Addiction is a disease

[Skeptic Ginger]

SirPhillip, do you have to have cardiac arrest to understand it? For Pete's sake! All direct knowledge about any illness doesn't come from having that illness. We do take care of people rather competently without having to have every disease we deal with. You make an absurd claim that one has to use drugs to understand what addiction is.

I have a family line of alcoholics going back 4 generations that I know about. I'm a nurse practitioner with 30 years of experience. I've worked in a drug rehab hospital for a short time and currently provide infection control for a psych hospital where we detox a lot of addicts. That's in addition to a gazillion other experiences.

Anyone with minimal knowledge of addiction will tell you that you are totally off base about what drugs of abuse and addiction are. Caffeine and SSRIs are not drugs people seek out to get high on. Your comments make me wonder if you are trolling or really that naive.

If you could get high on caffeine and it was a pleasant sensation, you'd have meth addicts crushing tabs and injecting them. I've seen people try it. I've never seen them continue it.

 

[Dancing David]

My assumptions about SSRIs are limited. If in excess I said, the effects are enhanced, I see no reason that it hasn't addictive potential. I imagine depressed people overdose for this very reason.

Assertion of a belief is not evidence.

i imagine you know nothing about suicide.

...
Absence of direct knowledge is the mother of all flawed arguments. This is why people generally laugh, especially social/party drinkers, if you call habitual drinking a 'disease'.

It is to laugh, hoisted on your own petard?

personal experience blinds one to the actual evidence?

Yoiks and away!

Despite it being mutable, all people have an inate recognition of the subject.

The same is true of all mistaken beliefs.

the letter A is not responsible for all the letters of the alphabet. there is a plethora of mistaken beliefs, god and spirits are just one. The issue is human cognition and pattern matching. Some patterns will appear with no basis in fact.

 

[Dancing David]

My own attempts at conciseness. I just find the 'clinical' ones ambiguous.

How so?

The DSM criteria are what they are. The general use of depression is much more vauge. The syptoms of depression don't care if it is endogenous or expgenous. If you can't sleep for a month, it doesn't matter. All mental illnesses have a stress related component even the endogenous ones.

Situational Depression: An actual situation causes acute feelings of hopelessness, sadness, malaise, and anhedonia.

Exogenous depression.

If you can't sleep well for a month , it doesn't matter.

Chemical Depression: A physical imbalance causes situations to be interpreted in the above manner.

Endogenous depression.

Unless you are a dualist in the materialism vs. immaterialism sense it doesn't matter. If you have insomnia for an extended period because of grief or stress it doesn't matter, you have a physical reaction to stress.

Your body and circadian cycle is out of whack. The stress produces a physical effect? (Si or no?)

Hm?[/QUOTE]

 

[Dancing David]

SirPhillip, do you have to have cardiac arrest to understand it? For Pete's sake! All direct knowledge about any illness doesn't come from having that illness. We do take care of people rather competently without having to have every disease we deal with. You make an absurd claim that one has to use drugs to understand what addiction is.

I have a family line of alcoholics going back 4 generations that I know about. I'm a nurse practitioner with 30 years of experience. I've worked in a drug rehab hospital for a short time and currently provide infection control for a psych hospital where we detox a lot of addicts. That's in addition to a gazillion other experiences.

Anyone with minimal knowledge of addiction will tell you that you are totally off base about what drugs of abuse and addiction are. Caffeine and SSRIs are not drugs people seek out to get high on. Your comments make me wonder if you are trolling or really that naive.

If you could get high on caffeine and it was a pleasant sensation, you'd have meth addicts crushing tabs and injecting them. I've seen people try it. I've never seen them continue it.

Caffine addiction is a real thing, perhaps the consequences are less severe.

This link is so old I shouldn't post it, but I am feeling lazy:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/272/13/1043

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

My own attempts at conciseness. I just find the 'clinical' ones ambiguous.

Situational Depression: An actual situation causes acute feelings of hopelessness, sadness, malaise, and anhedonia.
Chemical Depression: A physical imbalance causes situations to be interpreted in the above manner.

My own model:

Depression is depression, its cause is the electrochemical balance in the brain. Every organism in particular has a different tolerance (physiological resistance) to it in relation to the environment, and this tolerance is genetical.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Caffine addiction is a real thing, perhaps the consequences are less severe.

This link is so old I shouldn't post it, but I am feeling lazy:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/272/13/1043

Caffeine habituation can have withdrawal symptoms. So if you are only describing addiction by tolerance and withdrawal symptoms you can include caffeine. Nicotine skirts the line. But how many addicts do you know who inject caffeine when they can't get high on some other speed? Enough of them try it that if it were the least bit pleasant it would be abused by meth addicts everywhere. There is no euphoria.

Caffeine is just in another category. Even people who drink pots of coffee a day aren't getting what one would define as "high" on it. That is the difference. There are many things people don't give up when advised to medically. That doesn't make those things addictions in the same sense as addictive drugs people get high on.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

This argument about caffeine is the same as calling consensual sex between an 18 yr old and a 14 yr old, rape, or a custody dispute, kidnapping.

 

[SirPhilip]

SirPhillip, do you have to have cardiac arrest to understand it? For Pete's sake! All direct knowledge about any illness doesn't come from having that illness. We do take care of people rather competently without having to have every disease we deal with. You make an absurd claim that one has to use drugs to understand what addiction is.

If I hit a slump and for some reason started drinking constantly, and you told me I had an illness or a disease, I'd likely laugh in your face.

I have a family line of alcoholics going back 4 generations that I know about. I'm a nurse practitioner with 30 years of experience. I've worked in a drug rehab hospital for a short time and currently provide infection control for a psych hospital where we detox a lot of addicts. That's in addition to a gazillion other experiences.

The laughter would only increase mentioning this. But seriously, we are discussing the causes of addiction and what constitutes inherent potential, not dance step procedures for detox. The procedure for detoxing is universal: reducing drug specific withdrawal, then getting them to value sobriety and find healthy coping mechanisms. I'm sure you can relate how to approach that, but you are probably at a loss to relate to the complex psychological and pharmacological merry devil that causes it to happen in the first place, which is the subject here.

Anyone with minimal knowledge of addiction will tell you that you are totally off base about what drugs of abuse and addiction are. Caffeine and SSRIs are not drugs people seek out to get high on. Your comments make me wonder if you are trolling or really that naive.

Derail. It's clear what I meant in both examples. The idea that antidepressants have a potential for dependency is an open curiosity. People with a low set mood are more likely to become habituated to any mood altering drug. In the case of SSRIs, these are often severe cases. As far as I know, SSRIs don't directly elevate mood, so this would seem unlikely, although that doesn't rule out the possibility. People exist who aren't actually clinically depressed but because of situation driven slumps they want them. In fact, I imagine they are the most common. They can't cope without them.

If you could get high on caffeine and it was a pleasant sensation, you'd have meth addicts crushing tabs and injecting them. I've seen people try it. I've never seen them continue it.

Caffeine is somewhat intrinsically addictive. Keep in mind that pure caffeine is very distinct from energy drinks/coffee - at 200mg, it lightly stimulates the CNS and at a pinch, functions as an antidepressant of sorts (it increases productivity due to this). It certainly does have recreational value - not nearly as much as amphetamines though. But lacking direct experience of caffeine at 'recreational' levels, your opinions only draw from anecdote.

 

[SirPhilip]

This argument about caffeine is the same as calling consensual sex between an 18 yr old and a 14 yr old, rape, or a custody dispute, kidnapping.

Caffeine can get you rocked, maam. It is in fact a powerful upper, so why aren't people in detox for it? Because:

• It is legal, has no harsh physical side effects over long term use, just an unpleasant hangover.
• The upper curve for it's recreational dose is 600mg (equivalent to five expressos), higher than 600mg it becomes very unpleasant. Theobromide, the stimulant found in chocolate, with effects similar to caffeine but more mood altering, has an ever shorter index. You are in other words physically prevented from taking more after a tolerance builds.

The ideal dose of caffeine is 150mg on an empty stomach, which provides a stable CNS simulation and attention enhancement. It actually is very complementary to prep meditation before sparring, a relationship martial arts teachers recognized in tea drinking.

 

[SirPhilip]

My own model:

Depression is depression, its cause is the electrochemical balance in the brain. Every organism in particular has a different tolerance (physiological resistance) to it in relation to the environment, and this tolerance is genetical.

While it is that simple, it also isn't. Circumstance equally determines that - which is why meaningful activities and relationships are a cornerstone of therapy. It's a balance most people have that is off in others.

 

[Dancing David]

Caffeine habituation can have withdrawal symptoms. So if you are only describing addiction by tolerance and withdrawal symptoms you can include caffeine. Nicotine skirts the line. But how many addicts do you know who inject caffeine when they can't get high on some other speed? Enough of them try it that if it were the least bit pleasant it would be abused by meth addicts everywhere. There is no euphoria.

Caffeine is just in another category. Even people who drink pots of coffee a day aren't getting what one would define as "high" on it. That is the difference. There are many things people don't give up when advised to medically. That doesn't make those things addictions in the same sense as addictive drugs people get high on.

As stated many times I define addiction from behaviors. So you can be a caffeine addict. The consequences may not be as severe as those for a gambling or cocaine addiction but they can still be an addiction.

I believe that addiction is determined by behaviors, a caffeine addict will not suffer the same consequences as other addictis. I would say that alcohol is the most damaging followed by methamphetamine and cocaine. Although methamphetamine may be in the lead as worst consequences winner.

 

[Dancing David]

This argument about caffeine is the same as calling consensual sex between an 18 yr old and a 14 yr old, rape, or a custody dispute, kidnapping.

Depends on the actors. rape is a legal defintion, some states don't have Romeo and Juliet laws, and then there is the issue of mental disability in giving consent.

Saying caffeine addiction is like saying you are driving 35 in a twenty mph zone instead of driving one hundred in a 65 mph zone. They are both over the speed limit.

 

[Dancing David]

While it is that simple, it also isn't. Circumstance equally determines that - which is why meaningful activities and relationships are a cornerstone of therapy. It's a balance most people have that is off in others.

Hmm, perhaps you should meditate upon what BDZ said.

Different people have diffent thresholds for stress tolerance, different people have different respoonses to stress when it passes the threshold.

How could you determine if sleeplessness was situational?

If someone has had insomnia for more than three weeks why would it matter?


What is they have had insomnia in the past.

So when the body of a depressed person becomes depressed from stress, how do you tell that from a person with endogenous depression who just has a lower tolerance for stress?


Really, think about that and try to answer it, they both have a stress related depression. The body is what becomes depressed, the brain is part of the body. Do you think that it is the Great Mind that becomes depressed? How can you find a mind without a body?

Are you a dualist?

 

[Bodhi Dharma Zen]

Hmm, perhaps you should meditate upon what BDZ said.

Different people have diffent thresholds for stress tolerance, different people have different respoonses to stress when it passes the threshold.

Yep. Whatsmore, reactions to particular situations depend on this thresholds and not in so called "psychological variables". An individual whos hands sweat merely talking or seeing a movie will react more emotionally to stress than another who only sweats in extreme danger (to put an example). Sometimes, with time and training, a brain can change its electrochemical responses to some stimuli, but this is not achieved by "will" or just "desiring it".

For some it will be easy to meditate, and its not fault of will that some others find it so difficult. Yet for other kind of individuals running in a bike at 150MPH will represent pleasure and for others pain, and this is not lack of character, its simply because their brain is different.

 

[SirPhilip]

Hmm, perhaps you should meditate upon what BDZ said. Different people have diffent thresholds for stress tolerance, different people have different respoonses to stress when it passes the threshold.

You actually could argue stress response is a determining factor to addictive behavior. I for example, enjoy stress. I probably get it from father, who was a workaholic.

How could you determine if sleeplessness was situational?

I would imagine anyone could discern the cause easily (whether it was physical or psychological).

If someone has had insomnia for more than three weeks why would it matter? What is they have had insomnia in the past.

I've experienced insomnia many times - but only because something was on my mind. Other times I would attribute it to caffeine.

So when the body of a depressed person becomes depressed from stress, how do you tell that from a person with endogenous depression who just has a lower tolerance for stress?

Generally, people who are chemically depressed cannot clearly identify a cause for it. When treated with an antidepressant, they perk up immediately. If depression arises due to a situation an example being a war veteran, medication can't treat it, alcohol however does. If someone with no hangups chemically induces anhedonia in themselves, emotionally they will simply be unable to experience anything as meaningful and take on a demeanor similar to how Mr.Spock is portrayed. Situational depression is much different and a daily battle with memorex, it is characterized by intrusive thoughts, intrusive reoccurring emotional trauma, and sadness. I suffered from the latter after a very bad breakup a few years ago. During that time which lasted about a year, I started drinking and forced myself to stay distracted. It worked. It reoccurs even today, a marriage of sadness and anger - enough that, if I don't force my attention away from it, my entire day can be ruined.

Really, think about that and try to answer it, they both have a stress related depression. The body is what becomes depressed, the brain is part of the body. Do you think that it is the Great Mind that becomes depressed? How can you find a mind without a body?

Of course not, but situations influence mood just as powerfully as imbalances. You can't treat someone from serious situational depression with antidepressants or even narcotics. Alcohol is really the only thing that works.

Are you a dualist?

Well, in the case of depression, there is a clear dynamism between memorex (psychological), physiology (chemical) that interact to determine that, I think you'd agree.

 

[Dancing David]

double post

 

[Dancing David]

You actually could argue stress response is a determining factor to addictive behavior. I for example, enjoy stress. I probably get it from father, who was a workaholic.

I would imagine anyone could discern the cause easily (whether it was physical or psychological).

Uh, huh.

Give me five or more questions that would determine that please. I have done assesment. You are ignoring the glaring point, which is this, there is no physical difference between endogenous and exogenous depression. Some one who is loosing sleep and having frequent suicidal ideation is still likely to be depressed, even if it is greif. You can not distinguish the symptoms for endogenous and exogenous depression. Sleeplessness is sleeplessness, and if you have it more than three weeks than your function will decrease, regardless of the source of the depression.

You seem to be operating under an artificial dichotomy. So how would you asses the situational component to depression?

Why would it matter, if you are planning to kill yourself, does it matter?

I've experienced insomnia many times - but only because something was on my mind. Other times I would attribute it to caffeine.

Did it last three weeks? (as I stated in my example).

Generally, people who are chemically depressed cannot clearly identify a cause for it.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. You are talking out of your imagination. A person who is severely depressed will give you many, many reasons for thier depression. I have interviewed plenty, have you? They will genraly ascribe greater meaning to minor events and have a laundry list of desperation.

When treated with an antidepressant, they perk up immediately.

Uh, huh. More assertion, it usualy takes at least six weeks if not longer for the symptoms of depression to begin to lessen. Where do you get your information?

If depression arises due to a situation an example being a war veteran

Which would be Post Traumatic Stress, perhaps accompanied by depression.

, medication can't treat it, alcohol however does.

More misinformation and psychobabble Sir Philip, please don't call numbing ones self with alcohol treatment. PTSD has a good response to a combination of talk therapy and medication. the path chosen is up to the individual, if they chose either, both or none.

If someone with no hangups chemically induces anhedonia in themselves, emotionally they will simply be unable to experience anything as meaningful and take on a demeanor similar to how Mr.Spock is portrayed.

More what? Can you clarify your statement, do you mean what? Most people I know who use to numb feelings are volitale after a while. What are you saying? Chronic use causes numbing? They are usualy more like Kirk.

Situational depression is much different and a daily battle with memorex, it is characterized by intrusive thoughts, intrusive reoccurring emotional trauma, and sadness.

That describes OCD or Major Depression with Anxiety. How is that different from someone with Major Depression having the same symptoms? What duration , frequency and length of occurance. What?
[/quote]
I suffered from the latter after a very bad breakup a few years ago. During that time which lasted about a year, I started drinking and forced myself to stay distracted. It worked. It reoccurs even today, a marriage of sadness and anger - enough that, if I don't force my attention away from it, my entire day can be ruined.
[/quote]
Sounds like it is not situational, if it didn't resolve in a short period and with lifestyle changes. Perhaps CBT? (Cognitive Behavioral is good for what you describe as memorex.)

After a year it is no longer situational. It has taken up residence, the severity of the anxiety or depression would be assesed.

Of course not, but situations influence mood just as powerfully as imbalances. You can't treat someone from serious situational depression with antidepressants or even narcotics. Alcohol is really the only thing that works.

Uh, huh? And what data, what research. What makes you say that medication will not alleviate symptoms. The perscription of narcotics is not advised for that use.

Alcohol is not treatment. That is what you call addicted thinking?

Well, in the case of depression, there is a clear dynamism between memorex (psychological), physiology (chemical) that interact to determine that, I think you'd agree.

When you explain what you mean and how you can tell the difference?

The two are part and parcel of the same thing, the human brain. The emotions, memories, thoughst and behaviors are all part of the same organ, the brain. they interact and are part of the same glob of neuronal goo.

Situational response to a situation is usualy like nine weeks long. Getting drunk doesn't help and is not treatment. The use of alcohol to deal with issues might be a hallmark of abuse or dependance.

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

As stated many times I define addiction from behaviors. So you can be a caffeine addict. The consequences may not be as severe as those for a gambling or cocaine addiction but they can still be an addiction.

Are you seriously comparing the behavior of a caffeine addict to a heroin or meth addict?

 

[Skeptic Ginger]

Depends on the actors. rape is a legal defintion, some states don't have Romeo and Juliet laws, and then there is the issue of mental disability in giving consent.

Saying caffeine addiction is like saying you are driving 35 in a twenty mph zone instead of driving one hundred in a 65 mph zone. They are both over the speed limit.

Come on, Dave, if caffeine addiction was anything like addiction to serious drugs of abuse why is it unnecessary to make its purchase illegal? You don't even have to be 18.

You are comparing apples and oranges. You can find things in common, they are roundish and they are fruits and according to an Ignobel awarded study have similar chemical compositions, but everyone knows when you say you are comparing apples and oranges why they are not the same.

 

[Dancing David]

Are you seriously comparing the behavior of a caffeine addict to a heroin or meth addict?

Please read the DSM defintion/criteria for dependance and abuse, I am using behaviors in the psychological sense of behaviorism.

If we use the DSM criteria to derine what constitutes an addiction then yes is is based upon behaviors. Now how many people are going to have a detriment to daily functioning and negative consequences for caffine addiction compared to other substances? Very low, probably only a few out of millions and millions.