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AIDS (hah)

This is at complete variance with your discredited theory that Kaposi is solely due to Popper inhalation in drug using gay men. I repeat: Where are all the gay saunas in Uganda and Congo filled with thousands of men snorting poppers??
...
... a few articles about African Kaposi (which Dubya thinks does not exist) ...
Didn't say KS didn't exist in Africa. Oh, and please: Apparently you call the nitrite inhalants theory "discredited", care to show some material on that?

And: You have read, and understood the material on how HIV is no longer believed to be a causal factor of KS? (In the US AIDS patients, KS was almost exclusively found in gay "AIDS" victims, not in hemophiliacs or IV drug users)
You are lying. AZT has never been prescribed in doses of 2500mg per day. Find me a valid reference for this dose being used therapeutically and I promise to give $1000 to a charity of your choice.
http://www.worldofmolecules.com/drugs/azt.htm said:
When it was first administered dosages tended to be much higher than today, typically one 400mg dose every four hours (even at night) and one of AZT's side-effects includes anemia which was a common complaint. Modern treatment regimens typically use lower dosages two to three times a day in order to improve the overall quality of life
That's 2400mg / day. I remember seeing other sources which talked about 7.5mg/kg per 4 hours, which would make the 4-hour-dose 562mg, and thus the daily dose >3300mg. You can send the 1000$ to the "Dabljuh plasma TV and dope fund", wire transfer data is followed up later.

The Concorde study neatly demonstrates that AZT does not cause immune deficiency or AIDS (as would be predicted by another of your silly "what-causes-AIDS" hypotheses). Since you think AZT, particularly at these "high doses" of 1000mg, is so toxic and damages the immune system, the Concorde trial should have readily demonstrated lower CD4 counts and faster progression to AIDS in the AZT treatment arm. The trials results do not bear this out: those on AZT DID NOT progress faster or have higher mortality than those on placebo (go and read the study again, since you clearly do not understand its results). Those on AZT had a rise in CD4 counts.

Your hypothesis is refuted, even by your own citation.
:p
Read again. Over the course of the 14 month experiment, 8% of the Imm (immediate AZT treatment) group died, but only 6% of the Def (deferred AZT in favour of a Placebo)

The study calls the difference "not statistically difference with a confidence interval of 95%", but with a CI of 90%, it is statistically significant. Remember this study was financed by the patent holders of AZT and was set up with the goal to market AZT to HIV patients who did not have AIDS symptoms yet, so their interpretation with the result is expected to be... lenient.

But of course I don't expect you to understand this.
 
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IMO, once W said he would not be swayed by any evidence presented I think that was the time to stop debating him.
I guess so. Good thing I never said that. I said I'd listen to evidence in an environment that acknowledges most scientific results since the 1980ies, that also allows for politically incorrect research to be published, I'd listen to evidence from that end.
 
Or this...

http://www.rachel79.hpg.ig.com.br/SIDA_ RCT ritonavir x placebo.pdf

Randomised placebo-controlled trial of ritonavir in advanced
HIV-1 disease

Outcomes of AIDS-defining
illness or death
occurred in 119 (21·9%) ritonavir-group
patients and 205 (37·5%) placebo-group patients (hazard
ratio 0·53 [95% CI 0·42–0·66]; log-rank p<0·0001)
during median follow-up of 28·9 weeks, with loss to
follow-up of 15 (1·4%) patients. Ritonavir was then
offered to all patients
; at median follow-up of 51 weeks,
87 (16%) ritonavir-group patients had died of any cause
versus 126 (23%) placebo-group patients (hazard ratio
0·69 [95% CI 0·52–0·91], log-rank p=0·0072).
 

I'm not sure why, or if it is even so, but it seems like some people have nothing but time to spend reading a thread, and waiting for a response. While at times, especially when something is interesting, I can spend a lot of time researching something new, usually a thread is the last thing on my list, unless it is really cool, in which case I set my alarm to get up in the middle of the night to check it. :D

But considering the nature of the international forum, the depth of the issue, and the amount of data and information to read, I give an important thread a half a year to mature and fester. A month would be a good amount of time to wait for a reply, if the person on the other end of the connection is really reading and looking stuff up.

I read that link, then looked at the original study, then read two other studies related to it, then read 5 more papers about the results, and joined another forum where it was discussed, and I'm still not ready to respond. There is some very interesting data in the publications, and even more interesting stuff from the Foundation that funded it.

In fact, I'm off on an entire new tack regarding HIV transmission, all because of your link.

I am suspect of any response that comes quicker than a day, considering the amount of time and mental energy it would take to really study and ponder some of these links and information sources. When I see somebody reply with a one liner, usually with nothing of value in it, I am sure they didn't do any research at all, much less an in depth study of the issue.

It happens all the time, but that is what the user filter is for. ;)

Considering the nature of the medium, the amount of information available, and the multi-threaded issues, an off the cuff response is mostly a feel good piffle.

I'm also doing research on another unrelated issue, but in that most strange of strange occurrences, a common factor just popped up, one that I hope, especially with my penchant for the dramatic, will pan out, or at least bear fruit.

Did anybody else read that link? Did you notice something odd? I often wonder if ... oh, never mind.
 
robinson said:
A month would be a good amount of time to wait for a reply, if the person on the other end of the connection is really reading and looking stuff up.

W ain't that guy.


He's already ignored several links I've posted, so I was just reminding him that it was there.
 
I agree with robinson's statements that a good answer would take in the order of months. But I don't claim to give good answers, so...
I can't seem to access the fulltext article. What I would be looking for first was how the HIV diagnosis was made, and secondly, what the actual causes of death were.

Suspicion: They used the Bangui definition, someone who is sick has thus AIDS and thus HIV. And then they learn that the people with "HIV" die more often than the healthy kids. Great science there.

From the paper:
The baseline median CD4-lymphocyte count was18 (IQR 10–43)/ L in the ritonavir group and 22 (10–47)
/ L in the placebo group. Study medication was discontinued in 114 (21·1%) ritonavir-group patients and 45 (8·3%) placebo-group patients mainly because of initial adverse symptoms. Outcomes of AIDS-defining illness or death occurred in 119 (21·9%) ritonavir-group patients and 205 (37·5%) placebo-group patients (hazard ratio 0·53 [95% CI 0·42–0·66]; log-rank p<0·0001)
So, if you remove the patients for which the treatment doesn't work, you end up with a effectivity that seems higher than it actually is. In addition, the interventionist part of the study was basically cancelled after 16 weeks. Which makes me wonder if they really wanted to study the effectivity of the drug, or just stopped the study when they had the result they wanted.

Other weaknesses: Merely a positive antibody test was required, and the patients already had undergone minimally 9 months of antiretroviral therapy before the study began.

The apparent results (that you quoted) may superficially seem devastating to a Drug-AIDS theory, but it seems clear to me that the study was designed and performed in a way that emphasized the supposed effectivity of treatment.
 
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W said:
I can't seem to access the fulltext article. What I would be looking for first was how the HIV diagnosis was made, and secondly, what the actual causes of death were.

Suspicion: They used the Bangui definition

I don't have access to the fulltext, either (maybe Deetee or someone else can quote for us the relevant parts? ) but how in god's name do you think they could tell the difference between infected in utero, intrapartum, and postnatally via the old Bangui definition???

ETA:
About the group that did the study:

http://www.aidsonline.com/pt/re/aid...k8V1KvJpZ8WSPMG4W!675572714!181195628!8091!-1


The ZVITAMBO project is supported by the Canadian International Development Agency (R/C Project 690/M3688), Cooperative Agreement DAN 0045-A-005094-00 between the US Agency for International Development and the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, and the Rockefeller Foundation. It is a collaborative project of the University of Zimbabwe, the Harare City Health Department, the Johns Hopkins School of Hygiene and Public Health, and the Montréal General Hospital Research Institute, McGill University.

You really think these people were using the Bangui definition. For real?


W said:
So, if you remove the patients for which the treatment doesn't work, you end up with a effectivity that seems higher than it actually is. In addition, the interventionist part of the study was basically cancelled after 16 weeks. Which makes me wonder if they really wanted to study the effectivity of the drug, or just stopped the study when they had the result they wanted.

Other weaknesses: Merely a positive antibody test was required, and the patients already had undergone minimally 9 months of antiretroviral therapy before the study began.

The apparent results (that you quoted) may superficially seem devastating to a Drug-AIDS theory, but it seems clear to me that the study was designed and performed in a way that emphasized the supposed effectivity of treatment.

The first part of your argument that "So, if you remove the patients for which the treatment doesn't work, you end up with a effectivity that seems higher than it actually is" is assuming that an antiretroviral therapy should "work" to alleviate AIDS symptoms!!!

And this:
"The apparent results (that you quoted) may superficially seem devastating to a Drug-AIDS theory, but it seems clear to me that the study was designed and performed in a way that emphasized the supposed effectivity of treatment."

Still doesn't explain why, if the meds are the cause of AIDS and not the HIV virus, the people receiving placebo died almost twice as fast! Are you implying that it was merely a coincidence that the ones who went without meds died at almost twice the rate?
 
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I can't seem to access the fulltext article. What I would be looking for first was how the HIV diagnosis was made

From the article:
At baseline, all mothers were tested for HIV and CD4 cell counts were measured for HIV-positive mothers and a representative subgroup of 692 HIV-negative mothers using previously described methods.

The method of which can be found here:
At baseline, mothers were tested for HIV by 2 ELISAs run in
parallel (HIV 1.0.2 ICE [Murex Diagnostics]; GeneScreen HIV
1/2 [Sanofi Diagnostics Pasteur]). Duplicate pairs of discordant
ELISA results were resolved by Western blot (HIV Blot 2.2;
Genelabs Diagnostics).


W said:
, and secondly, what the actual causes of death were.

From the article:
For infants who died, a study pediatrician, masked to treatment and maternal and infant HIV status, assigned cause of death (multiple causes were allowed and not ranked).10 If available, the primary source for cause of death was records from the hospital admission during which the child died, or one near to the time of death. When hospital records were not available, cause of death was assigned based on verbal autopsy data. Acute respiratory infection (ARI) was assigned as a cause of death for children with a history of cough with fast or difficult breathing (“mabayo” in Shona); “diarrhea” for a history of diarrhea (“manyoka” in Shona) and malnutrition for a history of weight loss, or being very thin prior to death.

Thus, it had nothing to do with AIDS or HIV infection.


W said:
Suspicion: They used the Bangui definition, someone who is sick has thus AIDS and thus HIV. And then they learn that the people with "HIV" die more often than the healthy kids. Great science there.

As you can see above, this is wrong. The cause of death was independent to HIV infection or AIDS diagnosis. Cause of death was established, and then mortality rate was compared to HIV infection, finding a strong correlation.

By 2 years after birth, 1063 (9.9%) infants had died, including 199 (2.9%) deaths among infants born to HIV-negative mothers and 864 (23.3%) deaths among infants born to HIV-positive mothers (Fig. 1A, Table 2). Among all infants born to HIV-positive mothers, 652 (62.6%) who had become infected died compared with 212 (9.2%) infants whose last PCR test was negative (Fig. 1B, Table 2). Among HIV-infected infants, 2-year mortality was 67.5, 65.1 and 33.2% among those infected IU, IP and PN, respectively (Fig. 1C, Table 2).

Here we can see, mortality rate is markedly increased in HIV positive children.

Also interesting is seen in the results:
Cause of death differed according to the infant's HIV-exposure group. While ARI was the most commonly reported cause for all infants, it contributed to 50% of deaths among infants of HIV-negative mothers but to 70% of deaths among infants of HIV-positive mothers, and was especially common among infants who were known to be infected when they died (contributing to 76% of their deaths). Malnutrition was a more common cause of death among infants born to HIV-positive compared with HIV-negative mothers, and was a more common cause among infected compared with NI infants. PN infants had the highest proportion of deaths associated with malnutrition and diarrhea (especially chronic). Meningitis contributed to 4.2% of all deaths, and was not different across HIV exposure groups. Generalized sepsis was reported as a cause of death among 6.7% of uninfected infant deaths (both those born to positive and negative mothers) but <1% of all deaths of infected children. Twenty-one infants died with tuberculosis; all were born to HIV-positive mothers. Malaria contributed to the death of only 8 children, reflecting the low transmission in high-altitude Harare.

HIV positive infants get sick more often. It is a simple as that.

Can you see, now, why you are wrong?
 
Skeptigirl, given Dabljuh's reply to me I think you'll have as much success convincing him that a person with untreated HIV is likely to have a shortened lifespan, as you are with me that it's ethically right that parents can choose to have their infant circumcised for UTI risk reduction/cosmetic/religious reasons:D
I haven't been trying to convince you to change your beliefs about circumcision. I have been trying to get you to recognize you are being less than objective in that thread. Why not just admit you have a personal bias and say so?
 
Umm... just bopping through this thread, and I haven't read everything in its entirety.

Just curious. Has any HIV/AIDS denialist volunteered to be infected with the HIV virus to prove their point?
 
Alright, Skeptigirl.

Lets assume for a second, that you're right. Well, no, lets assume instead that HIV is deadly. Lets say it kills 80% of the people within 25 years, with less than 10% remaining asymptomatic during the entire time.

That's about the most "pessimistic" estimate I'm willing to discuss. But lets assume it's right. Is this a horrible disease?
Yes, of course it is. We value life in the Western world. It actually still appears to be 100% fatal but only time will prove that number smaller.

Do you want to live to be 45? 55? even 65? I would like to at least live as long as possible. I want to live to be 105. And I don't want to do so with no chance of sexual intercourse with a significant other, and taking handfuls of pills, dealing constantly with a chronic disease. HIV-AIDS is a horrible disease as far as diseases go.

Assume I claimed to know magic. I poke people on the forehead, and 80% of them will die within 40 years. A very realistic assumption, provided I only or mostly poke people on the forehead who are 25 or older. I'm fairly sure, observational science could prove this. Would you then find a study that finds that 80% of the people who I poked on the forehead, died within 40 years, to be proof of my magical abilities?
With a good epidemiological study you could make that determination or rule it out if it wasn't occurring.

I have for a long time researched circumcision. I came accross a similiar argument there: Penile cancer is super deadly since most people that get penile cancer don't survive the next 5 years. The argument is simple: Thus circumcision (which prevents penile cancer much like lung amputation prevents lung cancer) is an important health measure. What's not told by the study is that penile cancer almost exclusively afflicts people aged 70 or older. And even then it only hits 1 in 600 men, tops, ever.
An appropriate risk benefit analysis would determine that circumcision was not an effective means of preventing penile cancer in your scenario. Science is capable of weighing one risk against another. Science is capable of giving you the data to make a decision, is the loss of the foreskin a reasonable cost of preventing rare penile cancer? If that were the only reason for circumcision, you wouldn't find very many health care professionals recommending routine circumcisions.

What am I saying? There's 100's and 1000's of scientific papers on HIV/AIDS published every year. Who do you think writes those? Do you believe the people who write those papers have no financial interest in keeping the HIV/AIDS myth alive in the public? Do you think those retrovirologists and AIDS researchers would keep their jobs for long if they publicly questioned the fundamental validity of the HIV/AIDS theory, regardless of its actual validity?
I'm amazed that you have such little knowledge of the scientific community. Yes, there are thousands of researchers whose main interest is in discovery. Scientists love finding out new things. I love finding out new things. Scientists are proud of their accomplishments. I would wager the vast majority of researchers are not making a ton of money and most certainly are not in their profession for the financial rewards.

I actively fight to change the corporate climate. I think it is bad for humanity at the moment. I also happen to think human beings run corporations and the vast majority of them are not like the Enron and Tyco corporatocracies. There are some problems with the system currently but the benefits by far outweigh the drawbacks of capitalism. For every Ken Lay there is a Ben and a Jerry.

Most researchers are motivated by discovery not money.

And do nurses and people like you really do a whole lot of own research, or do they just pay the tuition for their three-week evening course in "how to treat for HIV patients"
First, I have an MSN, not a three week course in treating HIV patients. Second, I take great pride in my profession. Third, I take great pride in my business, which I started as an entrepreneur 17 years ago.

I and the majority of health care providers don't typically take anyone's word for the evidence based medicine we practice. We look at the evidence for ourselves. And that evidence comes from many different sources, different countries, and different funding sources. You simply cannot pull off the conspiracy you believe in because evidence won't let you. Studies must be repeatable, sources must disclose their conflicts of interest, all researchers are allowed in the field and if the evidence is behind their work, it is the evidence which will eventually resolve any questions or doubt.

In politics, you have big money determining who gets to run in the election. So regardless of the fact we are able to vote for our choice, the choices are directed by big money.

But in research, you have an entire international body of scientists. You have scientists who really do care more about discovery than financial reward. You have research funding sources which include charitable foundations and interested individuals like Bill and Melinda Gates for example. Those research funding sources are not connected to any big pharma profits or any retroviral researcher's job security. And providers such as myself have access to all the research. A drug company can only suppress its own scientific reports. They cannot suppress the work done at universities and through non-profit foundations.

I don't make money off HIV. If anything, I let health care workers know that because it takes a large dose of HIV in a needlestick accident to get HIV, PEP drugs are almost never warranted.

But because I order so many HIV tests, I have also had to tell a person they had HIV. When you are faced with telling someone they have an incurable infection which will likely be fatal, you don't do so without knowing what you are dealing with. I am not a fool, I'm damn hard to dupe, and I don't make a profit off anyone with HIV. My practice is based on preventing occupational infectious diseases. If HIV was cured tomorrow my practice wouldn't feel a ripple. Hepatitis B, TB and influenza make up far more of my practice focus than HIV. Preventing the transmission of infectious diseases remains a full time job for an army of public and occupational health professionals with or without HIV.

The people you imagine making money off hyping HIV disease simply don't exist.
 
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Umm... just bopping through this thread, and I haven't read everything in its entirety.

Just curious. Has any HIV/AIDS denialist volunteered to be infected with the HIV virus to prove their point?

W has mentioned at least once about a randomized, double-blind placebo-controlled trial. Not sure if he's prepared to be the first volunteer?
 
I haven't been trying to convince you to change your beliefs about circumcision. I have been trying to get you to recognize you are being less than objective in that thread. Why not just admit you have a personal bias and say so?

What do you think my bias is?
 
Umm... remember, I am not advocating that HIV or other retroviruses are harmless, however, if one thinks about the entire scientific community believing something, except for a couple of "oddballs", who claim everybody else is wrong... well... nothing is more certain than this happening.

The entire history of science, and especially medicine, has example after example of one or two lone voices showing EVERYONE else to be wrong. Nothing is more sure than such a situation arising. Using that as an argument is dumb. It happens all the time.

And yes, everybody can be wrong, except for one person. That is how science works.
If you read what I said, robby,.... When one or a few scientists have evidence which goes against the mainstream, the evidence will eventually speak. After 2 decades, the evidence has proved Doucheberg and Mullis to be wrong.

I'm still waiting for evidence. Claiming somebody is wrong isn't debunking them.
Are you actually claiming I and the others in this thread did not post sufficient evidence debunking Mullis and Doucheberg? Perhaps you should review the thread. The only people posting unsupported opinion are you and 'W'. The rest of us have had no trouble finding copious research supporting our positions.

Oh please. Are you really unaware of the amount of profit HIV/AIDS generates?
That is not the same as claiming everyone researching HIV has a conflict of interest causing them to fake their research data. It is an absurd postulate. Of the thousands of people who have done research on HIV, are you actually claiming no one has noticed the research is all faked? Or are you claiming thousands of scientists all over the world are all in on a conspiracy?

You don't have to be on anything to be duped. Remember, I am no supporting the claims, I am pointing out your debunking sucks. Not the same thing.
My debunking sucks? Could you point to the particular post?

What world do you live in? Are you unaware of how things are in rural Africa? Or the slums?

Get a clue.
Apparently you missed the post where 'W' claimed no one in Africa had HIV. They all had malaria or malnutrition or something else. Yes, robby, get a clue.
 
Umm... just bopping through this thread, and I haven't read everything in its entirety.

Just curious. Has any HIV/AIDS denialist volunteered to be infected with the HIV virus to prove their point?
Yes, then they chickened out when their bluff was called.
 

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