Advanced mathematics encrypted in Stone-Age and ancient 'artwork'

[Jiri]

Abydos Helicopter & Geometry

You mean this? http://www.catchpenny.org/abydos.html

Heck no, I mean this:
http://www,vejprty.com/abyhelic.htm
there is a big difference between the two.

 

[ReligionStudent]

I love this catchpenny page that was linked to before, and found this there, so I thought it would be a good tool to look at Jiri's most recent post: http://www.catchpenny.org/crackpot.html

Points, 5 starting points.

Originally Posted by Jiri View Post
Rhind Payrus was probably written as a lower level type of manual, a true to the word Applied Mathematics for Dummies and (work)Gang Leaders. We cannot judge Egyptian mathematics from it and by it.
The temples had their secret knowledge, which Greek initiates brought home to Greece.

Points:6, see point 2.

.
There are lots, read Schwaller de Lubicz, for example. The "Abydos Helicopter" is another example, which I discovered myself.
http://www,vejprty.com/abyhelic.htm

Points: 16, see rule 9

You don't sound logical. A professor's knowledge of mathematics is the proof that his teachers had essentially the same knowledge. There is PARITY between them. He has to stand on the shoulders of others.

Points: 43. see rules 3, 6, 13

It is even more amazing how such claims correspond with the probably prehistoric Egyptian achievements, such as the Sphinx, the Osireion, the Valley Temple, or possibly even the Baalbek platform, and trilithon.
http://www,vejprty.com/baalbek.htm

Points: 79, see rule 5 * 6 and rule 2*6

Proof? I am content to be able to make things fit logic.

Points: 81, rule 2

Quoting myself:
Just one question: Was Plato, Solon, and the Egyptian temple right or wrong about this vast continent?
Of course, he was right. Remember, a lot of reputation was in stake here, as there was no question that Atlantic would be navigated one day in the future.
.


You are being illogical again. Since the technology to sail across the Atlantic had long been there, according to the story of Atlantis, clearly the Atlantic could be sailed again in the future to come. Is that not the clear implication behind Plato's words? "Sail to discover the vast continents across the ocean!"
There were myths,yes, and the alleged mud left from the sinking of Atlantis was typical of them. Sailing into the ocean may have had been temporarily more perilous than usually following the violent demise of Atlantis, hence the stories.

Points: 146, Rules 13, 14, 25.

Quoting myself:
How would we judge Plato and the rest of Timeus and Critias then, if there were no other continental mass out there? Plato definitely encourages exploratory voyages across the Atlantic ocean by promising them America. Would he wish to deceive the future sailors, and have them cursing his name? Columbus himself may have had found a measure of encouragement in Plato to make his big decision.

Points: 147, rule 2

The Egyptian Temple as the guardian to the secrets of advanced prehistoric civilisation would also be the key to the simplest explanation of the existence of the Great Pyramid. It was possible to build it, because the Egyptian Temple had always known how to do it. Was not Imhotep the pyramid's architect at the same time the highest ranking priest of the temple in Egypt?

Points: 153, rules 2 and 5

You call yourself what, and you don't realize that all those gods were of the same Pantheon? The sum of all the temples is the Egyptian Temple. Greeks went to learn to more than one temple in Egypt, so obviously these temples had a lot in common with each other. The Pharaoh was a symbolic head of the Temple while a guy like Imhotep had risen to the top by the virtue of his scientific prowess, which was the main selection criterium, it seems, since Pythagoras, too, had risen to the very top in the Egyptian Temple while being a foreigner. Neither Egyptians nor Greeks could have had been too orthodox, and fanatical about their religion since they agreed that their respective pantheons were essentially the same thing, the same gods. Since the people making that decision were priests of the temple, they had to be very tolerantly and progressively minded. Solon was a philosopher, and yet he apparently also rose to a prominent position within the Egyptian temple. This history is just extraordinary.

Points 161, rules 2,3,5

Quoting myself:
For whoever is building the Great Pyramid must have great knowledge. There are techniques to master in using mechanical advantage methods and machines. There are advanced techniques for polishing large expanses of stone to optometrist's standards, techniques for manouvering enormous blocks in confined spaces, techniques for drilling enormous quantities of granite in short time, etc. Then there is the enormous logistical challenge, as Egypt's fate could easily be endangered by wasting its resources on the building.
.


Yes, but they had been developped long time before Zosser. He probably just didn't devote enough funds and effort to his pyramid.

Points: 179, rule 2, 4, 5, 6 (the inconsistancy here is that Djoser ran out of money, but the machines etc would have kept them from going broke).

Stressed, but not broken. If they did pyramid building by brawn, they'd be bankrupt financially and physically ere long.

Points: 187, 4,5

So there is the final total for this post, think how high it must be for the entire thread.

 

[ReligionStudent]

More tasteless diatribes, this time from you to me. I am not a pseudohistorian, if anything, you could say 'revisionist historian' , or armchair archaeologist. The more I talk to you the more it appears that you know nothing, and have nothing to say. Your posts appear ideology driven.

My posts are not idealogically driven, they are evidence driven. Your work is pseudoarchaeology, see Archaeological Fantasies for a definition.

 

[Jeff Corey]

What continent across the Atlantic did Plato write about?
How does he describe the geographic situation and is it true?
Why do we know Plato knew the difference between an ocean and a sea?
Why is the story of Atlantis in a scientific compendium written by Plato, and not in a fictional work like the Republic?

1.Atlantis.
2. He didn't and you don't either.
3. See the previous poster, who points out it was not scientific.
Any questions?

 

[wollery]

Heck no, I mean this:
http://www,vejprty.com/abyhelic.htm
there is a big difference between the two.

I can't see the page you link too, even correcting for the incorrect address you give, the Great Firewall of China blocks it. Unless of course you've spelt it wrong as well as using a comma instead of a period!

And the catchpenny page shows how the apparent vehicles are the result of filling in and overwriting with new glyphs, and some of the filling falling out. It even highlights the relevant glyphs and gives their meanings. A very different and far more plausible explanation than the one I assume is given on the site you link to.

 

[Jiri]

I love this catchpenny page that was linked to before, and found this there, so I thought it would be a good tool to look at Jiri's most recent post: http://www.catchpenny.org/crackpot.html

Points, 5 starting points.

Points:6, see point 2. Points: 16, see rule 9 Points: 43. see rules 3, 6, 13 Points: 79, see rule 5 * 6 and rule 2*6 Points: 81, rule 2 Points: 146, Rules 13, 14, 25. Points: 147, rule 2 Points: 153, rules 2 and 5 Points 161, rules 2,3,5

Yes, but they had been developped long time before Zosser. He probably just didn't devote enough funds and effort to his pyramid.

.

Points: 179, rule 2, 4, 5, 6 (the inconsistancy here is that Djoser ran out of money, but the machines etc would have kept them from going broke). Points: 187, 4,5

Ah, the only real comment out of you. Nice twisting, RS (Ares, no!)
You said I said:"Djoser ran out of money", but I said:" Zosser - He probably just didn't devote enough funds and effort to his pyramid." Which would mean that he did not run out of money, and could have had more done on his pyramid. The techniques of moving cyclopean blocks of stone had already been developed by then. He could have had some of those moved into his pyramid. But, why should he? His was already the biggest pyramid ever built, and the tallest building on Earth, if you believe what you read.. So, where is the alleged inconsistence?

"but the machines etc would have kept them from going broke".

Since king Zosser never went broke over the building of his pyramid, the only time you opened your mouth in this post, you were clearly wrong.
BTW, you can go broke with or without machines, Haven't you thought of that?
Even when using various machines, putting up the Great Pyramid will always be costly, and time consuming. In contrast, Zosser's pyramid is a money and effort saver. Smaller overall, much smaller stones involved, easy to transport to the top by various means, which would not work for the big blocks, less effort spent on the mantle blocks, etc. Nothing to prepare you for the task like building the GP, albeit, it would be a good test for logistics.

So there is the final total for this post, think how high it must be for the entire thread.

Don't you wish it would be trillions of quadrillions?

 

[Jiri]

I can't see the page you link too, even correcting for the incorrect address you give, the Great Firewall of China blocks it. Unless of course you've spelt it wrong as well as using a comma instead of a period!

And the catchpenny page shows how the apparent vehicles are the result of filling in and overwriting with new glyphs, and some of the filling falling out. It even highlights the relevant glyphs and gives their meanings. A very different and far more plausible explanation than the one I assume is given on the site you link to.

Try this: It even beats anything else. It is the simplest explanation, as well.
http://www.vejprty.com/abyhelic.htm

 

[I less than three logic]

Try this: It even beats anything else. It is the simplest explanation, as well.
http://www.vejprty.com/abyhelic.htm

WTF was that? Honestly, that web page has to rank in the top ten on the list of web sites with the absolute most nonsense stuffed into a single page. There are just a bunch of lines placed, apparently just randomly, on top of pictures of hieroglyphics zoomed to the point that they are pixelated so bad you can hardly make out they're hieroglyphics at all. These are then accompanied by is some incoherent ramblings about what these lines, that have nothing to do with the picture they were drawn upon, are meant to mean.

 

[wollery]

WTF was that? Honestly, that web page has to rank in the top ten on the list of web sites with the absolute most nonsense stuffed into a single page. There are just a bunch of lines placed, apparently just randomly, on top of pictures of hieroglyphics zoomed to the point that they are pixelated so bad you can hardly make out they're hieroglyphics at all. These are then accompanied by is some incoherent ramblings about what these lines, that have nothing to do with the picture they were drawn upon, are meant to mean.

Hmmm, that sounds strangely familiar......

 

[ReligionStudent]

WTF was that? Honestly, that web page has to rank in the top ten on the list of web sites with the absolute most nonsense stuffed into a single page. There are just a bunch of lines placed, apparently just randomly, on top of pictures of hieroglyphics zoomed to the point that they are pixelated so bad you can hardly make out they're hieroglyphics at all. These are then accompanied by is some incoherent ramblings about what these lines, that have nothing to do with the picture they were drawn upon, are meant to mean.

That is pretty much Jiri's entire theory and his entire support all in one.

signifying nothing

 

[ReligionStudent]

Since king Zosser never went broke over the building of his pyramid, the only time you opened your mouth in this post, you were clearly wrong.
BTW, you can go broke with or without machines, Haven't you thought of that?
Even when using various machines, putting up the Great Pyramid will always be costly, and time consuming. In contrast, Zosser's pyramid is a money and effort saver. Smaller overall, much smaller stones involved, easy to transport to the top by various means, which would not work for the big blocks, less effort spent on the mantle blocks, etc. Nothing to prepare you for the task like building the GP, albeit, it would be a good test for logistics.

In any case, your comment on Djoser saving money is just random thought you are pulling out of nowhere. It goes completely against all credible theory and chronology. Please give at least a little credible support to your money saving theory as oppose to the step in a gradual evolution of pyramids theory.


Additionally, the Egyptians did not have money.

 

[jsfisher]

...

The simplicity with which phi can be constructed with straight edge and compass guarantees the high probability of "uncovering phi" in places there was not explicit intention to put it.

I've refuted this contention by you a long time ago, but you never responded. Now, I don't remember where it is exactly.

Forgive the quality of my artistic skills, but please consider the attached image. The square is meant to be a unit square, and the circle, of unit diameter. So, what would be the length of the line segment from from corner, through circle center, to circle edge?

 

[Jiri]

Forgive the quality of my artistic skills, but please consider the attached image. The square is meant to be a unit square, and the circle, of unit diameter. So, what would be the length of the line segment from from corner, through circle center, to circle edge?

Why, 1.6180339887... , of course. The line to the edge of the square equals the square root of 5/2 = 1.1180339.. and the circle radius is 0.5.
Now, how does this support your theory that Phi pops out of art easily and automatically? We just got to the stage, where I have pointed out in my previous response to this that more steps are needed to create the Golden Section here.
I don't see Phi in your picture anywhere. We have a ratio of 1.118 : 0.5 in the line. Either, the line has to be swung down to the baseline, next, in order to create the Golden ratio, or the square's side has to be swung onto the line. Then we get the ratio 1 : 0.6180..

 

[jsfisher]

I don't see Phi in your picture anywhere. We have a ratio of 1.118 : 0.5 in the line. Either, the line has to be swung down to the baseline, next, in order to create the Golden ratio, or the square's side has to be swung onto the line. Then we get the ratio 1 : 0.6180..

Ummm, Jiri, φ, aka phi, aka the Golden Ratio, aka the Golden Section, is (1 + √5) / 2, which is, approximately, 1.6180339887.

 

[Apathia]

Why, 1.6180339887... , of course. The line to the edge of the square equals the square root of 5/2 = 1.1180339.. and the circle radius is 0.5.
Now, how does this support your theory that Phi pops out of art easily and automatically? We just got to the stage, where I have pointed out in my previous response to this that more steps are needed to create the Golden Section here.
I don't see Phi in your picture anywhere. We have a ratio of 1.118 : 0.5 in the line. Either, the line has to be swung down to the baseline, next, in order to create the Golden ratio, or the square's side has to be swung onto the line. Then we get the ratio 1 : 0.6180..

If it had been a snake, it would have bit you.
Elsewhere you are running from a piece of rope.

 

[ReligionStudent]

Ummm, Jiri, φ, aka phi, aka the Golden Ratio, aka the Golden Section, is (1 + √5) / 2, which is, approximately, 1.6180339887.

Yes, and I would like to throw my support behind my Its a common number to turn up side of the court.

Additionally, there are numerous theories which say that it may be a pleasing ratio to the human eye, an evolved characteristic that was not conciously known until recently (ie after such studies) and would have been included accidently through its aesthetic value, and not its mathamatical importance.

 

[Jiri]

Ummm, Jiri, φ, aka phi, aka the Golden Ratio, aka the Golden Section, is (1 + √5) / 2, which is, approximately, 1.6180339887.

Huh? You, me, just gave Phi as ((√5) : 2) + 0.5 Those are the two sections of your line: 1.118 and 0.5
I don't see (1 + √5), or 3.236067977499.., anywhere in your picture, because I don't see √5 anywhere.

But, I was asking you : "How does this support your theory that Phi pops out of art easily and automatically?"

In other words: Can you show us any example of ancient art constructed with compasses and straight-edge including a square capped by a semicircle with a line drawn from one of the bottom corners of the square to the semi-circle's center, and on to the semi-circle? Do these pictures utilize this basic position in deriving more directly related design?
.
Such as construction of the 36 degree angle. There is a way to use that angle in the simplest possible construction of a regular 5-pointed star in this position. Can you show us your answer to this?
I am going to compare your answer to the construction given by the Nazca monkey, so you have some serious competition there, I think. That construction seems to be the solution to one entire level of the monkey's puzzle.
So, such culmination in a specific construction must mean something. I took it as a sign that this construction must be the fastest one. The fastest of all the time - and even prehistory! By the way, the gif below should also show the circle around the bigger square, a slight omission, sorry.



You are free to break my heart like you did with 48, and 54
**********
In short, JF, any picture not based on the Section in some way, will be Phi-free.

 

[ReligionStudent]

Huh? You, me, just gave Phi as ((√5) : 2) + 0.5 Those are the two sections of your line: 1.118 and 0.5
I don't see (1 + √5), or 3.236067977499.., anywhere in your picture, because I don't see √5 anywhere.

But, I was asking you : "How does this support your theory that Phi pops out of art easily and automatically?"

In other words: Can you show us any example of ancient art constructed with compasses and straight-edge including a square capped by a semicircle with a line drawn from one of the bottom corners of the square to the semi-circle's center, and on to the semi-circle? Do these pictures utilize this basic position in deriving more directly related design?
.
Such as construction of the 36 degree angle. There is a way to use that angle in the simplest possible construction of a regular 5-pointed star in this position. Can you show us your answer to this?
I am going to compare your answer to the construction given by the Nazca monkey, so you have some serious competition there, I think. That construction seems to be the solution to one entire level of the monkey's puzzle.
So, such culmination in a specific construction must mean something. I took it as a sign that this construction must be the fastest one. The fastest of all the time - and even prehistory! By the way, the gif below should also show the circle around the bigger square, a slight omission, sorry.

[qimg]http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/imagehosting/thum_15577463eb52e4ee88.gif[/qimg]

You are free to break my heart like you did with 48, and 54
**********
In short, JF, any picture not based on the Section in some way, will be Phi-free.

your final conclusion is absolutely false as there is a chance of it appearing randomly.

 

[Jiri]

Yes, and I would like to throw my support behind my Its a common number to turn up side of the court.

Additionally, there are numerous theories which say that it may be a pleasing ratio to the human eye, an evolved characteristic that was not conciously known until recently (ie after such studies) and would have been included accidently through its aesthetic value, and not its mathamatical importance.

Ha ha, you can't have it both ways. You guys were just supporting George Markowsky, who says the opposite, and calls such theories 'woo'. Are you sure RS that you have no deceit in your heart?
Anyway, gotcha.

 

[Jiri]

your final conclusion is absolutely false as there is a chance of it appearing randomly.

Randomly means unsystematically.
Systematically means non-randomly.
There are practical limits to how far randomness can go and simulate geometrical science.