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Merged AGW without HADCRUT3

OK, I should be working now, but the unprecedented ignorance on this thread merited a response.

If you think it’s a false positive give us some reasons why Stephan-Botlzman, conservation of energy and Kirchoff's law laws are all wrong?
Seriously. This is your argument? "Other laws exist in science, and even though I do not even know how to spell them all, I conclude AGW is correct"? You have GOT to be kidding me.

OK, let me spell it out for you: the reason the stuff you refer to above is considered GOOD SCIENCE is because people went out, set up an experiment, made a series of observations, understood the measurement uncertainty associated with those observations, then used the CORRECT STATISTICAL MODEL to determine whether the results provide significant evidence supporting the original conjecture. Then other people repeated the experiments and verified the same.

Please note importance of measurement uncertainty and "CORRECT STATISTICAL MODEL" right there in the heart of the science.

Again they don’t use statistical models at all, the results are based on physical principles.

You think climate scientists don't use statistical models to test their models against observations? And you obviously don't realise GCMs are heavily loaded with empirical parameterisations.

BWAHAHAHAHA

Epic.
Fail.
 
Actually, as with any scientific hypothesis, you can't prove AGW.
Ugh. Yuk. Seriously, I thought you were a scientist? Where did I say anything about proving AGW (beyond quoting desparation from Ben)? The word "proof" belongs to formalisations such as mathematics, not to science, so we're off to a bad start here anyway. What you mean is provide supporting evidence for. You can't prove it, but you can provide evidence supporting a hypothesis with *some probability* that you are wrong. Of course, as mhaze correctly notes, "AGW" isn't a hypothesis in itself.

Disproving it is trivial.
Ugh. Yuk. There's that "proof" word again. Falsifying a hypothesis is not the same as disproving an effect. For example, if we are seeking a to provide evidence supporting an effect (e.g. AGW, biblical predictions) in a noisy structure (e.g. global temperatures, biblical text) then it is obviously impossible to "disprove". All we can do is show that the evidence is inadequate to support the claim.

Since I've started on it, let's take the Torah codes as an example. I like this example. It has many similarities to the AGW case. When Randi debunked the Torah codes, did he prove that the bible does not contain predictions? No he did not. Because that is impossible to do. Let's elaborate.

Someone else made the claim that the bible contained predictions, and they provided evidence of that claim. They claimed to show that the distances between skip codes in the original biblical text for dates and descriptions of certain events that occurred after the bible was written were so close that they were highly unlikely to have occurred by chance alone.

Randi came along, looked at their models, and demonstrated that their statistical model was in error. Essentially, there was more than one way to describe the events which resulted in additional degrees of freedom, allowing the experimenter to bias the results through selection. To resolve this, either the model can be corrected or the experiment can be repeated. In this case I believe the experiment was repeated (clearly not feasible for AGW), it was shown that the results were quite likely to have occurred by chance alone.

Now, does this disprove that the bible contains predictions? No! Absolutely not. It may be that the effect is smaller than originally claimed, and that more samples, or a more powerful statistical test, could detect an effect. Or it could be that the predictions manifest themselves differently. All Randi did was to show that the evidence provided had another trivial possible explanation - that the results could have occurred by chance alone, and were not significant. This is most certainly not "disproof" of the idea that the bible contains predictions, but it is a clear demonstration that there is no credible evidence supporting the idea. The distinction here is very important.

So then we get on to the AGW "hypothesis". As mhaze rightly pulls you up on, AGW is not a "hypothesis". A hypothesis is a specific test we develop based on our theory. An example of a hypothesis we might form is that we might hypothesise that global temperatures will increase as a result of AGW. OK, that's a testable hypothesis ("AGW" is not). That argument is addressed by Cohn and Lins in a method analogous to the method used to discredit the evidence in the Torah codes.

Of course, rising global temperatures are a necessary but not sufficient test - other things could cause the warming. And that is the point of the Cohn and Lins test. Could LTP in the hydrological cycle also be the cause of the warming? Their results show that yes, this is a plausible explanation. The magnitude of effects (clouds, water vapour) are also consistent with the findings.

So, we are not disproving anything (because it isn't possible). We assessing whether the evidence is valid or not. And so far, there has been no reliable falsification of the evidence supporting the LTP theory. Halley argues the effect appears too small but this comes with huge caveats, as the data he uses have underlying problems.

So we have two competing theories, neither of which is falsified. Of course, the correct scientific thing to do would be to seek a test which resolves the predictions of the two models. But on JREF we just get people asserting black is white. Great way to do science, people.

As it stands, there is a huge amount of evidence supporting the AGW hypothesis, so if you think there's no scientific reason to think AGW is correct, then you must have spent very little time informing yourself on the matter.

If you think you have accurately characterised my ideas, or that you have even a basic understanding of hypothesis testing, then you have clearly spent very little time informing yourself on the matter.

Anyway, please feel free to tell me which of the huge amount of evidence suppoorting AGW is inconsistent with the warming being caused by LTP in the hydrological cycle. Because I'm not aware of any. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist, of course. But at least I'm willing to be educated. No evidence of that on your part.
 
ETA: Ben, you asked for AGW to be disproved. Can't prove a negative, Ben, you should know that. I can't disprove AGW any more than I can disprove the existance of god. It's all in the CIs, it renders the evidence worthless. I can say, there is no scientific reason to believe in AGW just the same as there is no scientific reason to believe in god.

They are your words, not mine... That you spew so much stupidity instead of just admitting you were wrong is telling.

I'll address said stupidities below.
 
BTW, I did not ask for AGW to be disproved, but yes as a scientific assertion it is entirely capable of falsification. It is not trying to prove a negative. You could;

1. Show that the Earth is not warming.

2. Show that CO2 is not rising.

3. Show that the CO2 is not man-caused.

4. Show that CO2 is not a greenhouse gas or that CO2 is not as potent a GHG as we believe.

5. Show that there is some other cause for warming.

And others I won't go into now because you seem to lack the basis for understanding them.
 
Ugh. Yuk. Seriously, I thought you were a scientist?

I am.

Of course, as mhaze correctly notes, "AGW" isn't a hypothesis in itself.

mhaze is wrong, and he knows it... he has that in common with you.

Falsifying a hypothesis is not the same as disproving an effect.

That would depend on the hypothesis you're trying to falsify.

Since I've started on it, let's take the Torah codes as an example.

Let's not...

I like this example.

I bet you do, it's stupid enough...

It has many similarities to the AGW case.

Only in a feverish mind unburdened by the harshness of reality.

So then we get on to the AGW "hypothesis". As mhaze rightly pulls you up on, AGW is not a "hypothesis". A hypothesis is a specific test we develop based on our theory.

Maybe you should have had some high-school science classes before embarrassing yourself in a public forum.

An example of a hypothesis we might form is that we might hypothesise that global temperatures will increase as a result of AGW. OK, that's a testable hypothesis ("AGW" is not).

This must be one of the most inane things I've read in this boards...

You want to falsify AGW? Show that the physical properties of GHGs have been incorrectly characterized. Or show that they don't have the same properties in the atmosphere as they have in the lab. These two results would disprove AGW. But you would have to understand what AGW is, which your posts show is very far from happening.

If you think you have accurately characterised my ideas, or that you have even a basic understanding of hypothesis testing, then you have clearly spent very little time informing yourself on the matter.

Yeah, everyone can see that :rolleyes:... what a maroon...

Anyway, please feel free to tell me which of the huge amount of evidence suppoorting AGW

Physics established the properties of GHGs. GHGs have been anthropogenically introduced into the atmosphere. GHGs have been shown to work in the atmosphere in a similar way as they do in the lab. Temperature rose as predicted. The pattern of warming, both in latitude and altitude, matches the predicted pattern of warming.

Now, can this plethora of evidence have been caused by a different source? Yes, it might be all a gigantic mistake.

Is this plethora of evidence evidence for AGW? Yes, undoubtedly.

Does CoolSceptic know anything about science? He seem to think so, reality disagrees...
 
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Amplifying what Megalodon said; Physics predicted this effect of CO2 about 150 years ago. And people were predicting AGW itself well over 100 years ago.

And in all that time no serious challenge to the physics has developed.

If you have one, CoolSkeptic, there is a Nobel Prize with your name on it waiting...

I think I will not hold my breath while you expound your theory of the Brontosaurus AGW.
 
mhaze is wrong, and he knows it... he has that in common with you.
...

Then state the "AGW Hypothesis" to which the scientific tests may be applied.

Amplifying what Megalodon said; Physics predicted this effect of CO2 about 150 years ago. And people were predicting AGW itself well over 100 years ago......

Fact: The planet came out of a Little Ice Age 150 years ago.

A prophecy from a Seer 149 years ago:

I predict the Earth will get warmer!


Duhhh.....
 
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Then state the "AGW Hypothesis" to which the scientific tests may be applied.

I thought after years of battling against it, you would at least know the basics by now. The hypothesis is:

The accumulation of anthropogenic GHGs in the atmosphere will change the planet's energy balance and increase the global temperatures.

Lots to falsify there, and we know you've failed at it for years now...
 
Here is an interesting graph. Credit pn the host is to <http://www.muller.lbl.gov/pages/IceAgeBook/history_of_climate.html>

<http://www.asinglevoice.us/images/Environment/GlobalWarming/ClimateHistory_www.muller.ibl.gov.pages.IceAgeBook.history_of_climate.html.gif>

Not sure where Muller got the data/graph from, but it sure shows today's temp is within normal, natural variation.

Or this graph: <http://www.global-warming-and-the-climate.com/images/antartica-ice-core-data.gif> from NASA data, re: the temperature/CO2 levels going back 400,000 years, same cycles seen, we are at a high point now. All within natural ranges. Temp and CO2 go hand in hand, then things cool down, all by themselves.
 
This must be one of the most inane things I've read in this boards...

You want to falsify AGW? Show that the physical properties of GHGs have been incorrectly characterized.
Wow. You haven't understood a thing I said. Which doesn't surprise me.

Since the Hurst phenomenon drives global temperatures through (amongst other things) a GHG far more powerful than CO2 is, if I falsified the concept of GHGs, then I would be falsifying one of the most important mechanisms through which LTP gets into the global temperature measurement.

If you understood Koutsoyiannis' maximum entropy work, you would understand that global temperature does not meet the constraints he uses to analytically derive LTP behaviour from first principles. I would have expected a scientist to raise this quite early on when understanding Koutsoyiannis' work (it was one of my first questions when I read his analysis). From your answers, it is pretty much self-evident that you are making no effort whatsoever to understand the reasoning. You can call that what you want, but it isn't science.

However, many aspects of the hydrological cycle do meet these constraints, and these in turn affect global temperature through indirect mechanisms such as the greenhouse effect.

The problem is, the magnitude of the effect on temperature from the Hurst phenomenon via these mechanisms is greater than the direct effect of CO2 forcing, especially on longer scales - in fact, as scale increases (decadal, centennial etc.) the Hurst phenomenon increasingly dominates temperature changes. The effect of CO2 is, quite simply, lost in the noise of the 20th century natural variability.

The work also creates huge problems for the idea of feedbacks, although the reasons for these are more subtle.

Oh, and seriously. You should try to learn from Randi's work. He's pretty good at what he does.
 
Not sure where Muller got the data/graph from, but it sure shows today's temp is within normal, natural variation.

Considering that they go against the published reconstructions, I would say he got the data from where the sun don't shine...

Or this graph: <http://www.global-warming-and-the-climate.com/images/antartica-ice-core-data.gif> from NASA data, re: the temperature/CO2 levels going back 400,000 years, same cycles seen, we are at a high point now. All within natural ranges. Temp and CO2 go hand in hand, then things cool down, all by themselves.

You can always google "Milankovitch cycles", and find out why that is, and why the the situation now is different.
 
I thought after years of battling against it, you would at least know the basics by now. The hypothesis is:

The accumulation of anthropogenic GHGs in the atmosphere will change the planet's energy balance and increase the global temperatures.

Lots to falsify there, and we know you've failed at it for years now...
Ugh. Yuk. Again.

There are many periods when GHGs increased and global temperatures decreased.

Oh, let me guess, to accommodate that you want to add epicycles other influences on global temperature to fix your broken hypothesis. I don't need kludges to fix my model. And let me guess, you're suddenly interested in statistics (even though lomiller is in denial).

Sure, you're a great scientist. You and Tycho Brahe.
 
You can always google "Milankovitch cycles", and find out why that is, and why the the situation now is different.

You can always google Carl Wunsch and find out why Milankovitch cycles are problematic and why stochastic models fit the ice core temperature reconstructions rather well.

Ah, but that would require you to try to understand the point of view of another scientist. Not something you've excelled in so far.
 
Oh, let me guess, to accommodate that you want to add epicycles other influences on global temperature to fix your broken hypothesis. I don't need kludges to fix my model. And let me guess, you're suddenly interested in statistics (even though lomiller is in denial).

You're as much of a psychic as you are insightful and interesting.

Edited by Tricky: 
Edited for civility.
 
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Ah, but that would require you to try to understand the point of view of another scientist. Not something you've excelled in so far.

That's funny... I only corrected your very deficient notions of how science works, but you managed to divine my reactions and opinions on other matters...

Get help, seriously...
 
Once again, Megalodon, we see the same thing we see in 9/11 Tutherism;

People with almost no grounding in science telling scientists how science works and that they are WRONG.

And why must scientists be WRONG? Because it is proof of a New World Order Global Conspiracy !!!!111!!!eleventy!!! And of course they claim we are all drinking the Kool Aide.
 
They're a waste of time... there are dozens of threads where information is presented time and time again. But they always come back, as if none had happened... lately they even started JAQing off. Like truthers, a waste of time.
 
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Why dont you rebut Coolsceptic's points instead of handwaving and attacking?

Not that hard a concept really. If it's that fallible show it instead of the oh it's a waste of time, go back to school nonsense.

Ben especially you. You'll scream dont be condescending to me yet just drip with it.
Every day after reading through these threads and adding to it more info that comes out in the press about data manipulation,fudging numbers,etc by the AGW camp it's pretty obvious it looks like a scam to anyone with a half skeptical mind.
 

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