Acupuncture appears to show results.

[The Atheist]

Does the average taxi driver tell his passengers that he's about to undertake a process which could kill them?

I'd be happy enough that someone getting in a car understands what risks they're undertaking. Poor analogy.

 

[fls]

This link Blue Wode posted today seems relevant to this discussion.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/li...tml?in_article_id=559711&in_page_id=1774&ct=5

Studies have shown that acupuncture treatments can result in slight pain, bleeding or bruising.

These adverse reactions are only minor and transient, but they occur in roughly 10 per cent of patients so are relatively common.

...

Although most patients may accept such risks as an unsurprising consequence of being pierced with needles, there are two serious adverse effects to consider.

The first is infection. There have been several documented cases of patients contracting diseases such as hepatitis.

The journal Hepatology documented how 35 out of 366 patients contracted hepatitis B from an acupuncture clinic in America.

The infection was caused by re-using needles that have not been properly sterilised, and part of the problem may be due to the Chinese tradition of storing needles in alcohol solutions, which is not sufficient to protect against hepatitis viruses.

The second is that needles might puncture a major nerve or organ.

For example, needling at the base of the skull can lead to brain damage, and there are more than 60 reported cases of punctured lungs.

Most worrying of all, there is a report of an acupuncturist inserting a needle in the chest of an Austrian patient which pierced her heart and killed her.

With the same qualifications that were given here.

Although acupuncture carries some common and serious risks, it is important to stress that the common risks are not at all serious and the serious risks are not at all common - they need to be seen in the context of the millions of treatments given each year.

Moreover, the serious risks can be minimised by visiting a medicallytrained acupuncturist who has a full knowledge of anatomy and uses disposable needles.

Linda

 

[fls]

Linda - I'm sorry for what I said to you but I can't agree with youwhen you say that qualifications (medical) are not important.

That's okay. I didn't say medical qualifications are not important, so no worries.

I'm not practicing Acupuncture and I've never referred a single patient to an acupuncturist (an MD in Italy). However, after this study of Prof Facco, and the fact that Acupuncture has been endorsed by the Italian Ministry of Health and introduced in our Medical Schools (actually there are 4 Masters) and public hospitals, I wouldn't hesitate to refer a patient with intractable migrane to a qualified MD.

I've commented before that whether or not a particular practice is endorsed by the Ministry of Health or equivalent body in North America seems to depend more upon politics than upon science. Is politics quite different in Italy?

The fact that Acupuncture has little or no economic interests is very significant.

What do you mean by that? Practitioners or equipment suppliers don't get paid?

Why do you see that as significant?

The only other complementary discipline that has been awarded an academic status by our Medical Schools is Phytotherapy (in which I'm much more interested) but then, one may think that it was only because huge economic interests are behind it, e.g. Bayer etc. On the other hand, no other so called complementary or alternative discipline has been (and never will) awarded such a status ( Homeopathy, Chiropractic, Osteopathy etc.).

What about the process makes you certain they will never achieve that status?

Do you think the Italian medical scientists are quacks?

That's a good question. Surveys have shown that there is a greater tolerance of alternative therapies in Europe than in North America. That seems to extend to physicians as well. To what degree does the Ministry of Health reflect the attitudes of physicians as opposed to politicians? To what extent has the culture of Evidence-Based-Medicine become part of medical practice in Italy?

Is it acupuncture that has been introduced into medical school, or is it the use of needling for specific conditions for which some evidence exists that has been introduced?

Your daughter made the right choise. The only thing in Japan the official language is Japanese and not Mandarin.

Yes, she is aware of that.

If she's interested in Medicine (real) the Italian language would be a good option. In Italy we have high quality Public Medical Schools (there are no private M.S.) that are subsidized by the State and the annual fee is minimal compared to that of US or other western countries.

That is also the situation in Canada (I'm Canadian, although I moved to the US a few years ago).

Linda

 

[Phytotherapist]

According to the Italian law, Acupuncture is a medical act and only qualified medical practitioners should be allowed to practice it. This is not enough for me because any (untrained) MD can practice it. Acupuncture should be reserved only to MDs qualified in Acupuncture.

Acupuncture has nothing to do with the so called "natural medicine". Have you ever seen a dog sticking needles in another dog?

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

Is politics quite different in Italy?

LOL!



http://www.cosmopolis.ch/english/cosmo6/italy.htm

 

[JJM]

According to the Italian law, Acupuncture is a medical act and only qualified medical practitioners should be allowed to practice it. This is not enough for me because any (untrained) MD can practice it. Acupuncture should be reserved only to MDs qualified in Acupuncture.

In the USA, we have accredited schools for astrology. Do you imagine the graduates are better than untrained astrologers? Properly trained, or not, acupuncture and astrology are unsupported by facts. How do you distinguish among the pin-pushers, homeopaths, chiropractors and osteopaths? On another thread you praised American chiropractors.

Acupuncture has nothing to do with the so called "natural medicine". Have you ever seen a dog sticking needles in another dog?

What?

 

[fls]

I sometimes wonder if they could avoid all these problems with flawed clinical trials if researchers were required to submit their research protocol before actually conducting their clinical trials.

Perhaps we could have panels of experts in clinical trial design who would either approve the protocol submitted allowing the trial to go ahead or send it back to the researchers for fine tuning or a complete overhaul.

Perhaps these panels of experts could also write a book on clinical trial design which would be required reading for anyone thinking of setting up a clinical trial.

The part I bolded is what I think is responsible for problems, such as the one in this study. All too often, the study has already started (if not completed) or the plan is too far along to change by the time the formal process of approval (grants, ethics, etc.) has been initiated. You can see where the temptation to carry on and hope no one notices comes in, I think. And has been demonstrated in this thread, it's not an unreasonable hope.

There does seem to be quite a bit of variation in experience and training in research design among those performing clinical research. I think one of the main benefits of evidence-based medicine was the "how to read a paper" series, which recognizes that it can't be assumed that the research was well-designed and that the conclusions of the authors are of little relevance.

Linda

 

[Rolfe]

Now that Phytotherapist is back, can I raise this one again?

I've carefully checked the qualifications of all the people involved in this research and they are certainly more qualified than any member of this Forum.

Er, what do you know about the qualifications of anyone on this forum? Me, say? Or JJM? Or Badly Shaved Monkey? Or DeeTee? Or fls? Or Pipirr? Or Wilsontown?

I'm looking for some evidence that Phytotherapist can substantiate his claim - that he is familiar with the qualifications of every member of the JREF Forum, and so knows that these quacks are all "more qualified" than anyone here.

Rolfe.

 

[Deetee]

Now that Phytotherapist is back, can I raise this one again?


I'm looking for some evidence that Phytotherapist can substantiate his claim - that he is familiar with the qualifications of every member of the JREF Forum, and so knows that these quacks are all "more qualified" than anyone here.

Rolfe.

I also win through "BioInfoBank-fight" regarding the number of peer-reviewed journal papers I have published......

(True, mine are not on acupuncture....)

 

[Phytotherapist]

Rolfe - You claim to be a Vet and I have no reason to believe you are not. So most members that you mentioned introduced themselfs as doctors, nerses etc. I have been for 3 years CEO in a big Pharma company and I learned how to evaluate peole according to what they write so I'm can certainly note a difference between a well educated person and not. In your case it is not. Unqualified people in medicine that cannot see the difference between Acupuncture and astrology can be only unsuccessful quacks (unlike dr. Mercola that is successful in terms of money).

 

[Dogdoctor]

Rolfe - You claim to be a Vet and I have no reason to believe you are not. So most members that you mentioned introduced themselfs as doctors, nerses etc. I have been for 3 years CEO in a big Pharma company and I learned how to evaluate peole according to what they write so I'm can certainly note a difference between a well educated person and not. In your case it is not. Unqualified people in medicine that cannot see the difference between Acupuncture and astrology can be only unsuccessful quacks (unlike dr. Mercola that is successful in terms of money).

This is entirely a personal attack on Rofle and uncalled for. If you want to educate us tell us something real that we don't know. Leave the personal stuff out of it.

 

[Normal Dude]

I have been for 3 years CEO in a big Pharma company

Which company?

 

[fls]

Unqualified people in medicine that cannot see the difference between Acupuncture and astrology can be only unsuccessful quacks (unlike dr. Mercola that is successful in terms of money).

The similarity between acupuncture and astrology is that the same kind of approach (mainly looking for patterns in the absence of controls or blinding) led to the development of an elaborate system of explanation which turned out not to correspond to any real processes. They have been superceded by much better knowledge, yet people still cling to them for non-scientific reasons. There are components of acupuncture that may have a specific effect for reasons that we are illuminating using scientific methods, but that doesn't really legitimize the non-scientific approach used by traditional methods.

Linda

 

[JJM]

Rolfe - You claim to be a Vet and I have no reason to believe you are not. So most members that you mentioned introduced themselfs as doctors, nerses etc. I have been for 3 years CEO in a big Pharma company and I learned how to evaluate peole according to what they write so I'm can certainly note a difference between a well educated person and not. In your case it is not. Unqualified people in medicine that cannot see the difference between Acupuncture and astrology can be only unsuccessful quacks (unlike dr. Mercola that is successful in terms of money).

Personal attacks are in bad taste.

More to the point, please note that it was I who compared acupuncture to astrology, as they are equally unfounded. If you have evidence to the contrary, citing it would be more appropriate than questioning my education.

 

[Ivor the Engineer]

As I'm one of the least qualified in the thread, could one of you PhD's tell me what we are talking about now?

Is it some kind of p*ssing contest based on who has the biggest set of qualifications and published work?

 

[wahrheit]

Which company?

A company lacking a spell checker.

Sorry for that remark, but given this post and the sentence I emphasized:

Rolfe - You claim to be a Vet and I have no reason to believe you are not. So most members that you mentioned introduced themselfs as doctors, nerses etc. I have been for 3 years CEO in a big Pharma company and I learned how to evaluate peole according to what they write so I'm can certainly note a difference between a well educated person and not. In your case it is not. Unqualified people in medicine that cannot see the difference between Acupuncture and astrology can be only unsuccessful quacks (unlike dr. Mercola that is successful in terms of money).

... I could not resist to point out the irony here. I hope Phytotherapist will not be judged by what he writes.

(Yes, I know it's not his first language, I understand that perfectly well, obviously. It still comes across as very pompous and patronizing though.)

ETA: Sorry, I should not have said that.

 

[JJM]

{snip}

That was in poor taste, too. If you can still edit it, you could replace it with "Sorry, I should not have said that."

 

[Rolfe]

'm can certainly note a difference between a well educated person and not. In your case it is not.

Gee, thanks buster. I'll let my university know how unsuccessful they were. Maybe I better tell my publisher too.

Unqualified people in medicine that cannot see the difference between Acupuncture and astrology can be only unsuccessful quacks (unlike dr. Mercola that is successful in terms of money).

One, I'm not an "unqualified person in medicine". Two, I don't recall ever making any comparison between acupuncture and astrology. Off the top of my head, one may be physically harmful because its practitioners stick needles in patients, while the other does not engage in assault on its clients. One claims to be based in physical rationality of cause and effect, while the other is openly supernatural in its claims.

And three, who or what is "dr. Mercola"?

Rolfe.

 

[wahrheit]

That was in poor taste, too. If you can still edit it, you could replace it with "Sorry, I should not have said that."

Your wish is my command. But I added the above rather than replace the entire post with it – readers wouldn't know what your comment was about if I changed my post completely.

 

[JJM]

As I'm one of the least qualified in the thread, could one of you PhD's tell me what we are talking about now?

Is it some kind of p*ssing contest based on who has the biggest set of qualifications and published work?

Not much, really; we have dismissed the acupuncture paper.

No, I don't think it is a contest since it does not have two sides with respect to claimed qualifications. There is just Phyto claiming the rest of us don't know what we are writing about. If you find that boring ...