• Quick note - the problem with Youtube videos not embedding on the forum appears to have been fixed, thanks to ZiprHead. If you do still see problems let me know.

Acupuncture - scam or legit?

arthwollipot said:
The effectiveness of placebos is vastly exaggerated.
Click to expand...

But, anecdotes seemed to be effective at convincing people that unproven things work. Someone recently tried to convince my wife to take some "supplement" that is popular.now based on a bunch of stories he has heard about the amazing things is has done for people he knows (or people that people he knows know ....). Anyway, I looked it up and there is no evidence at all that it works.
 
A friend of mine that ran a dive boat hurt his back lifting the front of the boat onto the roller for the winch. He could hardly move. The next day he showed up almost walking normally and he explained that he had gone for acupuncture.

I pulled my back weightlifting in a gym and could hardly move. I called my friend and asked for the number of the acupuncturist. A buddy went along for the ride and helped my out of my jeep and up the stairs to the guys office. Eventually I went and laid on his table and he put some pins in my hand and other places which I couldn't feel.
I started sweating right away and apologized and he said that was to help warm up my system. He explained that there were a limited number of things that acupuncture was useful for but he could help me with my back.
He explained that when a muscle gets injured that the area will tighten up to protect the injured area and that he was going to remove the pain but that I had to move like I was still injured otherwise more damage would be done.
He also helped align my spine and explained how to safely get out of bed by lowering my legs over the side of the bed while pushing my torso upward.

I walked out of the office about 35 minutes later and could move around on my own without much pain. My back felt great but I took his advice and moved slowly and cautiously.

I'm not into woo woo or many other forms of nonsense so when I read that so many people think it is bunk I am shocked but I respect that perspective.
Having injured my back in similar ways I know that I avoided a couple of days of significant pain and stiffness and I used to recommend the guy to other people.
There was no placebo effect. I would do the same thing again if I knew of a reputable practitioner.
It bothers me that I have first hand experience and know it works when so many respectable people here disagree.
All the best everyone.
 
A friend of mine that ran a dive boat hurt his back lifting the front of the boat onto the roller for the winch. He could hardly move. The next day he showed up almost walking normally and he explained that he had gone for acupuncture.

I pulled my back weightlifting in a gym and could hardly move. I called my friend and asked for the number of the acupuncturist. A buddy went along for the ride and helped my out of my jeep and up the stairs to the guys office. Eventually I went and laid on his table and he put some pins in my hand and other places which I couldn't feel.
I started sweating right away and apologized and he said that was to help warm up my system. He explained that there were a limited number of things that acupuncture was useful for but he could help me with my back.
He explained that when a muscle gets injured that the area will tighten up to protect the injured area and that he was going to remove the pain but that I had to move like I was still injured otherwise more damage would be done.
He also helped align my spine and explained how to safely get out of bed by lowering my legs over the side of the bed while pushing my torso upward.

I walked out of the office about 35 minutes later and could move around on my own without much pain. My back felt great but I took his advice and moved slowly and cautiously.

I'm not into woo woo or many other forms of nonsense so when I read that so many people think it is bunk I am shocked but I respect that perspective.
Having injured my back in similar ways I know that I avoided a couple of days of significant pain and stiffness and I used to recommend the guy to other people.
There was no placebo effect. I would do the same thing again if I knew of a reputable practitioner.
It bothers me that I have first hand experience and know it works when so many respectable people here disagree.
All the best everyone.
 
Warmer1 said:
A friend of mine that ran a dive boat hurt his back lifting the front of the boat onto the roller for the winch. He could hardly move. The next day he showed up almost walking normally and he explained that he had gone for acupuncture.
Click to expand...

Anecdotal, post hoc fallacy.
If this worked, as has been said, it would show up in controlled studies. Thus far, it has not.

Warmer1 said:
I pulled my back weightlifting in a gym and could hardly move. I called my friend and asked for the number of the acupuncturist. A buddy went along for the ride and helped my out of my jeep and up the stairs to the guys office. Eventually I went and laid on his table and he put some pins in my hand and other places which I couldn't feel.
I started sweating right away and apologized and he said that was to help warm up my system.
Click to expand...

What does that even mean?
Did he say beforehand that you would start sweating, or was that an acupuncture version of hot reading, in which your symptoms were retrospectively attributed to the needles?

Warmer1 said:
He explained that there were a limited number of things that acupuncture was useful for but he could help me with my back.
He explained that when a muscle gets injured that the area will tighten up to protect the injured area and that he was going to remove the pain but that I had to move like I was still injured otherwise more damage would be done.
He also helped align my spine and explained how to safely get out of bed by lowering my legs over the side of the bed while pushing my torso upward.
Click to expand...

Now explain what part acupuncture had in your improvement, that could not have been achieved by the spinal manipulation and posture work. Or was acupuncture again being given credit for something it had actually not affected at all?

Warmer1 said:
I'm not into woo woo or many other forms of nonsense so when I read that so many people think it is bunk I am shocked but I respect that perspective.
Having injured my back in similar ways I know that I avoided a couple of days of significant pain and stiffness and I used to recommend the guy to other people.
Click to expand...

If you are not into woo, then perhaps you could offer a non-woo explanation as to how acupuncture works?

Warmer1 said:
There was no placebo effect.
Click to expand...

How do you know this?

Warmer1 said:
I would do the same thing again if I knew of a reputable practitioner.
It bothers me that I have first hand experience and know it works when so many respectable people here disagree.
All the best everyone.
Click to expand...

It bothers me when people quote their anecdotes as if they were evidence. I have pointed out here the possible flaws in your thinking. Do at least give this some thought.
 
It's understandable that people tend to give more weight to their own personal experiences than to dusty academic papers in scientific journals - understandable, but a mistake. It's surprisingly easy to inadvertently fool yourself into believing something that isn't true as a result of personal experiences, because it's simply impossible to account for all the possible variables in such experiences. That's why the scientific method had to be invented, and why a single carefully controlled, double blinded scientific trial is a better way of correctly attributing cause to effect (or establishing that there even is an effect) than than any number of anecdotes.
 
Just to re-inforce what The Yak and Pixel have said: one cannot know that placebo isn't happening, as it affects all of us, even notorious cynics like me; back "injuries" are notorious for resolving spontaneoulsy or not responding to treatment at all; there is no plausible anatomical or physiological mechanism by which acupuncture can work; no well-conducted research has found any effects over and above placebo.

Related to placebo, I heard something on a radio programme (More or Less on Radio 4, for UK-ians) the other day, which I need to pursue further, that strongly suggested that increased levels of expectation of a positive outcome increase the power of the placebo effect.
 
pipelineaudio said:
There's no such thing as western medicine, you know that....When you write stuff like this, some numbnutz anti vaxxer is going to quote mine you
Click to expand...

:rolleyes:

What's with this "you know it" crap? I don't care who quote mines me. It's not like I'm any flavor of "influencer".

Definition of Western medicine
: the typical methods of healing or treating disease that are taught in Western medical schools

What is Western Medicine?
Western medicine is the term used to describe the treatment of medical conditions with medications, by doctors, nurses and other conventional healthcare providers who employ methods developed according to Western medical and scientific traditions. Other names for Western medicine include traditional medicine or allopathic medicine. It differs from Eastern, or alternative, medicine, in its approach to treatment, which relies heavily upon industrially produced medications and a strict adherence to the formal scientific process.
Click to expand...
 
xjx388 said:
I will stipulate that accupuncture does not work by manipulating qi/chi meridians.

However:

https://www.aafp.org/news/health-of-the-public/20180521acupuncture.html

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamaoncology/article-abstract/2777349

https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/wellness-and-prevention/acupuncture

https://www.nccih.nih.gov/health/ac...nce Says About,, and osteoarthritis/knee pain.

Those are some legit groups and journals that say it can be effective for certain conditions. Johns Hopskins gives a whole list of conditions they say may benefit from it.

I don't know what to tell you but those are some heavy endorsements right there.
Click to expand...
Allow me: it's called the placebo effect.

And as for all those websites/organizations with claims it is a valid treatment: Like I said, a number of healthcare workers/organizations have been misled by poorly designed and sometimes outright fraudulent studies.

However, Every one of those citations note it can be helpful in chronic pain. I don't disagree.

Chiropractic care has a similar profile: Not counting the legit physical therapy some chiropractic providers practice, when it comes to treating chronic pain like some forms of back pain, we don't do so well. Alternative therapies are sometimes better than the narcotics we typically treat such pain with.
 
Last edited:
It seems that triggering a bunch of nerves using little needles might help mask pain like Capsaicin ointments or a heating pad do. But, even if that is true, it doesn't mean that acupuncture is a safe and effective treatment for pain. And, the practitioners of acupuncture claim, without evidence, that it does much more than that. And, even when used to help relieve pain, the practitioner wouldn't be able to diagnose or treat the underlying cause of the pain which may cause the victim, err patient, harm by not getting the proper treatment.
 
Carrot Flower King said:
Just to re-inforce what The Yak and Pixel have said: one cannot know that placebo isn't happening, as it affects all of us, even notorious cynics like me; back "injuries" are notorious for resolving spontaneoulsy or not responding to treatment at all; there is no plausible anatomical or physiological mechanism by which acupuncture can work; no well-conducted research has found any effects over and above placebo.

Related to placebo, I heard something on a radio programme (More or Less on Radio 4, for UK-ians) the other day, which I need to pursue further, that strongly suggested that increased levels of expectation of a positive outcome increase the power of the placebo effect.
Click to expand...

Just re-listened to the relevant episode of More or Less: David Robson was on talking about things in his new book, The Expectation Effect. Copy just ordered so I can look further at those ideas and what supports them or not...
 
Carrot Flower King said:
Just re-listened to the relevant episode of More or Less: David Robson was on talking about things in his new book, The Expectation Effect. Copy just ordered so I can look further at those ideas and what supports them or not...
Click to expand...

Is the Expectation Effect basically the power of suggestion?
 
The Moog said:
I did read an interesting study where they compared traditional acupuncture with poking people in random places with cocktail sticks (without puncturing the skin). There was no difference.
Its been a long time but I'll see if I can dig that up again.
Yep, found it. They compared Individualised acupuncture, standard acupuncture and poking at random with toothpicks. The results of all these were the same.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832641/
Click to expand...
Did the toothpicks still have food on them? That might have altered the results...
 
Carrot Flower King said:
Just re-listened to the relevant episode of More or Less: David Robson was on talking about things in his new book, The Expectation Effect. Copy just ordered so I can look further at those ideas and what supports them or not...
Click to expand...
Rather less than more: More or Less misses the mark on placebo effects

More or Less is an award-winning investigative radio show and podcast from the BBC. Presented by Tim Harford, the programme examines the accuracy of statistics in the news and popular culture. Their work is frequently praised by skeptics for its diligent deconstruction and debunking of misinformation. All of which made it more disappointing when, for their January 26th 2022 episode, More or Less seemed to get it so wrong in a brief conversation about the Placebo Effect...
Click to expand...

There's more on this in the Placebo Effect thread, and encourage discussion of the effect in that thread.
 
The Moog said:
I did read an interesting study where they compared traditional acupuncture with poking people in random places with cocktail sticks (without puncturing the skin). There was no difference.
Its been a long time but I'll see if I can dig that up again.
Yep, found it. They compared Individualised acupuncture, standard acupuncture and poking at random with toothpicks. The results of all these were the same.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2832641/
Click to expand...

Just read that. Those that received any treatment improved over those that received nothing. I wonder how that works?
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Back
Top Bottom