AGW extremists are dangerous

By taking the time and effort to look into it and find out, as I already said. Those who do not do so are easy prey for the propagandists and will continue to believe them, probably right up until the reality of AGW starts to affect them personally.

Fortunately it's not necessary to convince every Joe Sixpack, just the policy makers, and they are already convinced.

Well, I think we'll have to agree to disagree there. I'm not sure about where you live but is isn't that cut and dried at all where I am. There is discuaaion every day in the press and political levels, there is talk at the water coolers and in the bars. Everyone has an opinion and even the scientists do.

You and others seem to think the opinion of the masses don't count but the fact is that they do - when they vote in a two party system with one on the 'warming' side and one a healthy sceptcism - and where I live voting is compulsory.

Joe Sixpack's opinion, and that of all his mates does matter.
 
And this is where I have the problem and is one of the underlying points I'm making. How would I know, how would Joe Sixpack know? Please read my story about Joe (you probably already have). Remember this is not a science thread - I am asking how do we get Joe to understand who and what to listen to (not me necessarily - I am learning bit by bit).

You cannot blame the fact you are incapable of understanding what is good science and what isn't on the scientists, which you seem to want to do.

If scientist A Says it's real, publishes in a respected journal and gets positive feedback from other scientists who check the data, but scientist B says it's false and publishes in "Dr. Quacky's real sciency science journal for science" and gets support only from people who take small samples of scientist A's work and ridicule it with no further research, who is more likely to be correct?

Or to put it another way, medical researchers or Jenny McCarthy?


Why are you finding this hard?

Similarly, if you ever see someone involved in the AGW debate who does research for, for example, a petrolium company, you can take what they say with a pinch of salt. Equally, if someone from either side references another journal, look at the journal they reference to see if they cherry pick from it, or misrepresent it.

To be honest though, if you want to understand a complex scientific debate like AGW, or Evolution, or plate techtonics, or any other of a multitude of differing scientific theories without learning lots of hard science, you're wasting your time. A number of people who DID learn the science are busy working their asses off day after day to gather evidence for this kind of thing and you casually ask them to lay it out for you, but to leave out the sciency bit? No, sorry, it doesn't work like that. Once again, if you are incapable of determining what is good science adn what is junk, that is YOUR problem. Let me ask you this, do you accept a controversy with regard to Creationsim/ID and Evolution? ID has a few genuine scientists on board (Micheal Behe for example is a legitimate scientist with a real degree, unlike say, Kent Hovind) so surely you should have trouble working out which is right, right?
 
I'm not sure about where you live but is isn't that cut and dried at all where I am.
Science is not dependant on the geographical location of those discussing it.

There is discuaaion every day in the press and political levels, there is talk at the water coolers and in the bars. Everyone has an opinion and even the scientists do.
Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are more informed than others.

You and others seem to think the opinion of the masses don't count but the fact is that they do - when they vote in a two party system with one on the 'warming' side and one a healthy sceptcism
AFAIK no political party in the UK denies the reality of AGW and the necessity for action to mitigate it, not even the small parties let alone the main ones, i.e. the ones likely to form a government. Is there really an electable party in Australia that does so?
 
Science is not dependant on the geographical location of those discussing it.


Everyone's entitled to their opinion. Some opinions are more informed than others.


AFAIK no political party in the UK denies the reality of AGW and the necessity for action to mitigate it, not even the small parties let alone the main ones, i.e. the ones likely to form a government. Is there really an electable party in Australia that does so?

You're right, geographical location has nothing to do with it. Did you really think that was my point?

Correct - some are more informed than others. Some are even more important than others. I don't believe anyone's is totally irrelevant if they have a voice.

The left (government) are all gung ho on global warming and our PM seems to be jostling for a position on the UN down the track. There are those in his party that are sceptical as to the level of human contribution.
The right has a leader who is a 'warmer' also, but is unsure of the human influence. His leadership is tenuous and there are many in the party who don't want to throw 'the baby out with the bath water' and totally undermine our economy on the basis of a "maybe there is AGW" scenario.
I know I've oversimplified that but it gives you an outline.

PS ... AFAIK?
 
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Why are you finding this hard?


(snip) Once again, if you are incapable of determining what is good science adn what is junk, that is YOUR problem. Let me ask you this, do you accept a controversy with regard to Creationsim/ID and Evolution?



I will ask you the same question: Why do you find it hard to understand me?
I have laid out my argument time and again, I've conceded on points where they are valid, I have even softened on a few issues too, and I see where you are coming from (most of the time).

A lot of this we've been over all ready but - there is debate. If there was no debate we wouldn't be talking - nor would scientists on both sides, politician etc etc.

Joe Sixpack wont get the science but he votes. How is his opinion not valid?
Please read the story of Joe again and tell me how he doesn't fit in the picture.

You're right about it being MY problem. I'm trying to cut through it but I also pose the problem of Joe and his mates.

Creationism/Evolution.
Exactly how many Biologists/scientists are claiming that evolution isn't real?

The topic is a total non entity here - we're incredulous at the debate you guys have on that one. However it might be an indicator to help to prove a point about the danger of the extremists.

It seems to me that there are plenty of sceptical scientists on AGW - not deniers necessarily but plenty that have doubts about the level of man made influence occuring. And, in spite of what I've read seen and learned there are many that are reputable.

It is also true that at the level of the press and in forums like this they just bag each others experts continually. You say stop listening to the propagandists - well I'm sure trying! It bloody hard though given all the yelling.

Why put this (AGW) debate into that category (creationism)?
Is it simply another attempt to intimidate or be provocative?
 
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I raise this partly in respone to my own (poor) behaviour in another thread and as an offer of explanation of some attitudes........
I claim as my right as an intelligent, articulate and caring human being; parent, husband, tax payer and resident; a member of the global community to make my own decision. My opinion is as relevant as eveyone elses. I choose to make my decions, in my own time, without the aggressive and self-rightious ravings of those on the extreme.
Given the rather dramatic shift away from AGW beliefs in public opinion in the US in the last year, you are not alone in your opinion.

Doubt if it is provable, but my thinking is that it is the very over reaching, strident Alarmism of the lunatics of the left that is such a turnoff to many people, and which has led them to say "I'd not side with those crazies".
 
I will ask you the same question: Why do you find it hard to understand me?
I have laid out my argument time and again, I've conceded on points where they are valid, I have even softened on a few issues too, and I see where you are coming from (most of the time).

A lot of this we've been over all ready but - there is debate. If there was no debate we wouldn't be talking - nor would scientists on both sides, politician etc etc.

Joe Sixpack wont get the science but he votes. How is his opinion not valid?
Please read the story of Joe again and tell me how he doesn't fit in the picture.

You're right about it being MY problem. I'm trying to cut through it but I also pose the problem of Joe and his mates.

Creationism/Evolution.
Exactly how many Biologists/scientists are claiming that evolution isn't real?

The topic is a total non entity here - we're incredulous at the debate you guys have on that one. However it might be an indicator to help to prove a point about the danger of the extremists.

It seems to me that there are plenty of sceptical scientists on AGW - not deniers necessarily but plenty that have doubts about the level of man made influence occuring. And, in spite of what I've read seen and learned there are many that are reputable.

It is also true that at the level of the press and in forums like this they just bag each others experts continually. You say stop listening to the propagandists - well I'm sure trying! It bloody hard though given all the yelling.

Why put this (AGW) debate into that category (creationism)?
Is it simply another attempt to intimidate or be provocative?

Ok, first of all, an attempt to intimidate? Ha, pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Secondly, I'm from the UK. It says so below my avatar.

Thirdly, I brought up evolution/creation because a number (a small but loud number) of ACTUAL scientists like Michael Behe are weighing in for the junk science side. I fail to see how these actual scientists are (rightly) ridiculed by you in this issue and yet those who cherry pick, lie and distort the AGW scientists work are considered to be legitimate people expressing real concern.
 
The left (government) are all gung ho on global warming and our PM seems to be jostling for a position on the UN down the track. There are those in his party that are sceptical as to the level of human contribution.
The right has a leader who is a 'warmer' also, but is unsure of the human influence. His leadership is tenuous and there are many in the party who don't want to throw 'the baby out with the bath water' and totally undermine our economy on the basis of a "maybe there is AGW" scenario.
I know I've oversimplified that but it gives you an outline.
Thank you. That was helpful, apart from the very unhelpful terminology you are consistently using. [It's a bit rich to complain about being insulted whilst using highly insulting terms like 'warmer' to describe people who have done what you have admitted you can't be bothered to do and actually spent time and effort researching this issue].

So the answer to my question is no, there is no electable Australian political party which actively denies the reality of AGW, which a Joe Sixpack who hasn't bothered to educate himself about this issue can vote for in his ignorance. That's good to know.

PS ... AFAIK?
As far as I know.

It seems to me that there are plenty of sceptical scientists on AGW - not deniers necessarily but plenty that have doubts about the level of man made influence occuring. And, in spite of what I've read seen and learned there are many that are reputable.
Still waiting for you to name six.
 
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Given the rather dramatic shift away from AGW beliefs in public opinion in the US in the last year, you are not alone in your opinion.

Doubt if it is provable, but my thinking is that it is the very over reaching, strident Alarmism of the lunatics of the left that is such a turnoff to many people, and which has led them to say "I'd not side with those crazies".

I might not have termed it 'siding with the crazies'. But why would I want to be associated with antisocial bullies, who yell and scream, rant and rave, peddle alarmist ideas, enjoy frightening children and seem to love to live in fear etc. Maybe they are crazies - that 1% I speak of anyway - maybe it's 20%... who knows?

In Australia, public opinion has fallen to less than 50% from about 70% three years ago as to whether AGW is a "critical issue" and it's falling.
 
Thank you. That was helpful, apart from the very unhelpful terminology you are consistently using. [It's a bit rich to complain about being insulted whilst using highly insulting terms like 'warmer' to describe people who have done what you have admitted you can't be bothered to do and actually spent time and effort researching this issue].

So the answer to my question is no, there is no electable Australian political party which actively denies the reality of AGW, which a Joe Sixpack who hasn't bothered to educate himself about this issue can vote for in his ignorance. That's good to know.


As far as I know.


Still waiting for you to name six.

Um.. was the term gung ho the terminology you object to? I meant nothing insulting - simply pointing out that they are keen. As for 'warmer', if this is insulting then so is denier. I've used it as it seems to be used by both sides as an accepted term. Again, no offence intended. What term do you think I should use?
I disagree with 'electable'; whilst behind now, "a week's a long time in politics" and the PM is under a bit of pressure over other issues at the moment. His honeymoon is finishing.
To repeat, I am not going to take on the scientific technicalities nor the scientists that support or refute- this is not what this thread is about - I can't and this is not the forum. To me, there appear to be doubts.

You haven't explained to me how Joe is irrelevant. Nor how we get a message to the masses apart from 'learn it' or similar.
 
Ok, first of all, an attempt to intimidate? Ha, pull the other one, it's got bells on.

Secondly, I'm from the UK. It says so below my avatar.

Thirdly, I brought up evolution/creation because a number (a small but loud number) of ACTUAL scientists like Michael Behe are weighing in for the junk science side. I fail to see how these actual scientists are (rightly) ridiculed by you in this issue and yet those who cherry pick, lie and distort the AGW scientists work are considered to be legitimate people expressing real concern.

On the intimidation side. I assumed (incorrectly?) that you were trying to put the AGW sceptic in the same category as a creationist. If that was the case, then I assumed it was meant as something of an insult. If I have misread it then I apologise. Perhaps you could explain to me how they are even remotely connected. So I ask again...
How many scientists/biologists say creationism is real?
Why put the AGW debate in the creationist category?

You're right about the UK, Apologies. I picked that up after I posted and amended it- you responded prior to my amendment.

It doesn't alter the fact that the creationist debate is a total nonentity to us and irrelevant to the discussion we are having.


Please show me where I have ridiculed any scientist.
 
Um.. was the term gung ho the terminology you object to? I meant nothing insulting - simply pointing out that they are keen. As for 'warmer', if this is insulting then so is denier. I've used it as it seems to be used by both sides as an accepted term. Again, no offence intended. What term do you think I should use?...
Warmer is a general term, certainly encompassing "Climate Alarmists", and others who have a warm, fuzzy feeling when they gloat and ramble on over taking other peoples' freedoms away under the banner of Saving the World through Fighting Global Warming.

Warmers.

Deniers is a term applied to skeptics of the alarmism over climate, and the history of the use of the term Denier is well understood. It's use is specfically intended to parallel the "AGW Denier" to being a "Holocaust Denier". Several major players in AGW propaganda have promulgated the use of this term, however, with use, the negative connotations seem to have worn off. Now skeptics use it to refer to themselves.

If anything, now Deniers deny the total wacko craziness that seems to be increasingly seen on the strident pro-AGW side. That is increasing as public and political support diminishes. And that support is diminishing for good reason, as the trend of research does not support climate alarmism at all, as well as the planet itself telling us a few important things.

By it's not warming for ten some years now.

From www.urbandictionary.com

WARMER:

Radical left fringe environmentalists view of Global Warming as being pretty much caused by man. Typically reject contrary science and evidence and advocate alarmism, turning any recent weather phenomena into additional evidence for their belief pattern.

"It's really hot. A Warmer would say that since heat waves were predicted to be caused by Man Made Global Warming, this heat wave confirms it"

"A Warmer would say that hurricane was made stronger by the coal plants' CO2 emissions".

"A Warmer claimed his tomatoes matured early this year which meant we are causing the planet to get hotter".
 
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Warmer is a general term, certainly encompassing "Climate Alarmists", and others who have a warm, fuzzy feeling when they gloat and ramble on over taking other peoples' freedoms away under the banner of Saving the World through Fighting Global Warming.

Warmers.

Deniers is a term applied to skeptics of the alarmism over climate, and the history of the use of the term Denier is well understood. It's use is specfically intended to parallel the "AGW Denier" to being a "Holocaust Denier". Several major players in AGW propaganda have promulgated the use of this term, however, with use, the negative connotations seem to have worn off. Now skeptics use it to refer to themselves.

If anything, now Deniers deny the total wacko craziness that seems to be increasingly seen on the strident pro-AGW side. That is increasing as public and political support diminishes. And that support is diminishing for good reason, as the trend of research does not support climate alarmism at all, as well as the planet itself telling us a few important things.

By it's not warming for ten some years now.

From www.urbandictionary.com

WARMER:

Radical left fringe environmentalists view of Global Warming as being pretty much caused by man. Typically reject contrary science and evidence and advocate alarmism, turning any recent weather phenomena into additional evidence for their belief pattern.

"It's really hot. A Warmer would say that since heat waves were predicted to be caused by Man Made Global Warming, this heat wave confirms it"

"A Warmer would say that hurricane was made stronger by the coal plants' CO2 emissions".

"A Warmer claimed his tomatoes matured early this year which meant we are causing the planet to get hotter".



Thanks, I appreciate that.
What then, should I call our more moderate 'warmers' if 'warmer' is a derogatory - term as in extremist?
 
What term do you think I should use?
Sceptic, but that has been tainted by misuse in this particular case. Realist, perhaps.

What word do you usually use to describe people who accept what the evidence tells them? It's usually only people who refuse to do so who need a special word to describe them. We don't have a special word for people who accept that the 9/11 attacks were planned by Osama Bin Laden, that the moon landings happened, that the earth is round, that the Holocaust happened etc etc.
 
Sceptic, but that has been tainted by misuse in this particular case. Realist, perhaps.

What word do you usually use to describe people who accept what the evidence tells them? It's usually only people who refuse to do so who need a special word to describe them. We don't have a special word for people who accept that the 9/11 attacks were planned by Osama Bin Laden, that the moon landings happened, that the earth is round, that the Holocaust happened etc etc.


I hear that a lot, the comparison of an AGW sceptic ro these other things, I mean. It's getting boring to be honest
Given I keep getting called a 'denier' (even though I'm only sceptical of man's contribution - based on nothing apparently) - I guess I'll keep using 'warmers' until something else comes up? Fair enough?
 
I guess I'll keep using 'warmers' until something else comes up? Fair enough?
That's up to you, but I disregard posts by people who persist in using the term after it's unsuitability has been pointed out to them - I consider its use evidence of a mind that's made up and unwilling to examine the evidence objectively, making further discussion pointless - so don't expect any more replies from me to your posts.
 
That's up to you, but I disregard posts by people who persist in using the term after it's unsuitability has been pointed out to them - I consider its use evidence of a mind that's made up and unwilling to examine the evidence objectively, making further discussion pointless - so don't expect any more replies from me to your posts.

That's fine, but I asked a simple question regarding what term I should use. You gave me a backhanded answer, I just gave you back a bit of what you gave me.
So I ask again.. what term do you consider approriate so as to not offend yours (and others) sensibilities?
 
Lukewarmers. Or, if they're English, 'Mildforthetimeofyearers'.
Ha!

Of course there is a wide middle ground of people who feel obliged to say "I believe in AGW, of course I do!", who are really just going with what they feel the crowd is going with. In reality they are going with what heavy, heavy funding of propaganda instructs them to go with.

This is actually evident in the statements themselves. Why is it felt necessary to state the beliefs? It is in fact like one of the fundamental characteristics of many Christians, to ask others, shortly after meeting them, if they are Christian. And then, the other person is judged as good or bad.

Going to more diehard Warmers, one thing that is often seen is a denial of contrary facts and evidence. Thus Pixel42 will continue to present as a good study in AGW the free university course, when in fact it is a very biased and scientifically unsound course in my opinion. There is for example in this reference a "right or wrong answer" to the question "Explain how we helping to drown people in Bangaldesh every time we heat up a cup of tea?".

Obviously, propaganda posing as an authentic question in a "textbook". When this is pointed out, there is some ducking and dodging. But then some time later, perhaps to a new audience, Pixel42 will again promote this reference.

Thus we have the category of "Closet Warmers", similar to gays in the closet. They can't or won't come out and admit it, but they are die hard warmers. Calling them warmers may be offensive, because it points to the negative and irrational parts of the belief system.

And certainly in polite conversation we don't make a habit of offending people.

Postscript:

There is a scientific possibility of global cooling, based on technical aspects of the Sun's sunspot patterns and what they are considered to functionally mean in terms of internal solar dynamics. These have begun to exhibit similarities to the patterns before and during the Little Ice Age several centuries ago. There is no way to assign a percentage probability with current understanding that I am aware of.

However - heavy AGW propaganda and resulting "right ways to think" and "right ways to believe" do interfere with with scientific assessments of oppossing, non politically correct trends. After setting up the "Denier" category, which relates to someone who does not believe whatever the user of the phrase believes, clearly someone looking at global cooling would be a Denier.

A one or two degree drop in global temperatures due to the Sun's natural cycles would be catastrophic. The world population is much higher than in the 17th century, when the Little Ice Age occurred. Cooling would be worse than warming (there are ten times the deaths due to climate in cold weather, than warm weather). Numerous peer review articles have described the relevant solar issues and how global cooling could occur. But these do not get traction in the media or politics because they require a spirit of free inquiry, which is contrary to the operation of a propaganda machine.

Just another factoid against preconceived and rigid belief patterns, their promotion through paid propaganda in the media through vested business interests, coupled with complicit political schemes geared primarily to raise tax revenues under a nice "green" cloak.
 
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Man, this just came up in another thread. Is this new? This whole mistrust of experts, the whole "I'm a nice guy, so my opinion on climate is just as valid as someone who is actually educated on the issue and spends his entire life studying it."



That's a bit like saying those who don't study politics should not be allowed to vote.

Not it is more like those which did not study physic, should be allowed to make statement on the validity of quantum mechanic, but FULLY IGNORED for any debate in physic.
 

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