• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

AGW Denial - The New Creationism/Holocaust Denial Anti-Intellecual Meme?

Status
Not open for further replies.
You should not get your science from movies. Not trying to be trite, but the primary focus of movies is entertainment, even for documentaries. Gore is not a scientist, but he did a decent job of summarizing the main points, even if it was an oversimplification. If you want to watch something to get the science about AGW, I highly recommend the climate change course from the teaching company: http://www.teach12.com/ttcx/coursedesclong2.aspx?cid=1219

It's a bit pricey when not on sale, but they have sales frequently where you can get it for 40-70% off list.
There are two free courses from The Open University:

Introductory level course (5 hours study): http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/course/view.php?id=1526

Intermediate level course (18 hours study): http://openlearn.open.ac.uk/course/view.php?id=2805
 
Last edited:
Well I think all of these anti-intellectual memes have some some ulterior biases and/or motivations underlying them. I'm speaking generally, not about every individual who shares the position or falls prey to the hype. There are always exceptions. But it's easy to see why a Christian might not want to accept evolution, or why a Nazi sympathizer might not want to accept the Holocaust and so on. With AGW deniers there seems to be a mix of motivations at play. The most banal being along the lines of "I trust conservatives more than liberals. Al Gore is a liberal. I like Sean Hannity and Sarah Palin and they say AGW is BS". Then we have the Alex Jonser "everything is a conspiracy and the government is out to get me" types who will latch on to anything. The third and final motivation I can see is from free market proponents who are against government regulation and recognize that AGW would be a good candidate for such a thing.

Indeed, and it's that politicization that's turned GW into such a highly-charged issue in the US, whereas much of the rest of the industrialized world has pretty much accepted its inevitability and instead constantly haggles to try to figure out something to do about it. The politicization of it in the US also gives developing nations and other groups a leg to stand on when it comes to refusing to adhere to any strategy for adjusting to the warming, and it's costing land viability already in India (and possibly China), as well as becoming a growing problem in Mexico and the southwestern US. The situation in the Mid-East is different since the land has been growing more arid over a long period of time, but the overall rise in global temperature has serious consequences there as well. The comparison to Creationists is quite apt in this context since this isn't some far-flung future prediction at all, and can be quantified today simply by looking at the Himalayas, the polar caps, and numerous regions within the equatorial region that are seeing the effects currently. As for the "free market" types, they've always been living a fantasy since the markets haven't been free (as in "do what you want") for a very long time anyway-- instead they're free as in "free to conduct business without breaking the law." I tend to think that the Alex Jones types are in a fringe minority, not unlike the bunker-builder militants during the Cold War who were trying to always be ready for a Red Dawn type situation.

To be honest, I didn't understand all of your reply. In terms of what motivated the initial campaign and the way they went about it I think tobacco/cancer well-poisoning is the best comparison and to some extent they were both carried out by the same people in the same way. This isn't a counter point really, just a comparison that might be more fitting. As to your question "who stands to gain", I would say free market proponents and specific industries (oil and tobacco).

You're right that it wasn't exactly a counterpoint. I was more excited to have some better feedback than the "yes, you're right" or the "OMG you just compared to the Nazis" responses that dominated the other posts, and didn't attribute it to what it actually was. It's still greatly appreciated, and precisely what I wanted to get in response.

Sure, the proponents you name certainly stand to benefit from maintaining a status quo, but I wouldn't consider that benefiting as a whole. There's little or no doubt that many of the current energy companies would jump on whole hog if the nation got past the politicized debate and started working on a solution instead of bickering over whether there's a problem in the first place. Oil companies already spend ridiculous amounts of resources trying to figure out how to more easily extract what oil can be found from the ground-- in Canada and parts of the US this is highly evident-- so switching gears to different power sources to jockey control over really wouldn't be all that different in terms of their operations. When a growing number of extraction processes are trying to convert sandy tar into useful oil and the cost of doing so is more than twice what it used to cost just drilling a well, it's safe to say that a company focused on actually drawing a profit instead of holding fast to a political ideology is going to lean toward profits. That's what played a role in the lack of movement on the EV1 (automobile) ten years ago, and not some consortium between auto and oil producers-- indeed, both the auto and oil industries would gladly leave the other in the dust of obsolescence if given half the chance at a profitable alternative. It's for reasons along those lines that I'm less concerned with the free market leaders as a huge obstacle in general, because the main driving principle there is always going to be profit-driven, and all that's desired regarding climate change is a mechanism to take advantage of for the free market.

I do think your comparison is good in that it highlights the political nature of the arguments, because I agree that there's a heavy element of that involved in this fight. It's a highly ideological debate going on, and certain political camps have dug their heels in to stick to their arguments instead of letting the data drive the debate (which is no surprise given the nature of ideology). Still, this also doesn't seem to be a situation where anything is to be gained, with the exception of populist backing politically-- and perhaps this is why it's such a popular canard among the most fervent ideological conservatives. But therein lies the anti-intellectualism component as well, since the denial arguments tend to revolve around incredulity at scientists and scientific fields-- note the earlier argument by mythstifieD that climatology was "young" as a science (which was untrue) and somehow that counting against the evidence that exists. In a meta analysis, this is in part why the politically conservative party in the US tends to be considered anti-science-- not that Republicans necessarily are, but the fact that arguments like Creationism and GW denial are so prevalent (in the party) tends to give that label some credence.

Where I don't think your comparison works is that those two cases (you brought up) weren't scientific or scholarly issues that found their way into the political sphere, but were actually created by the political sphere. Now, the smoking/cancer example does slightly defy that characterization, since there was research concluding that smoking increases cancer risk in the medical fields for quite some time, but its becoming a debate was precipitated by the companies involved and not because the medical study had gotten to the point where it was disseminating widely to the public. The reason these differ from the GW issue is that GW didn't get a huge backlash from the CFC manufacturers in the 1980's and 90's-- though the research has had concerns as far back as the 1950's, at least, and grown from there-- and it didn't really become a hot-button political issue until Gore's "Inconvenient Truth" came out. However, a lot of the well-poisoning arguments had been in use prior to Gore's publication and subsequent film. I'm not so quick to set this firmly on the shoulders of political or pro-industry ideology, because both seem to have been dragged into the fight as the evidence has grown while the anti-intellectual nature of the denial arguments had already been present. Sure, with the political attachment to the debate the arguments have gotten louder, and with industry being thrown into the mix the debate has grown more complex, but neither of those things marked the beginning of the anti-intellectual movement denying global warming, and the anti-intellectualism involved goes back at least to the 1970's or early 1980's. While a possible argument could be made that Carter putting solar panels on the White House and Reagan taking them down marked a beginning of the political incursion, but that seems to me to be a post-hoc rationalization by political parties currently of an incident where Reagan was attempting to publicly and blatantly establish himself as a polar opposite to Carter (whose presidency was regarded as poor at the time due to the hostage crisis)-- frankly, it wasn't much of a big deal then in the context of GW and few people remembered it until brought up this last decade. Basically, while I think your two examples are good in that they represent parallels of what the climate change debate has merged into, I don't necessarily think they are better examples of parallels of the core anti-intellectualism I'm talking about overall.
 
I don't pose the subject question lightly, especially considering the predictable assumption by some that I'm trying to equate skepticism about Global Warming to the Nazis (which I'm not) or that I'm implying that Global Warming skepticism is equal to Young-Earth Creationists (which I'm not). Instead, I'm asserting that the same rhetorical styles, structure, and in some cases almost verbatim arguments (with a few changed words) are used by the most staunch anti-AGW circles as have been used by both Creationism proponents and by Holocaust deniers. The clear and distinct anti-intellectualism rooted in the anti-AGW positions very clearly mimics the anti-intellectualism rooted in Creationist and Holocaust denier positions as well, even though the ideological boundaries between the three are exclusive from each other-- though not mutually exclusive, as a YEC believer can also be a Holocaust denier or hold the anti-AGW view-- they are simply distinct ideologies not pertinent to the position I'm putting forth.

To wit:

The similarities in structure and argument between the anti-AGW and Holocaust denial are as follows...
  1. Similar focus on a single person as a "spokesman" to be against - This one is a fairly obvious similarity because it's a fairly common ideological tactic to use. The anti-AGW groups constantly focus on Al Gore as a target, while the popular target to focus on for Holocaust denial groups tends to be Simon Wiesenthal for their vitriol. Obviously, neither individual is the nexus of knowledge or the crux of the proponent arguments for Global Warming or the Holocaust (respectively), but both have lots of political (and ideological) connection to the causes, as well as both having had conveniently clay feet on at least a few occasions (neither have led perfect lives). Naturally, the arguments using these two individuals tends toward implying that the hypocrisy being claimed in the assertion reduces legitimacy of the overarching argument, which incorrectly assumes that either of the two have anything at all to do with whether the thing being argued about is accurate or not. Naturally, in both cases, Gore and Wiesenthal could be completely discredited as individuals and neither would ultimately affect the accuracy of the Global Warming or Holocaust issues in anything but a political sense. Of course, this is a useful tactic for both the anti-AGW and the Holocaust denial crowds, since one of the goals of the ideological movements is to garner political sympathy, and pointing out flaws in the other side's political standing is one way to sway fence-sitters or undecideds (or the uninformed) regarding their ideological stance. It's worth noting that this isn't something that is done only by these two types of ideological arguments, and it's certainly prevalent throughout political argument, but the similarities in nature between these two in how this tactic is employed and how prevalent it is in the arguments makes it noteworthy as a comparison. A typical anti-AGW Al Gore rant as an example (I'm not linking Holocaust denial Wiesenthal rants because they tend to be unusually venomous and inappropriate).
  2. Arguments using dissenting exceptions - This happens to be one of those tactics that is shared between all three ideologies mentioned here, as well as with numerous political ideologies. The tactic includes taking a dissenting opinion that directly opposes or seems to contradict a consensus (whether it actually does or not) and claims that as support for their ideological argument. A common anti-AGW tactic is to use some local climate pattern reading as an example against the argued global pattern (example), while a common Holocaust denier tactic is to use any (perceived) flaw that could be found in survivor accounts (no human skin lamps or soap from the dead). Another example in the anti-AGW argument is to cite (supposed) non-consensus opinions from some researcher or scientist (example), regardless of any status of the peer opinions of the research or scientist statements as support against AGW being "conclusive" (more on this with the Creationists), while Holocaust deniers readily cite their own people who are admittedly studied in much of the WWII-era history but put forth conclusions dissenting against the historical consensus about the Holocaust, again regardless of the peer opinions about the dissent or the applicability of the research that went into the dissenting opinion. Sometimes, even, the dissenting opinion is using valid research to imply an air of deceit and/or fraud by claiming the scientists producing the work are either caught up in some type of god complex (example) or other personal attacks instead of presenting an accurate debunking of the science, which is similar to Holocaust denier tactics of dismissing any accumulated evidence stemming from the Nazi war crimes trials as being biased or made-up instead of providing any substantiation to dismissing such evidence.
  3. Present the view opposing theirs as being conspiracy-driven - The notability of the "Jewish conspiracy" theories prevalent in Holocaust denial should have to be highlighted much, since they're so loud and common as to have infiltrated a number of other conspiracy theories still floating about already. With the recent "climate-gate" incident, however, the conspiracy allegations against proponents of Global Warming by the anti-AGW crowd have grown more obvious than they were previously (example). Both ideological arguments present a firm case that the "truth" is being withheld from the public, and constantly present cases of what they allege are obvious examples of the hoax and fraud being perpetrated by the climatologists (another example). Like the personal attacks against Gore, the tactical benefit this rhetorical method has is in both reinforcing the outrage of the anti-AGW crowd-- or, in the Holocaust denial circles, those claiming the Holocaust was a hoax-- as well as influencing fence-sitters or those uninformed about the actual content being discussed. Now, a lot of what has driven the anti-AGW crowd into conspiracy theorizing is that the issue has become highly politicized between the political left and political right, with most common anti-AGW conspiracies implying a left-wing conspiracy to promote fraudulent science for some mixture of anti-right, anti-Capitalist, and/or anti-Christian campaign against the free world. Clearly this is part of where Al Gore comes into the picture, but the conspiracy theorizing from the anti-AGW crowd has gone way beyond Al Gore since the original release of Gore's books (and movie) on the subject.
  4. Present disagreements in the field as 'proof' against the conclusion - This is another one that Holocaust denial also shares with Creationism, and one taken as full advantage of as possible by the anti-AGW crowd. The tactic here is to inflate any disagreements or conflicting data (like this case) as if it were a series of silver bullets against the overarching argument, by claiming that even the experts in the field can't agree and thus the consensus is a sham. Intellectual investigation into any of the fields concerning three ideological arguments in question will find that there is no lockstep agreement on all of minute details on the subject-- which kind of shoots the conspiracy allegations in the foot, yet the conspiracy theories abound-- while the larger conclusions on the subject remain mostly the same almost across the board. Why is this? The answer is simple, and the same for all three: the subject matter itself is massive and prone to differences of opinion on implications and interpretations of data. However, as with any good scientific theory, the more data that is collected should continue to consistently support the overarching theory even if details are subject to change or alteration. This integral part of the Scientific Method is consistently disregarded by the anti-AGW, the Creationist, and the Holocaust denial crowds as a rhetorical tactic used to poke holes in the ideological argument they are disagreeing with. Science just doesn't work that way, and even with scientific principles that have withstood the test of time there are still discussions and debates ongoing about the permanence of their conclusions and the boundaries to which their conclusions are limited-- for a good example of this, take a primer on quantum physics and find out how it has affected our views on long-standing concepts like gravity, the separation of particles and waves, and other physical properties of the universe that had gone for centuries as being considered practically immutable. To assume that there should ever be a 100% completely finished debate on climate change science is to demand an unreasonable condition to a field of science where such things just don't happen (or don't last).

The similarities in structure and argument between the anti-AGW and Creationism are as follows...
  1. Arguments using dissenting exceptions - see above in the Holocaust denial comparison for the longer explanation. Creationism has groups like The Discovery Institute and similar organizations, while the anti-AGW crowd has organizations like the Center for the Study of Carbon Dioxide and Global Change and similar orgs. Both present themselves as scientific organizations with as much legitimacy in the debate as peer-reviewed research, yet the "scientific" data they produce is re-wording of core ideological positions into language resembling research papers.
  2. Present disagreements in the field as 'proof' against the conclusion - see above in the Holocaust denial comparison for the longer explanation of this, as this is shared between all three. Creationists use differences in discovery or interpretation of evolutionary science data to support their arguments, just as anti-AGW proponents do the same with the discovery and interpretation/prediction of climate science models.
  3. Injecting non-scientific debate into the scientific argument on a regular basis - this method is a signature tactic by the Creationism crowds, and has grown to be a common method in the anti-AGW arsenal as well. Again, this is at least partially related to the proselytizing on the issue by Al Gore, which as a result turned it into a partisan issue that has practically drawn a political line in the sand. It would be difficult to find an anti-AGW source out there that doesn't insert some form of politicizing of the issue along right-left political boundaries, despite climate change science (or any science, for that matter) having nothing to do with political affiliation on the fact and data side of things. While Creationism tends to go the way of politics and religion mixed into the arguments, the anti-AGW ideology tends to inject politics and nationalism, economics, and/or sometimes religion into the debate as a tactic to sway undecideds or preach to the proverbial choir.

I wanted to add another one to the list of similarities to Holocaust denier tactics:

5. Trying to use a less absolutist-sounding nomenclature in order to avoid admitting denial - this is a tactic I've noticed in this very thread by mythstifieD, and then again by A.A.Alfie in this other thread, though I've seen it more often than just those two times here on the forums, not to mention having seen public figures (I think Hannity did it at least once) play that "on the fence" card as if that makes their position less hard-line. It's also not mch different from 9/11-truther "just asking questions" or anti-vaxxers claiming they just want more testing done on the vaccines, so again this tactic is certainly not relegated to the type of ideological stance the Nazis embraced but is instead a social rhetorical mechanism of anti-intellectualism that several different ideological stances have embraced at one point or another. The problem with the "on the fence" claims when coupled with clearly GW-denier arguments is that if one were actually and honestly practicing skepticism and wanting answers, when answers are supplied they would actually be weighed contextually with the counter-arguments, and in this case GW-denial fails miserably in terms of credible opinion and thorough evidence. This card is often played along with 'arguments using dissenting exceptions' as mentioned in the above quote, with the pretense being that the thousands of climate researchers on one side who conclude global warming are only equal in weighted value as a few dozen or maybe even a couple of hundred voices denying global warming. This tactic is also not very much different than the "I believe in micro-evolution but not macro-evolution" card that Creationists attempt to play as well.
 
One hopes that even the deniers can look around and notice that they're not dying in screaming agony in a sea of lava. One would HOPE but at this point not expect that they would thus look at human causes for increased CO2

The hyperbole you're using is over the top. The more realistic characterization is that the common denier outlook is that the problem is something for people after their lifetime to figure out. Not their problem. Obviously incorrect, but it's more comforting to those who are dead set on admitting flaws.
 
I recently came across a thread in the CT subsection discussing David Aaronovitch's new book on conspiracy theories, with this link to an interview he gave that has this list of common qualities of conspiracy theories. And, to my complete lack of surprise, five of the seven qualities Aaronovitch discusses also match characteristics of the GW denier crowd quite well. This could be considered a subset of what I pointed out as deniers presenting the view opposing theirs as being conspiracy-driven, but as I read the descriptions in the article I thought a comparison would be worth adding here as well. The characteristics in Aaronovitch's list that match denier rhetoric as as follows:
  • Skeptics and Sheeple - Aaronovitch points out that invariably the conspiracy is perpetrated or founded in some group of "elites"-- in the case of Global Warming, scientists and liberals-- to which he adds: "By contrast, belief in the conspiracy makes you part of a genuinely heroic elite group who can see past the official version duplicated for the benefit of the lazy or inert mass of people by the powers that be. There will usually be an emphasis on the special quality of thought required to appreciate the existence of the conspiracy." When it comes to Global Warming, the "heroic elite group" are those trying very hard to expose the scientific (and liberal) elite for perpetrating the fraud that is Global Warming. The deniers consider themselves "true skeptics" and those forwarding GW arguments to be either untrustworthy liars (basically any non-denier scientist) or rubes who are failing to think 'critically' (in other words, like they are) about the lies that the liars (scientists) are perpetrating. This type of thinking has been integrated with other conspiracy theories on the fringe edges of the denier circles, with the old "Rothchilds trying to control the world" conspriacy theories mixed in heavily and sprinkled with plenty of "libruls/rich folk/Jews/all of the above are evil" shlock on top. The mistake would be in assuming that it's only these fringe edges that are engaging the "skeptics and sheeple" thinking on this topic, though-- it might be a matter of degree as to how much of it takes place (or how "deep" the conspiracy goes), but this type of thinking goes part and parcel with GW denier rhetoric.
  • Just Asking Questions - This type of characteristic is quite prevalent in several threads that pop up on the subject, whether the thread is started by a denier or a denier jumps in with the leading questions that fall just shy of the "so, are you still beating your wife?" formula or even cross well into the "what do they have to hide?" structure. It's no wonder that it gets employed so often or so adamantly, since it not only fits well into suggesting a conspiracy, it also gives the denier rhetorical wiggle-room to avoid admitting their outright denial (however unsuccessfully)-- as long as they claim never receiving answers to their questions. And, indeed, that's precisely what the "just asking questions" technique does: ask questions, demand answers, but rarely or never accept the answers that are given. That way, the cycle of "just asking questions" can continue until there's some slim shred of information that can be latched on to as confirmation of conspiracy, which then leads to more suggestive questions and the cycle can begin anew.
  • Expert Witnesses - Nothing has brought to light this ridiculously illogical form of anti-intellectualism than the fervor over "climategate" itself. All of the sudden the release of the hacked e-mails became a treasure trove for deniers to cherry-pick or claim opposite meanings from snippets of text from some of the scientists involved in climate research. Despite every single claim by the denier crowds of "damning" evidence being pointed out as being incorrectly interpreted, ridiculously overblown, or just plain dishonestly presented, the "climategate" mess persists as a lightning rod for denial claims of proof of fraud. Never mind that I have yet to see a single denier-- on this forum, on television, or on the radio-- give a single shred of evidence as to any fraud discovered in the e-mails, because the possibility that there might be something damning seems to be sufficient for pretty much all of the denial hyperbole I have seen or heard to date on the subject no matter how thoroughly it gets debunked.
  • Academic Credibility - When it comes to the anti-intellectual populism of GW denial, it's perfectly reasonable for any individual claiming sufficient knowledge to bring down scientific conclusions that have been in development for decades, but unless a full, comprehensive, and complete breakdown is provided by anyone advocating the issue of Global Warming then they refute such statements a denier will simply retreat into attacking the credibility of the source of their opposing argument, while trumpeting the credibility of any source they deem fit to use. This is clearly displayed with the current hype over the UK parliament investigations into "climategate." Before that there was the whole petition project that has been shown to be a farce but was a key component of denier appeals to authority prior to the current "climategate" tempest. Much like the "Architects and Engineers for 9/11 Truth" group, the deniers attempt to scrape academic credibility from any source they can regardless of its applicability to the academic subject matter at hand, and often with complete disregard for the subject matter at all. After all, getting a "scientist" to say they don't believe in Global Warming makes for good political and public relations tactics, and to the deniers it doesn't matter if the scientist in question studies or works in a field completely removed from and unconnected to climate science, because the only important factor is that the person agreeing with them has a degree and is called a scientist. It's a broad overuse of dissenting exceptions, which I touched on in my own list, and a glaringly dishonest presentation that's common to denier and conspiracy theorist arguments.
  • Convenient Inconvenient Truths - One can see a few cases where a denier will point out that a scientist's claims or their predictions in a paper were found to be questionable or incorrect, but what the denier rarely tends to show is that it's the larger community of climate scientists exposing and rebuking such claims. This fault clearly parallels Creationist arguments that do the same, which I touched on when I posted about the denial tactic of presenting disagreements in the field as 'proof' against the conclusion, and it's clearly a conspiracy theorist tactic as well. The denier will tend to focus on the line of thinking that since a scientist was shown to be wrong or incorrect, then somehow this leads inevitably to the science to be wrong or incorrect despite it being other scientists in the field providing the correction mechanism. It's a long form of creating an ad hominem attack against a whole field of science, so that anyone connected to the scientific field itself falls under the umbrella of the ad hominem attack without the denier having to constantly hurl personal credibility attacks themselves. After all, of course so-and-so would say that Global Warming conclusions are valid, because so-and-so is one of them.

I haven't read Aaronovitch's book (though I might pick it up), but I found it interesting how several of the common themes he identified in his assessments of the conspiracy theorist toolkit mirrors or has distinct similarities to the assessments I've been making of the anti-intellectualism inherent in the GW denial circles.
 
Wow, comparing anyone/anything with creationists and holocaust deniers is about as twisted as a logical fallacy could possibly get.

Tsk tsk.
:eusa_naughty:
 
Wow, comparing anyone/anything with creationists and holocaust deniers is about as twisted as a logical fallacy could possibly get.

Tsk tsk.
:eusa_naughty:

Not if they are actually similar!

Like Godwin's Law, this can only be a rule of thumb; If there are true similarities to Hitler, you are free to compare to him, but the problem comes when this is abused for something so minor or so dissimilar as to be insulting to those who suffered through that horrific era.
 
Wow, comparing anyone/anything with creationists and holocaust deniers is about as twisted as a logical fallacy could possibly get.

Tsk tsk.
:eusa_naughty:

Good thing that's not what I've done, which I already addressed way back in the first post.

Now, if you're able to actually point out the logical fallacy you seem to be under the impression I'm engaging in, I'm willing to consider it.
 
Good thing that's not what I've done, which I already addressed way back in the first post.

Now, if you're able to actually point out the logical fallacy you seem to be under the impression I'm engaging in, I'm willing to consider it.

Oh I don't know... the words paint brush and wide come to mind.
 
Oh I don't know... the words paint brush and wide come to mind.

Then say the words. Go ahead and actually make a criticism instead of playing coy.

I pointed out that the ideologies are not the same or similar. It's the tactics and the anti-intellectual populism that has moved between ideologies or, in extreme cases, absorbed parts of them. I pointed out the tactics that have been employed in all of these different ideologies, and underscoring the anti-intellectualism of the tactics as the similar factor. I've provided descriptions as to exactly what I mean, and the best anyone has come up with yet is "OMG you shouldn't compare to Nazis!" as a criticism.

How about we go back to what I actually wrote and you provide some real criticism?
 
Then say the words. Go ahead and actually make a criticism instead of playing coy.

I pointed out that the ideologies are not the same or similar. It's the tactics and the anti-intellectual populism that has moved between ideologies or, in extreme cases, absorbed parts of them. I pointed out the tactics that have been employed in all of these different ideologies, and underscoring the anti-intellectualism of the tactics as the similar factor. I've provided descriptions as to exactly what I mean, and the best anyone has come up with yet is "OMG you shouldn't compare to Nazis!" as a criticism.

How about we go back to what I actually wrote and you provide some real criticism?

Not playing "coy". The logical fallacy is quite obvious.

Anecdotal analogy does not logical hypothesis make... Another words : Your random correlation coming from some of the laypersons on internet forums and blogs does not solidify your posited claim in the OP as a whole.

Like I said, paint brush and wide.
 
Not playing "coy". The logical fallacy is quite obvious.

Anecdotal analogy does not logical hypothesis make... Another words : Your random correlation coming from some of the laypersons on internet forums and blogs does not solidify your posited claim in the OP as a whole.

Like I said, paint brush and wide.

Again, read my posts. I not only point to organizations pushing these tactics, but other examples outside of this forum as examples.

If you're not even going to bother criticizing what I actually say, then don't expect me to take your protests seriously.
 
Again, read my posts. I not only point to organizations pushing these tactics, but other examples outside of this forum as examples.

If you're not even going to bother criticizing what I actually say, then don't expect me to take your protests seriously.


Your examples come from forums and blogs as I've already stated. Anecdotal evidence... a few links to a few things.

There's no need for me to sit here and pick apart your OP piece by piece because the overall principle of it crumbles right from the get-go... You've tidily lumped an entire group globally, which means you need to demonstrate that the entire group actually qualifies.

Are you saying that every single argument in all forums and all blogs and all MSM and all skeptical scientists at all times are utilizing creationist and holocaust denier "tactics" all around on the whole based on the few samples you gave ?

Or are you now backpeddling from your big sweep of generalities in your OP ?
 
You haven't actually read the posts have you?

Obviously not, but perhaps Xephyr feels that repeating the same false accusations enough times over and over, maybe I'll begin responding as if the accusations have anything to do with what I wrote. Or maybe all of my posts are TL;DR for Xephyr. Or maybe something else entirely.

But we may never know, because Xephyr is being cryptic and nondescript in response.
 
Obviously not, but perhaps Xephyr feels that repeating the same false accusations enough times over and over, maybe I'll begin responding as if the accusations have anything to do with what I wrote. Or maybe all of my posts are TL;DR for Xephyr. Or maybe something else entirely.

But we may never know, because Xephyr is being cryptic and nondescript in response.

By all means then, please do point me to where you say in your OP that these tactical arguments you're claiming are only utilized by some AGW deniers and not all. Because I certainly cannot find where you specify such.

Your claim falls apart the minute you've applied it to everyone as a whole.

Cryptic and nondescript ? How more clear can I possibly make it for you ? What part of lumping-an-entire-group-as-utilizing-the-same-tactics don't you understand ?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Back
Top Bottom