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[fls]

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[Jeff Corey]

... If you wish I can help you becoming the Italian Cultural Attaché in New York. You are fully qualified for that job...

I thought Peggi Orativo already had that job.

 

[fls]

Is anyone fooled by those people who attack the person not the argument? Do we really have to waste time responding to personal attacks as though the attacker is going to persuade anyone else through these techniques?

(I realize that it is somewhat hypocritical (or maybe just late) of me to ask this, based on what happened earlier in this thread. )

Linda

 

[Rodney]

And it's also catching on in New Hampshire: http://www.sentinelsource.com/main....ArticleID=184911&SectionID=48&SubSectionID=72

 

[dogjones]

I have been for 3 years CEO in a big Pharma company

Looking at your name, do you actually mean a big Neutra company?

 

[fls]

And it's also catching on in New Hampshire: http://www.sentinelsource.com/main....ArticleID=184911&SectionID=48&SubSectionID=72

Once you expect it to work, how could you come up with anything that wouldn't work under uncontrolled conditions?

Linda

 

[Jeff Corey]

And it's also catching on in New Hampshire: http://www.sentinelsource.com/main....ArticleID=184911&SectionID=48&SubSectionID=72

They must have rocks in their heads in the Granite State.

 

[Rolfe]

I accept these results because I've carefully checked the qualifications of all the people involved in this research and they are certainly more qualified than any member of this Forum.

[Snip lots of requests to provide details of said qualifications]

Rolfe - one more thing: why should I share his qualifications with people that insults me? You are so intelligent so find it by yourself!

Do I take it from this that you're concerned you might actually be down £100,000 if we take this pissing contest to the wire? Since I assume you looked the guy up in a paper register of members of something-or-other in Italy, this attitude should see your money safe enough.

Hmmm, if I've insulted you I'm not at the moment prepared to apologise, considering the insults you've hurled at me since I started questioning your absurd argument from authority. Still, I don't remember actually trying to insult you in this thread, so perhaps you'd be good enough to quote the comment(s) of mine which you regard as insulting?

However, I really came past for a different reason. I just remembered something.

I repeat my earlier statement: I think Prof Facco isby far much better qualified in his field of competence than anyone in this Forum (me included). If Rolfe or someone else can prove to me that she/he more qualified than Prof Facco than I'm willing to pay for his summer holidays on the Adriatic coast (where I live).

David Colquhoun is a member of this Forum.

Phytotherapist, you lose.

Rolfe.

 

[Rolfe]

I learned how to evaluate peole according to what they write so I'm can certainly note a difference between a well educated person and not. [snip gratuitous insult]

And then....

Rolfe - By the way, Capello is the English team manager earning millions and his English is not that perfect. As you can see only proper qualifications are really important in all fields of life.

So which is it? You can evaluate people according to what they write, and can tell whether someone is well educated or not (and I'm not, apparently), or one's language skills are irrelevant.

Make up your damn mind.

Rolfe.

 

[Deetee]

Yeah, I too had forgotten about David Colquhoun.

Regardless, I reckon I have more University-awarded medical qualifications/degrees/diplomas than does Prof Enrico Facco (as well as more peer-reviewed publications)

I win.

Forget the £100 000, Phyto, I am not interested in your money. You keep it to swan around the casinos in Monaco where you say you bet (lose?) vast sums.

I'll settle for a simple apology to Rolfe instead.

 

[Rolfe]

I reckon I have more University-awarded medical qualifications/degrees/diplomas than does Prof Enrico Facco (as well as more peer-reviewed publications).

I rather thought you might have.

I suspect Phytotherapist's sudden reluctance to reveal Prof. Facco's alphabet soup rating may be related to his dawning realisation that there might be quite a few people here in that category. (I note that David Colquhoun has the ultimate in minimalist alphabet soup - the FRS. I was just musing what would be the uber-trump "qualification" if you weren't limiting your range to a specific subject or field, and of course it has to be that. Once you've attained that one, you just drop the rest because they're irrelevant/insignificant/taken as read.)

I win.

Be my guest. But I think you'll find you only get the holiday on the Adriatic coast. The £100,000 was specifically directed at me.

Forget the £100 000, Phyto, I am not interested in your money. You keep it to swan around the casinos in Monaco where you say you bet (lose?) vast sums.

Looking back over the thread I've been struck by how often Phytotherapist chooses to judge people's worth by how much money they have. Berlusconi, Mercola and that football manager, what's his name, Capello?, are all put forward as being worthy of admiration/emulation simply on the basis of them having amassed large sums of money. How shallow.

I'd forgotten about the casinos in Monaco. That one's revealing too of course.

I'll settle for a simple apology to Rolfe instead.

Forget it, he's not going to apologise to anyone. I'll settle for him squirming a bit, and I think we've had that.

Rolfe.

 

[Acleron]

Rolfe - one more thing: why should I share his qualifications with people that insults me? You are so intelligent so find it by yourself!

Rolfe did not insult you. Rolfe questioned a statement you made.

If you have spent many years acquiring qualifications and think this makes you immune to criticism your years have been wasted.

You seem so exercised by the disclosed faults in the OP's paper, are you one of the authors?

 

[Darat]

Lets drop the "personality" posts and get back to the main topic of this thread.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

 

[Rolfe]

Thread killer!

Rolfe.

 

[BillyJoe]

We are looking at a highly skewed sample.

Many times these studies are chosen specifically because they are not generally accepted by mainstream medicine - they are provided as support for DIM, they represent something newsworthy from a lay perspective, they are reporting on something truly cutting edge, someone wishes to give the appearance of controversy, etc. This makes them more likely to have significant flaws (that research supporting DIM has those characteristics that increase the likelihood of invalid results is essentially a tautology) and makes it more likely for someone (either the authors, the DIM supporter or the reporter) to attempt to draw conclusions that are not supported by the data from the research.

Well, that is good to hear.
But is it possible to set up a mechanism whereby these flawed trials can be killed before they start? It seems to be such a dreadful waste of time effort and energy to conduct trials that were never going to provide any useful information in the first place.

Well, this goes to the root of the problem, which is the attitude that the average person can and should 'figure this out for themselves'.

I am really surprised Ivor hasn't jumped all over this yet.
(Oh wait, maybe he hasn't yet figured out for himself what you mean )

And their unconcern is when I would feel my ignorance most acutely - when I don't even know that I don't know something (ummm...that probably doesn't make sense).

You mean when you don't know that they don't know that they don't know? (or something)

I agree that it would be nice, but c'est la vie.

No cures then for these sick trials?

There are specific strategies you can use to be more efficient. The screening questions I mentioned earlier are part of a larger strategy on how to stay up-to-date. But, why are you reading abstracts in the first place?

Mostly because they are linked to on the forums.
I spent a bit of time on an alternative health forum some time ago. Most posters were homoeopaths and many were also anti-vacinators. And they were overly fond of posting a multitude of links "for my education" about the harms of vaccines. In the end I dispaired of trying to point out to unquestioniong eyes the flaws found in the original papers (when I could find them, that is, and when I didnt have to pay for them)

He did not answer, but I wonder if he is unusual or whether the culture of evidence-based medicine has yet to permeate Italy.

Really? Italy is like India? Surely not as bad as that.
One of the posters on that forum purported to be a medically trained practitioner in India using every sort of alternative health practice. It was scary to think he could be actually treating patients.

 

[BillyJoe]

Lets drop the "personality" posts and get back to the main topic of this thread.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Darat

Oops!

 

[fls]

Well, that is good to hear.
But is it possible to set up a mechanism whereby these flawed trials can be killed before they start? It seems to be such a dreadful waste of time effort and energy to conduct trials that were never going to provide any useful information in the first place.

In the publish or perish environment, there are ways to pay more attention to the quality, rather than the quantity of the research - looking at how many times an article is cited by others, for example. More journals could comply with publishing only trials that were registered before they were started (see: http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/NEJMe048225). It could be made more difficult for manufacturers to provide incentives for studies whose purpose is to promote their product. (some examples)

I am really surprised Ivor hasn't jumped all over this yet.
(Oh wait, maybe he hasn't yet figured out for himself what you mean )

I suspect I'm considered a lost cause.

You mean when you don't know that they don't know that they don't know? (or something)

I was thinking mostly of myself. As I learn more and more, I discover that almost all the stuff I have figured out for myself that differs from those more knowledgeable than me turns out to be due to ignorance on my part. For example, as I was learning about QM and the big deal made about the Copenhagen interpretation, my initial thought was "here's an example of how far these morons (speaking of Einstein and Bohr, of course) have their head up their ass. It's obviously just hidden variables."

Through careful observation and experimentation, I have come to the realization that this applies to others as well, although I continue to look for disconfirming evidence.

Mostly because they are linked to on the forums.
I spent a bit of time on an alternative health forum some time ago. Most posters were homoeopaths and many were also anti-vacinators. And they were overly fond of posting a multitude of links "for my education" about the harms of vaccines. In the end I dispaired of trying to point out to unquestioniong eyes the flaws found in the original papers (when I could find them, that is, and when I didnt have to pay for them)

I see. I think that under those circumstances you are mostly reading the abstracts for yourself? To confirm that you aren't missing some important and valid information that would lend weight to their opinions? I think that if you knew what screening questions to ask when reading the abstract, you could at least satisfy yourself as to whether valid conclusions could be drawn from the study and whether those conlcusions would support their opinions. If the answer is "no" it would save you some work.

http://www.cche.net/usersguides/start.asp#T1

from this:

http://www.cche.net/usersguides/start.asp#Deciding

Really? Italy is like India? Surely not as bad as that.

No, but it may be similar to the general culture of 20 years ago in North America/Australia/UK.

Linda

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

I suspect I'm considered a lost cause.

Not at all. Given that I generally agree with your point of view, I see little reason to argue with you over this subject. Rest assured, if you say something I do disagree with, I'll let you know.

Not only that, but I've been busy figuring out the details of a GNU C complier for the microcontroller I'm using to build a portable 6-lead ECG, studying statistics and reading medical books.

And you thought you were a freak!

 

[Phytotherapist]

Linda - Thank you! Your words have been sent to the author and as soon as I'll get the answer I'll let you know.

You are right: personal attacks are inappropriate. Jeff Corey told me, in Italian, to get f..... In my whole life I never did such a thing to anyone.

 

[BillyJoe]

Jeff Corey told me, in Italian, to get f..... In my whole life I never did such a thing to anyone.

You shouldn't complain, then, if she goes elsewhere, the poor thing.


Phytotherapist, you need a thick skin on the forums.
Water off a ducks back and all that.
(Make your arguments stick though )


regards,
BJ