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AIDS (hah)

Dabljuh said:
Umm... no. Ever caught a "cold" ?
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Yes, and never because I had been "cold". In fact, mostly because I hadn't.

The pathogens that cause the actual symptoms are latent in every person, its the cold that causes constriction of capillar vessels on mucosa and thus prevents the immune system from intervening, thus allowing the pathogens to develop to a point where they cause symptoms. Or so I'm told.
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You're told wrong. Viruses don't appear magically from lack of heat. In fact, they don't like the cold at all.

Hunger causes immune system depression.
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Only in the most extreme cases, surely.

The body requires a large amount of ressources and chemical energy to fight disease. Ever heard of vitamin C?
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The damn thing we can't synthesise ?

I refuse to answer this question because it is a fallacy.
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The question is a fallacy. Right. Good one.

The immune system *works* in all cases, "without" an immune system you'd be dead within 1-3 days, even absent of viral or bacterial pathogens (due to body-internal waste processes that are usually regulated by the immune system, but also things like assisting the digestion of proteins).
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EXCELLENT!!! Than you agree that a virus that weakens your immune system puts you at greater risk of early death.

However the mechanism by which HIV supposedly destroys the T-Helper cell population is not known
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I'd have guessed that it does so the same way all viruses destroy all cells: reproduction.

Now, "Do you think you've got a better chance of survival if your immune system works when you get a disease?"... What should I say? Yes? No? I don't know? Your mother!
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The correct answer was "yes". But thanks for playing.
 
I'm waiting for somebody, I can't remember who, to show up, because they know almost everything about HIV and AIDS. Now that the thread is split, maybe a new voice will arise.

Now, do I post the next list, the one that starts with AIDS is..

do I post it here? Or there?
 
Belz... said:
I thought retroviruses were strands of DNA hidden in our genome... ??
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Wiki -
A retrovirus is any virus belonging to the viral family Retroviridae. They are enveloped viruses possessing a RNA genome, and replicate via a DNA intermediate. Retroviruses rely on the enzyme reverse transcriptase to perform the reverse transcription of its genome from RNA into DNA, which can then be integrated into the host's genome with an integrase enzyme. The virus then replicates as part of the cell's DNA.
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That clears it all up, doesn't it?
 
Antiquehunter said:
I don't disagree with much of this statement - I have many friends who have been HIV+ for a very long time, and while they have battled a number of HIV-related illnesses, they are going strong after 20+ years of seroconversion. I refer specifically to three HIV+ friends - and I'm not sure if the medical community would say they've ever developed full-blown 'AIDS' - they certainly have a very intensive medication and health regimen. And, they all have spent far more time in and out of doctor's offices and hospitals than I have.
...
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Let's not get confused in this discussion. 'W' claims HIV is just coincidental to AIDS. And he goes on to say the real mortality is coming from a number of other things including AZT.

Poppycock.

Then you have this discussion where you are pointing out that HIV is now a treatable disease. That is a completely different discussion.

I'll have to read more of robinson's post above. He has posted all sorts of erroneous facts. I've been addressing them as he posts them. Now there is a new slew of 'facts' there I need to review before I can comment.
 
Belz... said:
I thought retroviruses were strands of DNA hidden in our genome... ??
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There has been recent genetic research suggesting some ancient retroviruses have become part of the human genome.

...human endogenous retroviruses make up a substantial part of the human genome.

Tree of Life classifications of viruses.
Viruses
Lovisolo, O., R. Hull, and O. Rösler. 2003. Coevolution of viruses with hosts and vectors and possible paleontology. Advances in Virus Research 62:325-379. ...
www.tolweb.org/Viruses/5 - 38k - Cached - Similar pages
DNA-RNA Reverse Transcribing Viruses
DNA-RNA Reverse Transcribing Viruses. Version 22 December 2005 (temporary). ... Explore Other Groups. other Viruses. Double-stranded RNA Viruses ...
www.tolweb.org/DNA-RNA_Reverse_Transcribing_Viruses/21831 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Double-stranded DNA Viruses
Vaccinia virus is normally confined to cattle, but is conveyed to humans through vaccination, thereby, imparting immunity to the smallpox virus. ...
tolweb.org/Double-stranded_DNA_Viruses/21830 - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
Double-stranded RNA Viruses
Double-stranded RNA Viruses. Version 05 February 2006 (temporary). ... Double-stranded RNA Viruses; Single-stranded Negative Sense RNA Viruses ...
www.tolweb.org/Double-stranded_RNA_Viruses/21833 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Single-stranded DNA Viruses
Single-stranded DNA Viruses. Version 22 December 2005 (temporary). http://tolweb.org/Single-stranded_DNA_Viruses/21829/2005.12.22 in The Tree of Life Web ...
tolweb.org/Single-stranded_DNA_Viruses/21829 - 26k - Cached - Similar pages
Single-stranded Negative Sense RNA Viruses
Arenaviridae are RNA viruses whose particles are spherical and have an average diameter of 110-130 nanometers. Arenaviridae members are zoonotic, ...
www.tolweb.org/Single-stranded_Negative_Sense_RNA_Viruses/21834 - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
Single-stranded Positive Sense RNA Viruses
Single-stranded Positive Sense RNA Viruses. Click on an image to view larger version & data in a new window. Click on an image to view larger version & data ...
www.tolweb.org/Single-stranded_Positive_Sense_RNA_Viruses/21835 - 28k - Cached - Similar pages
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Belz... said:
I thought retroviruses were strands of DNA hidden in our genome... ??
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My beef is with the statement "HIV isn't just one retrovirus". HIV-1 is just one retrovirus. It's simply a matter of defintion. Robinson thinks that because HIV-1 has many subtypes then it is more than just one retrovirus, but it is still defined as a single virus HIV-1.
 
For those who are interested, I have a link to a series of articles in Science which reject the hypotheses of Duesberg about AIDS/HIV. Its now over 10 years old, but that in itself is interesting - since then, Duesberg's arguments have not really advanced or changed tack, nor those of other denialists.

They are worth a good read as they cover many of the principles behind the science of HIV/AIDS, and they also show how Duesberg tries to misrepresent data and spin studies so they seem to support his view.
 
I just read the most recent Duesberg stuff. http://www.smart-publications.com/articles/MOM-duesberg.php
http://www.duesberg.com/
First, AIDS is not infectious. For example, between 1981 and 2004, 930,000 American AIDS patients had been treated by doctors or health care workers. But, despite the absence of an anti-AIDS vaccine, there is not a single case report in the peer-reviewed literature of a doctor or health care worker, who has ever contracted AIDS (rather than just HIV) from any one of these 930,000 patients in now twenty-five years. Likewise, not one of the thousands of HIV-AIDS researchers has ever contracted AIDS from HIV, nor is there an AIDS epidemic among prostitutes anywhere in the world.
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WTF??? What planet does he live on?

He makes some good points, but then goes off into WTF??? mode, I can't fathom it. Yet this is a very intelligent person, so ...


His pointing out the statistics on HIV/AIDS does match what the data shows. Most AIDS patients and deaths (except Africa), are Homobisexual men, with I.V. drug use. That real fact is changing a little right now, but there is no doubt it has been true for a long time.

He is also correct about the very low rate of Doctors and Health care workers who have come down with AIDS. (A good thing, in my opinion). If it was anywhere near as contagious as HVB or HVC, it would suck.The split thread is a bit more interesting to me, I'm trying to bring a conversation around to Cuba and HIV/AIDS there. Unlike most of the statistics and reports from around the world, there is little doubt about the data from Cuba.
 
Even if Duesberg is right on his prostitute comments - this is likely not due to correlation of the idea that HIV (AIDS) isn't infectious. Wouldn't a more plausible scenario be that prostitutes as a whole are more likely to take sexual health VERY seriously, and be more likely to take appropriate precautions (ie condom use) before engaging in high-risk activity?
 
Good point. In my are of the world, prostitutes who don't use condoms, and use I.V. drugs or smoke crack, have a very high HIV/AIDS rate. Call girls who are careful and don't use drugs, have almost 0% infection rate.

According to statistics.
 
Deetee said:
Give us a break - the illnesses you mention are quite evident clinically, with the exception of malaria, which can exist at low parasitaemic levels and actually does affect the outcome of pregnancy in those affected, and schistosomiasis, which does not.

Secondly, I am rather disappointed that you of all people should spout out a list of diseases you claim to be "endemic" in Zimbabwe without checking your facts. I thought higher of you.
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I was quite wrong. And I apologize. The correct list of diseases for Zimbabwe should have been

  1. bacterial diarrhea,
  2. hepatitis A,
  3. typhoid,
  4. malaria
  5. schistosomiasis.

All of those could have been tested for, and would have helped draw conclusions in the matter. Even so, I don't doubt HIV infection is connected to infant mortality, in some way.

As to the commentary about factors for immune system function, malnutrition and frequent infections, parasites and stress all decrease immune function. So does lack of sleep, bad water and stress.
 
Actually hep C isn't very contagious in medical settings either. There have been a couple clinic/doctor based outbreaks, meaning sloppy infection control infected patients. There are hundreds of epidemiological studies that showed the rate of hepatitis C is the same in any number of health care occupations as in matched controls. With the exception there are one or two studies which showed phlebotomists and nurses starting IV lines had a slightly greater risk than controls. The studies were initiated after screening of the Philadelphia Fire Department showed ~6% prevalence of hepatitis C. It turned out the real rate was closer to 4% and that in Philadelphia in matched controls, that was also the rate.

I did a lot of research supporting some worker's comp claims for a couple fire fighters here. Even though the data showed little risk, it was high enough that we still won the cases.

As far as HIV-AIDS in health care workers infected on the job in the US, Occupational Deaths in Health Care Workers, July 2005
To date, 26 (46%) of 57 US healthcare workers with voluntarily reported, documented, occupationally acquired HIV infection have progressed to AIDS, as have 121 (88%) of 138 healthcare workers with possible occupational transmission (25). Job-specific information is available for persons with either documented or possible disease. Twenty-four (42%) of 57 proven transmissions have occurred in nurses, 16 (28%) in clinical laboratory technicians, and 6 (11%) in nonsurgical physicians. Among the 138 persons with possible occupational acquisition, in addition to the occupations above, cases were noted among 12 emergency medical technicians (9%), 6 surgeons (4%), 15 health aide/attendants (11%), and 13 housekeepers and maintenance workers (9%). This distribution by occupation may be applicable to other infections transmitted by percutaneous injury, such as hepatitis B and hepatitis C, but comparable information from recent studies of these infections is not available.

Antiviral therapy to manage an occupational exposure to HIV has resulted in severe hepatitis requiring liver transplant, though no therapy-related deaths have been reported (26). [This was a nurse who was exposed and received PEP drugs after the exposure. I am not certain if she contracted HIV but my understanding is she did not.] The number of healthcare workers who have died from proven or probable occupationally acquired HIV infection has not been reported, but some have died and risk for serious complication persists (27).
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I find it depressing that Duesberg, after at least 15 years of analysing the evidence and debating it widely, still harks back to the old discreditied and disproved concepts he had from the day he first decided to throw his hat into the denialist ring. He truly has learned very little since and it speaks poorly of him as a scientist that he cannot change his core views. Some of his ideas have changed, but this is only tinkering around the edges. He has what is a pretty classic example of cognitive dissonance.

Duesberg's responses (in the Smart interview Robinson cited) to the comments of Candace Pert about CCR mutations causing a degree of resistance to infection with HIV are case in point.
Duesberg lost it completely:
"Let's thank God that our mainstream heterosexuals—from our president to our leading HIV-AIDS researchers—are genetically protected against this “deadly” virus via defective HIV receptors, and are therefore AIDS-free."
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Also sad that he constantly harks back to his publication on the "Chemical Hypothesis" in 2003. This has been disproved (as I showed with some of my citations earlier in the thread). He is aware that the hypothesis has been comprehensively refuted, but instead of modifying or abandoning it, he makes post hoc rationalisations and excuses as to why it still must hold true, rather in the manner of a clairvoyant explaining why a particular psychic reading was innacurate, or a dowser explaining why he couldn't find any water ("too much negative energy interfering with the channelling").

His persistence with the idea that posessing HIV antibodies means you have successfully eliminated and recovered from an infection is also quite totally and unequivocally wrong. He has repeatedly ignored the fact that antibodies do not necessarily equate with recovery and protection. It is possible to have a persisting latent infection and yet the host can produce antibodies - there are many examples which I know he has had called to his attention but which he ignores. Common examples include chicken pox, glandular fever virus, all the other herpes group viruses, syphilis, toxoplasmosis, parasitic infections, lyme disease, etc. as well as many of the retroviruses which he worked with so closely in the early part of his career.
 
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Dabljuh said:
The medical establishment at large is not concerned with healing or keeping people healthy, but with making money. That's capitalism for you, but it's the same principle homeopaths and snake oil traders work. Of course all those groups each believe they would help people (and making a buck off them) but ultimately it is gullible people who suck up medications that are often worthless.
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I take it you're from the USA? What about those of us who aren't American? How exactly does a national health service paid for by taxes fit your opinion of doctors? It's in their interest to do the exact opposite of what you claim they do since they do not get any money off the patients. And yet the general workings of state healthcare and the standard of care given are pretty much the same as private healthcare system in the US.
 
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