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AETHER: The Physicalists' God

cyberdyno said:
Edited by chillzero: 
Breach of rule 4 removed. No cite given.
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Edited by chillzero: 


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This extract gave me headache, but nonetheless for me at least, there are some interesting points.

Why is this in the religious section, it seems pure physics to me?

I like the theory that consciousness is a "property of nature"

Einstein said that if there was an aether, it could not be measured or observed due to the lack of relative references, so I suppose if he was right, anyone could say anything about the aether, never to be proven wrong.
 
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As Einstein said, there is no absolute space, space is an extension of matter.
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*sigh* Everyone thinks they can speak through the mouth of Einstein. Leave him alone will ya. He didn't necessarily believe in your thoughts and I doubt you could truly fathom Einstein's thoughts.
 
PingOfPong said:
*sigh* Everyone thinks they can speak through the mouth of Einstein. Leave him alone will ya. He didn't necessarily believe in your thoughts and I doubt you could truly fathom Einstein's thoughts.
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If Einstein didn't want people discussing his ideas, why did he publish? Part of his genius was that he made extremely complex and difficult ideas comprehensible to the ordinary intellect. Thinking of these things for the first time was the hard problem. Understanding them afterwards wasn't.
 
Maybe your right, but so often it comes off as just a cheap rhetorical device. "Oh yeah, if Einstein was here how would be agreeing with me!".
 
PingOfPong said:
Maybe your right, but so often it comes off as just a cheap rhetorical device. "Oh yeah, if Einstein was here how would be agreeing with me!".
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That's why it's better to use direct quotes from the man. He can certainly be misrepresented.
 
westprog said:
That's why it's better to use direct quotes from the man. He can certainly be misrepresented.
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"When forced to summarize the general theory of relativity in one sentence: Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter. ... Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this way the concept 'empty space' loses its meaning. ... The particle can only appear as a limited region in space in which the field strength or the energy density are particularly high..." --- Albert Einstein

"I agree with you that the general relativity theory admits of an ether hypothesis as does the special relativity theory. But this new ether theory would not violate the principle of relativity. The reason is that the state [...metric tensor] = Aether is not that of a rigid body in an independent state of motion, but a state of motion which is a function of position determined through the metrical phenomena." --- Albert Einstein (1916)

"But on the other hand there is a weighty argument to be adduced in favour of the ether hypothesis. To deny the ether is ultimately to assume that empty space has no physical qualities whatever.

[...]

Recapitulating, we may say that according to the general theory of relativity space is endowed with physical qualities; in this sense, therefore, there exists an ether. According to the general theory of relativity space without ether is unthinkable; for in such space there not only would be no propagation of light, but also no possibility of existence for standards of space and time (measuring-rods and clocks), nor therefore any space-time intervals in the physical sense. But this ether may not be thought of as endowed with the quality characteristic of ponderable media, as consisting of parts which may be tracked through time. The idea of motion may not be applied to it." --- Albert Einstein ("Ether and the Theory of Relativity, 1920")

"The inseparability of time and space emerged in connection with electrodynamics, or the law of propagation of light. With the discovery of the relativity of simultaneity, space and time were merged in a single continuum in a way similar to that in which the three dimensions of space had previously merged into a single continuum. Physical space was thus extended to a four dimensional space which also included the dimension of time. The four dimensional space of the special theory of relativity is just as rigid and absolute as Newton's space." --- Albert Einstein (1954)
 
PingOfPong said:
*sigh* Everyone thinks they can speak through the mouth of Einstein. Leave him alone will ya. He didn't necessarily believe in your thoughts and I doubt you could truly fathom Einstein's thoughts.
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As Albert Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy."

westprog said:
If Einstein didn't want people discussing his ideas, why did he publish? Part of his genius was that he made extremely complex and difficult ideas comprehensible to the ordinary intellect. Thinking of these things for the first time was the hard problem. Understanding them afterwards wasn't.
Click to expand...

Actually, that's pretty much the whole problem. Einstein didn't make extremely complex and difficult ideas comprehensible to the ordinary intellect, he came up with some extremely complex and difficult ideas that ordinary intellects often think they can comprehend. Understanding these things for the first time wasn't really any harder than understanding them now, the problem is that many people think they understand them when they don't actually have a clue.

It's similar to the problem with quantum physics. Explain to people about clouds of electrons and energy shells, and they think they have an understanding of the basics of quantum physics, when they are actually no closer to reality than when they thought of atoms as tiny solar systems. The concepts in both quantum physics and relativity often seem easy to understand, but only if you don't actually understand them.
 
Well I for one am completely convinced by this deep and intellectual website that cites such luminaries as Einstein and Aristotle! Who do I sign the check to?
 
Cuddles said:
Actually, that's pretty much the whole problem. Einstein didn't make extremely complex and difficult ideas comprehensible to the ordinary intellect, he came up with some extremely complex and difficult ideas that ordinary intellects often think they can comprehend.
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In fairness, getting time dilation from a story about a train, the postulate that c is constant, and some geometry is pretty amazing!
 
Cuddles said:
As Albert Einstein once said, "If you can't think of something relevant to say, just make something up and attribute it to some really smart dead guy."
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Hey! I was going to say that. It really is the quick and the dead around here, isn't it? :D
 
Verse Four:
This notion of a primordial substance is a very old one, also known as Akasha or Brahman, and many times described as pure energy or spiritual fire. It has been anthropomorphized by man since the times of Plato and Aristotle, the Chaldeans and the Akkadians. Called by names like Zeus, Jupiter, Brahma and others. Always seen as immaterial until 1964, when the cosmic microwave background radiation (CMBR, CBR or CMB) was discovered. Since then, there have emerged completely contradictory notions which now compete for acceptance. The reductionists are becoming restless in countless desperate attempts to quantify the unmeasurable. Now there are new claims of an absolute frame of reference showing up everywhere. We finally have a fixed frame! They claim, as if we needed one.
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Straw wars, nothing but straw wars,...
 
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