Ahmadinejad hosts Holocaust conference

[Cylinder]

First stop, the Reuters' article:

The Holocaust is now a subject of serious debate, Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Saturday.

Iran has invited scholars from 30 countries to attend a conference starting on Monday about the Holocaust, in which six million Jews were killed by the Nazis.

"For 60 years talking about the Holocaust was a crime in the West but now there is a serious debate about the Holocaust in the media and also in political and popular meetings," state television quoted Ahmadinejad as saying.

Ahmadinejad sparked an international outcry by referring to the Holocaust as a "myth" and saying Israel should be relocated to Europe or North America.

"Even some Western politicians have declared that the original foundation of the Zionist regime (Israel) was a mistake," he said on Saturday.

The US has condemned the conference:

The United States has said Iranian plans to hold a conference that will question whether the Nazis used gas chambers to kill Jews during the Holocaust are disgraceful.

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad caused outrage last year when he said the Holocaust was a myth.

The governments of Europe such as the United Kingdom and Germany have issued similar condemnations. Member governments of the EU are also pushing for a resolution.

The conference will include such academic luminaries as Dr. Fredrick Toben - a long-time Holocaust denier:

A HOLOCAUST denier from Adelaide has joined a delegation of academics at a controversial Tehran conference that will question whether the Holocaust took place.

Iran's President, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, is to give a personal audience to the delegation, which includes the Adelaide Institute's Frederick Toben...

Dr Toben said the delegates were to be joined by Lady (Michele) Renouf, an eccentric socialite and friend of the right-wing historian David Irving, who was sentenced to three years' jail in Austria in February after disputing the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Originally from Australia, Lady Renouf was thrown out of London's Reform Club in 2003 after trying to get Irving invited to speak there. In an interview in 2003 she described Judaism as a "creed of domination and racial superiority". Last month she was banned from addressing the far-right British National Party because it believed her views were extreme.

Dr Toben said: "I understand she is on a flight already. It will be her first visit to Tehran.

 

[JAStewart]

Has Killtown booked his flight yet?

 

[Dave1001]

Fascism in the West is more likely to come from people against Holocaust skeptic conferences than from the people attending them, in my opinion. I think a large component of them would just cheer for whatever ideas are currently popular in their cultural environment. In America in 2006 they despise free assembly of holocaust skeptics. In Germany of 1939 they'd despise fee assembly of anti-nazis.

 

[gumboot]

Fascism in the West is more likely to come from people against Holocaust skeptic conferences than from the people attending them, in my opinion. I think a large component of them would just cheer for whatever ideas are currently popular in their cultural environment. In America in 2006 they despise free assembly of holocaust skeptics. In Germany of 1939 they'd despise fee assembly of anti-nazis.

I have to agree. The government recently tried to pass an anti-hate speech law here in New Zealand, and it's not the only "free western democracy" that has tried something like this recently.

It is only a matter of time.

There will be an "anti-PC" backlash, or PC-ness will evolve into a form of facism.

-Gumboot

 

[rikzilla]

In America in 2006 they despise free assembly of holocaust skeptics. In Germany of 1939 they'd despise fee assembly of anti-nazis.

Eh? We may "despise" Holocaust deniers...but it's hardly against the law for them to meet and confer. Germany of 1939 wasn't really that big into freedom of assembly, speech, or anything else for that matter.

Hardly a fair comparison. Godwin's ghost is stirring.

-z

 

[Arkan_Wolfshade]

Eh? We may "despise" Holocaust deniers...but it's hardly against the law for them to meet and confer. Germany of 1939 wasn't really that big into freedom of assembly, speech, or anything else for that matter.

Hardly a fair comparison. Godwin's ghost is stirring.

-z

That, and although the US may be disgusted by Holocaust deniers/revisionists, we have thus far chosen to not censor them, unlike many European nations. I can understand both sides of the pro/con censorship argument but I've always fallen on the side of letting them say what they want and fighting them with facts. *shrug*

 

[firecoins]

I am Jewish.

Let them meet. I want to know who the denierd are. In fact I think we should make them where arm badges of the star of David for easy identification.

 

[Donal]

I don't think jailing these dopes is such a good idea. It makes them look like martyrs. If private organizations want to distance themselves from such people, good for them. thats their right.

I can understand Germany and Austria's sensitivity to these kinds of comments, but you don't solve it by clamping down on free speech. You have your facts ready to confront them. Then, when you've made your point, let them start to get pissed off so the crazy shines through.

Give them just enough rope to hang themselves.

 

[Dave1001]

Eh? We may "despise" Holocaust deniers...but it's hardly against the law for them to meet and confer. Germany of 1939 wasn't really that big into freedom of assembly, speech, or anything else for that matter.

Hardly a fair comparison. Godwin's ghost is stirring.

-z

Folks like Abe Foxman want make it against the law for them to meet and confer. We have already put our toes in that water with hate crime laws and speech codes at public universities, in my opinion. The anti-free speech/free assembly agenda is promoted in America under the pretext that it is "anti-nazi". The comparison stands, in my opinion. We won't go in that direction if we're vigilant. AND if we remember the worse thing in America is not that some people deny the holocaust, but that some people want denying the holocaust to be illegal.

 

[skepticism]

the real crime

It might just be a matter of free speech. But Europeans and America have gone beyond mere denial of free speech. America has joined with Europe in imprisoning holocaust deniers. america deported to Europe people certain to be imprisoned, merely for voicing their disbelief in a "holocaust"

Another crime, more serious, is executing people, by assuming they're guilty. Assuming that the holocaust occurred makes it certain 80 year old Germans will be deported and executed.

That's the real practical effect of the holocaust legend, making a legal defense impossible for accused Germans. The Israeli groups track down elderly senile 80+ year old Germans trying to have them executed.

In the origina war crime trials after the war, the Allied prosecutors didn't know what method to argue. They'd say the Germans had a new technology that vaporized the Jewish victims. Later they claimed gas chambers. No eyewitness has ever seen a gas chamber.

If you want to know the truth of what happened, you don't imprison the proponents of one view, and reward the supposed believers of the alternative view. The very fact that many academics continue to deny the holocaust in spite of threats of imprisonment, shows the greater credibility of the holocaust deniers. If you promote the holocaust legend for money and respectability, your credibility is weak. If you deny the holocaust in spite of real threats of imprisonment, you are doing the world a major service.

The real reason for promoting a holocaust legend is to promote Israeli control over Arab land. America has more Jews than any country, and more holocaust memorials and holocaust studies in universities. It's no coincidence.

 

[valis]

I am not comfortable with how the whole issue is being reported. I keep seeing the phrase "Holocaust Denier" or "Holocaust never happened". Is anyone really claiming that the Holocaust never really happened? It seems more like people want to question details of the accepted history.

Yes I realize they may be doing this for some very terrible ideological reasons; none the less they should be allowed to do so. If they are factually wrong it should be easy enough to show that. If it isn't easy enough to show then perhaps there is legitimate reason to debate.

 

[Oliver]

It might just be a matter of free speech. But Europeans and America have gone beyond mere denial of free speech. America has joined with Europe in imprisoning holocaust deniers. america deported to Europe people certain to be imprisoned, merely for voicing their disbelief in a "holocaust"

Another crime, more serious, is executing people, by assuming they're guilty. Assuming that the holocaust occurred makes it certain 80 year old Germans will be deported and executed.

That's the real practical effect of the holocaust legend, making a legal defense impossible for accused Germans. The Israeli groups track down elderly senile 80+ year old Germans trying to have them executed.

In the origina war crime trials after the war, the Allied prosecutors didn't know what method to argue. They'd say the Germans had a new technology that vaporized the Jewish victims. Later they claimed gas chambers. No eyewitness has ever seen a gas chamber.

If you want to know the truth of what happened, you don't imprison the proponents of one view, and reward the supposed believers of the alternative view. The very fact that many academics continue to deny the holocaust in spite of threats of imprisonment, shows the greater credibility of the holocaust deniers. If you promote the holocaust legend for money and respectability, your credibility is weak. If you deny the holocaust in spite of real threats of imprisonment, you are doing the world a major service.

The real reason for promoting a holocaust legend is to promote Israeli control over Arab land. America has more Jews than any country, and more holocaust memorials and holocaust studies in universities. It's no coincidence.

Eric?

 

[Nick Terry]

European nations jail Holocaust deniers under statutes criminalising incitement to racial hatred. The UK has such a statute but couldn't convict a Holocaust denier with it because of the way it's worded.

It's different on the continent, but there you have to factor in some vicious neo-Nazi movements which though smallscale thankfully, are also very violent. Over 100 people have been murdered by neo-Nazis since Germany reunified.

As for the US: Skepticism is blowing bubbles out of his a** again on both scores.

OSI deports Nazis who lied on their entry visa forms about their pasts. Funnily enough it doesn't deport Nazis who didn't lie. And there's not a single case where any former Nazi or collaborator has actually been executed after being deported.

As for deporting deniers, that's a murky reference to the fates of Messrs Ernst Zundel and Germar Rudolf. Guess what? Both violated US immigration law. Zundel moved to the States to avoid Canadian restrictions on his website, and thereby lost his residency status in Canada. Shows how much of a Canadian he was that after 40 years in the country he never got around to getting naturalised.

Zundel, incidentally, has been the biggest supplier of Nazi filth to Germany for the past quarter-century. And I don't mean 'revisionist' pseudo-science, I mean antisemitica and Nazi propaganda.

Rudolf is even funnier. He fled Germany where he'd been legitimately convicted and sentenced to 14 months in prison. He'd have been out in less for good behaviour, but the wuss couldn't take it and skipped the country. He actually tried to claim political asylum in the US, forgetting that the US doesn't grant political asylum generally unless there is legitimate fear of persecution or torture. A jail sentence after due process (he used up all his appeals) in a West European prison is not torture. The US has deported people back to Iran who'd been imprisoned for selling Madonna albums.

To cap it all, Rudolf went underground after being notified of his formal deportation date after losing an appeal, which is STANDARD practice. He then turned up at an INS office in Chicago to try and get a green card and got arrested. What a moron.

Oh, and IIRC they execute religious apostates in Iran. So they're in no position to lecture anyone on free-speech.

 

[Thunder]

I personally have nothing academically against denying the Holocaust. I think its b.s., but I think people should, hypothetically, have the right to hold such views.

The problem, is that most Holocaust deniars claim that all the witnesses and survivors, are actually liars. They have lied about their experiences inorder to fabricate a crime, inorder to justify Israel. It is a monumental act of slander...with no evidence behind it.

It would be one thing if they claimed that the number of victims has been accidentaly miscalculated, but no, they claim there was a giant conspiracy, to over-estimate jewish population figures before the war and underestimate them afterwards. Ofcourse, no individuals are accused...just the victims, Israel, and world Jewry.

Holocaust denial, in most cases, is a giant case of maliscious accusations against a whole people.

 

[Bell]

It might just be a matter of free speech. But Europeans and America have gone beyond mere denial of free speech. America has joined with Europe in imprisoning holocaust deniers. america deported to Europe people certain to be imprisoned, merely for voicing their disbelief in a "holocaust"

Oh my! That's aweful! What horrible places to live. When are you going to migrate to Iran, pretty soon I guess?

Another crime, more serious, is executing people, by assuming they're guilty. Assuming that the holocaust occurred makes it certain 80 year old Germans will be deported and executed.

That's the real practical effect of the holocaust legend, making a legal defense impossible for accused Germans. The Israeli groups track down elderly senile 80+ year old Germans trying to have them executed.

More aweful! What did those poor senile Germans do? Could it be they killed, murdered and tortured sick, weak and defenseless children, elders, men and woman?

In the origina war crime trials after the war, the Allied prosecutors didn't know what method to argue. They'd say the Germans had a new technology that vaporized the Jewish victims. Later they claimed gas chambers. No eyewitness has ever seen a gas chamber.

That's strange, since you can still visit those non-excisting gas chambers today.

If you want to know the truth of what happened, you don't imprison the proponents of one view, and reward the supposed believers of the alternative view. The very fact that many academics continue to deny the holocaust in spite of threats of imprisonment, shows the greater credibility of the holocaust deniers.

Or the complete lack of understanding regarding what happened in Nazi Germany.

If you promote the holocaust legend for money and respectability, your credibility is weak. If you deny the holocaust in spite of real threats of imprisonment, you are doing the world a major service.

The only service you would be doing, is showing the world what complete [rule8] you are.

The real reason for promoting a holocaust legend is to promote Israeli control over Arab land. America has more Jews than any country, and more holocaust memorials and holocaust studies in universities. It's no coincidence.

Why are all the Jews living in the US if they want to control the Arab world? Aren't they needed over there then?

 

[Pardalis]

Hey, look who's going to Iran

http://911blogger.com/node/5132

William Rodriguez, the last survivor of the North Tower has been formally invited by the Iranian Government to give a series of presentations about 9/11 in Iran. The reason he was invited, was because they saw his presentation in front of 22,000 Muslims during his recent U.K. tour. The Ministry of Cultural Affairs thought it would be a good idea as a "Peace Mission" to bring Rodriquez to Iran.

 

[Oliver]

Hey, look who's going to Iran

http://911blogger.com/node/5132

To all NWO Members! Code 8 - i repeat - code 8: We have a global crisis.

 

[gumboot]

In the origina war crime trials after the war, the Allied prosecutors didn't know what method to argue. They'd say the Germans had a new technology that vaporized the Jewish victims. Later they claimed gas chambers. No eyewitness has ever seen a gas chamber.

Er, that's simply not true. Actually there were excessive eye witnesses. No Gas Chambers were used systematically inside Germany, but due to Allied propaganda a lot of people claimed Jews were being gassed en masse in Germany.

However, as anyone with an ounce of knowledge knows, most of the exterminations occured outside Germany, especially in Poland. And in these other places gas chambers WERE used systematically and there WERE eyewitnesses to these gassings.

You have no idea what you are talking about.

-Gumboot

 

[gumboot]

I am not comfortable with how the whole issue is being reported. I keep seeing the phrase "Holocaust Denier" or "Holocaust never happened". Is anyone really claiming that the Holocaust never really happened? It seems more like people want to question details of the accepted history.

Sadly there are.

The big problem with the holocaust is it's still such a touchy subject. There's people who deny it even happened. And there's people who want to "revise history" in utterly dishonest ways.

The problem is there's also genuine historians who make findings that don't support the "accepted version" (either accurate findings or mistaken findings) and as a result get harassed, threatened, and labelled a holocaust denier.

An example is the New Zealand historian Dr Joel Hayward.

It's kind of odd. On the one hand I'm saying to the Jewish Community "Get over it already" and on the other hand I'm saying to holocaust deniers "Get with reality!".

The problem is, until both the Jewish moral exploitation and Holocaust denial ceases, I can't see this particular period of history being truely open for genuine historic study.

And frankly, what does history tell us? Chances are the holocaust DIDN'T happen exactly the way we think it did, because nothing ever does. But until everyone just gets over it, we'll never be able to work out for sure what happened.

(Though I think we have a pretty good idea, it's the details that could do with some more objective study)

-Gumboot

 

[Nick Terry]

(Though I think we have a pretty good idea, it's the details that could do with some more objective study)

The details have been subjected to relentless and brutally objective study. Because studying details is relatively technical, esoteric and even a bit boring (much like studying technical details of materials science), the wider public doesn't hear about it. They just hear about the stuff that's been filtered through the popularising lens and stuck onto amazon.com or the TV. That's not cutting-edge research into WWII, I'm afraid.

One of the most important things is that the Holocaust happened across more than a dozen European countries, most especially in Poland. Think about what that means in terms of languages and scholarly literatures. Never mind Yiddish and Hebrew, you have massive quantities of source documentation and huge scholarly literatures in German, Polish, French, Dutch, Russian and more.

It used to be that people could get by with English and German, but these days it's the case that if you don't have the ability to read in at least four to five languages you're nowhere, and one of them better be an East European language.

The other misconception that Gumboot seems to have is who does the research. I happen to work in the field of WWII, Stalinism, Nazism and Holocaust research and I know all the key players at least by name and many personally. And because the Holocaust is an international subject across European history as a whole, it means the people researching it are similarly international. Most, in fact, are not Jews. German and Polish historians do a lot of the heavy lifting on the research front and they do it because the events happened in their countries. Not because anyone told them to.

Saying that objective study or 'genuine study' is only possible when 'moral exploitation' ends is bull. That's like saying no objective study of 9/11 is possible until Bush leaves office. With respect, this is a grave insult to the historical profession.