certainly doesn't need to subsidize mph.
 
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3bodyproblem said:
If I'm not mistaken the problem with this is that it burns too hot and reduces the engine's lifespan. You'd have to use exotic metals and expensive production methods to get an engine to last 250 000- 500 000 miles with high octane fuels. If such an engine were to fail prematurely the cost of replacement would be astronomical in comparison.
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Getting a 425 horsepower engine to last even 80,000 miles under the heavy foot of a guy who still thinks he's a teenager would be a feat in itself. Alcohol produces less carbon ridging AFAIK so I would think that, except for any rubber or (maybe) phenolic parts, things should last longer, provided you can keep the water out of the alcohol
 
Howie Felterbush said:
I wouldn't say "serious" engine mods are needed to run alcohol in a gasoline engine. This has been a common racetrack cheat for decades. Bigger jets in the carb, advance the timing and go up a couple heat ranges on the spark plugs and you're ready to eat everyone's lunch.


This is on the track, of course. To run your grocery getter on alcohol, you'd need to change the fuel lines and a few other things, but the hard parts of the engine would stay the same.
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I already had hard fuel line, my major issue was water. Even in Arizona, overnight there would be water, MAJOR water in the alcohol. I saw some purge systems for farm tractors but I never did get a solution that worked besides just plain emptying the tank
 
pipelineaudio said:
I already had hard fuel line, my major issue was water. Even in Arizona, overnight there would be water, MAJOR water in the alcohol. I saw some purge systems for farm tractors but I never did get a solution that worked besides just plain emptying the tank
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You should see if Dial-A-Jet has a float bowl application for your carb. They used to be pretty popular for motorcycles and snowmobiles that people wanted to run on alcohol or some other non-gasoline fuel. If I recall correctly, they had an automatic purging system that removed water from the system during use. I don't even know if they're still around, but it's something to look into.
 
pipelineaudio said:
I already had hard fuel line, my major issue was water. Even in Arizona, overnight there would be water, MAJOR water in the alcohol. I saw some purge systems for farm tractors but I never did get a solution that worked besides just plain emptying the tank
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I know a lot of boats use a water separating fuel filter. You have to drain the bowl manually, as I recall, and I don't know if they work with alcohol, but it could be worth looking into.
 
MostlyHarmless said:
I know a lot of boats use a water separating fuel filter. You have to drain the bowl manually, as I recall, and I don't know if they work with alcohol, but it could be worth looking into.
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Removing water from ethanol is a very difficult task. Requires distillation or freezing because the two liquids are miscible - they will never separate by density.

Worse, fully anhydrous ethanol is VERY difficult to achieve because the solution reaches a point where the water and alcohol boil out at the same temperature, and further distillation is fruitless. This can be gotten over by adding a third chemical that breaks that behavior...
 
Presumably to make some democrats happy, the tax compromise that's in the works now includes an extension of the ethanol subsidies. link
 
varwoche said:
Presumably to make some democrats happy, the tax compromise that's in the works now includes an extension of the ethanol subsidies. link
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Actually, that crosses the aisle; "Red state" congresscritters who have large ethanol operations in their districts favor it no matter which side they are on.

The Republicans are happy to blame it on the Democrats, however.
 
BenBurch said:
Removing water from ethanol is a very difficult task. Requires distillation or freezing because the two liquids are miscible - they will never separate by density.

Worse, fully anhydrous ethanol is VERY difficult to achieve because the solution reaches a point where the water and alcohol boil out at the same temperature, and further distillation is fruitless. This can be gotten over by adding a third chemical that breaks that behavior...
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Typically Benzene, which is why it is a REALLY bad idea to try and drink pure Ethanol as a mixer.
 
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