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Afrocentrism?

Wolfman, you know I respect you. But I think you're wrong in this matter. The first thing that struck me about this thread was DF's response to Complexity. Check it again:

This respose strikes be as a belligerent overreaction to a genuine question. I didn't see Complexity's question as other than legitimate, and as soon as the question was asked, DF's jaws came down.

I think that there's been vitriol on both sides - from DF and from others - but I think that the first shot was fired by DF.

Wolfman already addressed this--why the hell would you ask that question? It's second-guessing me and questioning my motives. If someone talked about their Bio 101 instructor talking about evolution being a fraud, would you ask, "Why are you taking Biology 101"?

I answered the question, nonetheless, although I should have ignored it. Of course, if I did, I'd have people banging me on around now for not answering an "innocuous" post like that (proving, of course, I'm some devious troll that uses skepticism as a means to troll SKEPTICS).

Lost Angeles, I totally missed your post there on page 1. I've gotten too riled up over people *****ing up my topic...

I've missed enough sleep. Off for now.
 
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Wolfman already addressed this--why the hell would you ask that question? It's second-guessing me and questioning my motives.
True, but the question was asked politely and without apparent malice. You overreacted.

Oh, and the replies to that more than confirmed my suspicions. Don't try to tell me it wasn't warranted, or you can't see what his insinuation was, because it's rather obvious.
I agree, it was. That was why I said that there was vitriol on both sides.

I answered the question, nonetheless, although I should have ignored it. Of course, if I did, I'd have people banging me on around now for not answering an "innocuous" post like that (proving, of course, I'm some devious troll that uses skepticism as a means to troll SKEPTICS).
Possibly. But if you'd remained polite and not lashed out in a defensive attack, perhaps you would have had answers to your questions earlier.

I will repeat - you are not the only one at fault. Others are too. But in my opinion you do bear some responsibility. And I disagree with Wolfman for being so completely supportive.

Has a new thread been created? I'd like to lurk there, if that's okay.
 
The book I'm referring to goes through "Black sociology", "Black psychology", "Black economics", etc. Given that the author was a Black Panther and is strongly influenced by black nationalism, among other things I've seen, it's not a leap for me to interpret, I think, that there is the insinuation that "white psychology", "white economics", "white sociology" are racist fields based on the bad, negative, "European worldview".

In my opinion, all that truly exists is "sociology", "psychology", and so on. But again, given the black nationalist roots of the author I'm sure he disagrees.

I've been reluctant to quote specific parts because... well, look what happens when I have? The antagonists will just find a way to interpret it to mean something it could, but clearly doesn't.

I understand that, but these are emotionally charged issues and people have very strong opinions about them.

OK, here's a choice bit I JUST found:

"Myers contrasts this African worldview to the Eurocentric worldview with the former representing an optimal psychology and the latter a suboptimal psychology. The latter is racist, sexist, materialist, and utterly unworkable. Its fatal flaw is the socialization of its adherents to seek the key values of life, i.e. self-worth, peace, happiness, etc. through externals. But the reality is "identity and self-worth are intrinsic" and peace and happiness are generated from within. This in turn requires self-realization of the spirit within."

I ask, is this really the case? Can you really just brush over "Europe" and Europeans and the various cultures with that?

No, you can't. Not and do the topic justice. But I ask you to consider that there may be grains of truth in it: I do think, especially here in America, that we do tend to get our sense of self-worth from externals, from things and possessions and almost anything but our own individual worth. I think this author got that much of it right, as far as broad generalizations go.

Is the bit you quoted from your text, or from an analysis of your text? Nothing wrong with the latter, but can I see a bit of what your text author has to say, as well? Can I see his words, and not just someone else's assessment of his words? It would help me see his biases, and not just the biases of the critic.

And the same goes for the broad-brushing of Africa and African cultures with a single "African worldview" that is quite strangely in almost complete opposition to a "European Worldview" that is portrayed as some sort of boogeyman philosophy..

All right; as a skeptic and critical thinker, you know diametric opposites like these are often fallacious and flawed. I can't see, and think I agree with LA in this, the many and varied peoples of Africa all sharing exactly the same homogeneous "worldview."

And yet, I do seem to see a somewhat more homogeneous worldview arising from Europe and informing our current social structures in those nations that are either in Europe or which arose from it, like the U.S.

I know that I can say this largely because I know a lot about this European worldview, but admittedly not very much about an African one. I'm arguing a bit from ignorance. That's not good, I admit.

I wanna know what it's based on. Pretty sure it's simply political Black Nationalist ideology...

I can't say that you're entirely wrong, but I'd caution against thinking of it as "simply." These constructs are never simple, or sourced from only one point of view, one ideology alone.

Now, if only I could show the entire chapter on "Black psychology", it makes me wonder what the hell they think "psychology" is. Karenga brings up the "existentialists" as an example of "white psychology" somewhere; I don't think any more needs to be said...

I want to think it does, though. I am probably utterly wrong, but isn't existentialism as a philosophy a creation of European minds? What did anyone from Africa, or anyone non-white, have to do with the rise of this philosophy? How can it not, at least in some way, be indicative of white/European psychology?
 
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There was almost nothing relevant, and with slingblade, highly patronizing posts that I felt were pretty insulting. Seriously, go read them and tell me how you can NOT view them as overly patronizing, as if I'm some dumb kid that isn't away of how college works or how clownish some profs. can be? I'm not some naive chump and treating me like I am makes me pretty angry especially when this topic is about something ottally different.


I did not see any of that in slingblade's post. When you mentioned you were upset by that, she apologized.

If you are really interested in this subject, how about answering LostAngeles' questions and addressing slingblade's post rather than bickering with arthwollipot and me.

I would be interested in seeing a thread on racism, and would be happy to put this aside should you or anyone choose to agree to respond only to the relevant points. A Moderated thread, maybe?
 

Yep. Got to say though, starting a thread like that and expressing your thoughts in this way isn't the best way.

That said, it really seems you have a problem with authority and respect the people here too much. With the combined "I am shy and do not vent my frustration at the people I'm frustrated with" and resulting overreaction on zee Internetz!, I'd like to suggest getting back on topic! :D

You could also all relax a little!



It eases the mind. Did to mine while reading this thread anyway heh.
 
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The point of what I was quoting was the obvious implication that capitalism is akin to racism and sexism. Silly Marxist tripe.

You know, I used to find what people attributed to Marxism amusing.

Now it just annoys me. This is NOT a claim of Marx. In fact, Marx made very few claims. He gave a very basic description of why he thought capitalism was a bad thing and then he discussed how wonderful Communism would be. He never claimed capitalism engendered sexism or racism. If you can find evidence of where he did, please, quote it to me.

Marxism isn't a big bad ghoul in the cupboard waiting to snatch your children away and force them to act like Stalin. Stalin wasn't even a Marxist, he was a Stalinist. There have, in fact, been zero Marxist states in the world. No one knows what Marxism would do because no one has TRIED. Gah.

[/derail][/rant]
 
Africa is more diverse than Europe is. You have sub-Saharan blacks, the !Kung, and Pygmies, three out of the five core groups of humans (Asian and Caucasian being the other two. It is acknowledged that the majority of the human population is a mix of these groups. See Guns, Germs, and Steel for more.)

Is that really a prefered source? Has it been updated to include genetic evidence?

The main point is certainly true when examined geneticaly, but I am not sure if it works out quite that way geneticaly.
 
First off, I apologize for my post #6 - the "poking you with a stick" post per Wolfman. I had been having an exactly similar discussion with DF in another thread and allowed that to drift into this thread. My bad.

Wolfman already addressed this--why the hell would you ask that question? It's second-guessing me and questioning my motives. If someone talked about their Bio 101 instructor talking about evolution being a fraud, would you ask, "Why are you taking Biology 101"?
You get very worked up about this but its a valid question. If you took the class because you where honestly interested in learning what the course abstract and syllabus outlined then thats one thing. If you took the class intending to disagree with everything taught and to be outraged, thats quite another. Understanding your reason for taking the class is key to understanding what you are upset about in your OP whether you like it or not.

Although you were upset by the question, you did answer it later: you signed up because of diversity requirements at your school. Fair enough.

Back in my college days we had no diversity requirement and I never considered taking any of the "Black Studies" courses offered. Mostly because I considered the simple existence of such a class as racist and divisive. I wish now I had taken at least one of those courses. I doubt my mind would have been changed, but I would have been better able to understand the opposite viewpoint.

Your OP said you thought the class textbook was BS, but you couldn't offer any excerpts or any debatable concepts from the book to substantiate this claim. Alarm bells go off.

On a self-proclaimed skeptical forum can you honestly blame people for questioning the motives behind an OP like that? You go on about typos and poor writing and made-up words that we're simply supposed to take your word on. Whats the point? Do the typos and poor writing make the information in the book wrong? You've slowly begun to offer some excerpts that can be debated, but its like pulling teeth. Why the huge chip on your shoulder?

I've read Guns, Germs & Steel. My father has Not out of Africa on his bookshelf and I'll pick it up this weekend (thanks for the recommendation, Wolfman). So, I'll join you on your quest for good information on this subject. Are you going to also take Wolfman's suggestion?
 
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This really sums it up. True words.
Not in my experience. I find the posters here to be generally friendly and supportive. But then again, I stay out of CT. Hang out in Community more - that's where all the cool people are.

Is there another thread, or are we taking this one back to the topic? It's a topic I'm genuinely interested in learning more about.
 
You're right, I did not take a class that had a test question asking me if Taco Bell's use of the Taco Bell dog and using Spanish words was racist.

What was the "correct" answer?


I'm reading the new and expanded edition of Lies My Teacher Told Me: Everything Your American History Textbook Got Wrong. There's very good passages in there on how racism basically developed. You can read appalling quotes in there from Christopher Columbus, Woodrow Wilson, Congressmen, segregationists, philosophers, and others on how low those with darker skin are. All men are created free, except for those who aren't. That was the American and European worldview for a while.

For the longest time, if your tribe or city lost a battle with the neighbors, they killed most men and made slaves or concubines of everybody else. You were a slave because you lost, not because you were inferior. You were just transferred forcibly to the slave class.

With the growing realization that slavery was wrong, people who wanted slaves had to come up with a new reason than just "well, they lost the war" as a reason. Hence "they must be inferior", with it's attendant laws about not teaching slaves to help keep them stupid to help with the facade.
 
If you had read my posts--you didn't, naturally--you'd see that that's not the case at all, but I want other perspectives.

The other students, however, probably are.

Why the hell is everyone on this forum so ****ing hostile? The elitist, ***hole mentality on here is huge.


I first encountered you in the OP of this thread. I asked a reasonable question. Some others made reasonable comments. You went off the deep end.

I'm unimpressed with your name. 'Dr. Fascism' just doesn't make me feel all warm and fuzzy. I hope you'll outgrow it.


I used to teach computer science in a black catholic college. I've been exposed to enough intellectual garbage for a lifetime, including
  1. blacks can't be racist
  2. non-black (especially Asian) students shouldn't be allowed in the school because they make the black students look bad by getting good grades
  3. non-black faculty shouldn't be allowed in the school because they're not worthy enough to teach the black students
  4. non-black staff shouldn't be employed by the school because its mission is to educate black people
  5. faculty should start to teach black versions of each academic field and stop suppressing knowledge of these black fields and their accomplishments
  6. black mathematics must be taught instead of racist white mathematics
  7. one must never criticize a student or his/her work because that may damage his/her self-esteem
  8. one must teach much more slowly than one did at other schools but must never let the students know that this is being done
  9. biology and chemistry faculty must teach to the Test (i.e. MCAT - medical school admissions test) to the exclusion of all else, even though very few will get admitted to medical school and the rest won't be qualified for anything, except on paper.
In case you think I misinterpreted something I heard, 1 was heard everywhere; 2,3, 4, and 5 were presented forcefully and repeatedly by student leaders in an assembly that all faculty were required to attend; 1,2,5, and 6 were often heard from my advisees and students; 7 and 8 were instructions repeated more than once by my department chair directly to me; 9 was stated directly to me by the faculty member who had helped design the 'successful' pre-med program.

The mission of the school was admirable, but it was betrayed.

Much of the faculty was good, but it had been worn down and had, largely, given up.

Much of the administration had become corrupted and were enablers of the worst of what was happening in the university.

Two years at this place was more than enough. I left teaching because of my experiences there.
 
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You think there's strife about a class called "Black Studies," try telling people you took a class called "White Identities." My ears are still ringing.

"White Identities"???

What the hell is that?

I'm so glad that my humanities topics are really restricted...
 
Wolfman already addressed this--why the hell would you ask that question? It's second-guessing me and questioning my motives. If someone talked about their Bio 101 instructor talking about evolution being a fraud, would you ask, "Why are you taking Biology 101"?


Wolfman and Dr. Fascism were both wrong in their responses. My question was valid, relevant, and unprovocative - I really wanted an answer.

Why did I ask the question? An answer to it would help me understand Dr. Fascism's reasons for taking the course, the expectations he had of it, and why he's had the reaction to it that he's had.

I asked because I wanted to know.

I knew nothing of Dr. Fascism, his background, his posting history, or his beliefs - nothing beyond what he put in the OP.

My feelings towards racism, <minority>-studies, diversity requirements, etc. are complicated. I think that the way things are handled are nearly always disasterously awful.

So, without regard for Dr. Fascism and Wolfman's opinions, I'll continue to participate in this thread, asking questions as I wish, and sharing what I will.
 
I don't quite think that's what they are talking about. I don't recall the APA ever advocating eugenics, and I'm pretty sure that the eugenics movement was pretty much dead by that time anyway.
in 1997 the APA awarded one of the big names in eugenics, Ray Cattel, what amounted to a "lifetime achievement award". Cattel eventualy asked to have his name removed due to the knee-jerk reactions of folks aligning him with racist ideas. Eugenics is far from a dead subject.

But the point I was trying to make goes beyond eugenics; eugenics was simply an example. The point is that "white psychology" has done a lot to justify keeping the black US populace in a subservient position - in part due to the reasons Beerina points out. "white psychology" may have also done as much or more to do just the opposite, but "one bad apple spoils the bunch".

Do you deny that there has been institutional racism in the US and that various disciplines, psychology included, have been used to justify it? Can you really not see how the victims of this institutional racism might be a bit reluctant to embrace that which was used to discriminate against them?
 
One further post on That School.

When I started teaching there, one of the math faculty took me aside and told me a joke:

"When you give them a review before an exam, they'll want to know what the questions will be and what the answers should be. Preferably, you'll give the questions and answers in the same order that you will ask them on the exam. In that case, you can leave off the questions."

I took this as a dark sign but didn't let it ruin my day.

When I started to give my first review for an exam, a student raised her hand and said, "Dr. X? This isn't the right kind of review." When I said that it was, that I was reviewing the material that would be covered by the exam and giving some broad hints, she replied, "No, that's not a review. A review is when you write on the board what questions will be on the exam and what the answers are." Heads nodded all around the room.

I was flabbergasted. After a moment, I said, "Well, that's not the way we're going to do things here. I won't give you the questions or the answers. I will help you learn the material." I then went on with the review, much to the dismay of the class.

I found this expectation for 'reviews' in the rest of my classes. I was regarded as a monster for not giving in to it.
 
Nothing that I can see. Your remarks were more pertinent and to the point than mine, and you were quite civil.

Come sit by me and we'll have tea and suspirations. :p

Cool, I'll get the Chinese tea that looks suspiciously... Jamaican. (But it's tea. Honest.)

...

Lost Angeles, I totally missed your post there on page 1. I've gotten too riled up over people *****ing up my topic...

I've missed enough sleep. Off for now.

It's cool. Sorry I was getting kind of pissy there for a bit. I have to take off due to a goddamned fire by Hollywood and Vine that's going to disrupt my route.

...

If you are really interested in this subject, how about answering LostAngeles' questions and addressing slingblade's post rather than bickering with arthwollipot and me.

...



Is that really a prefered source? Has it been updated to include genetic evidence?

The main point is certainly true when examined geneticaly, but I am not sure if it works out quite that way geneticaly.

I can't parse that last sentence.

...
For the longest time, if your tribe or city lost a battle with the neighbors, they killed most men and made slaves or concubines of everybody else. You were a slave because you lost, not because you were inferior. You were just transferred forcibly to the slave class.

With the growing realization that slavery was wrong, people who wanted slaves had to come up with a new reason than just "well, they lost the war" as a reason. Hence "they must be inferior", with it's attendant laws about not teaching slaves to help keep them stupid to help with the facade.

Actually, it was a bit more complicated than that. Is it ok if I address this later? My commute is about to suck and I just wanted you to know that I did see this though.
 
It's not that wrong. There is a distinctive difference between Christianity in Europe and Christianity in the US. Where Christianity in Europe historically was centered around - and therefore controlled by - the Church (be it the Roman Catholic, or the various state churches), religious groups in the US was - and are - much more decentralized. You don't generally have these behemoth, all-encompassing churches.

Roughly speaking, in the US, there is nothing - or very little - standing between you and your God. It may go through your local preacher. In Europe, your way to God goes through the Big Church. It's not as dependent on the person preaching, as much as it is dependent on what the Church decrees.

As for getting closer to Jesus: Jesus isn't (necessarily) seen as God in Europe. He is much more the son of God, especially in the Protestant churches. So, you can get closer to Jesus without getting closer to God.

You are correct. I was, how you say, Amerocentric?
 

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