Actor Everett labels Starbucks a 'cancer'

OK. Now I'm convinced that Rob has me on ignore.

Ignore? Nay! I simply replied to another before scrolling down.

Heck, I've adapted your avator as my desktop!

I shall read and digest...

Okay, I've read and digested and subtracted where possible the reporter's spin.

I see NOTHING in that report that changes my position.

I'm in the marketing/BD world. This is Bi'ness...everyday, all day. Vlasic could have opted out but didn't...even if you believe the article.

Sorry to be cruel but...tough titties.
 
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Ignore? Nay! I simply replied to another before scrolling down.

Heck, I've adapted your avator as my desktop!

I shall read and digest...

Okay, I've read and digested and subtracted where possible the reporter's spin.

I see NOTHING in that report that changes my position.

I'm in the marketing/BD world. This is Bi'ness...everyday, all day. Vlasic could have opted out but didn't...even if you believe the article.

Sorry to be cruel but...tough titties.

You flatter me! :D You like my new avatar? I thought I was due for a change.

No. I didn't think that it would change your mind. It just offered info about the Vlasic thing that you asked for. I thought that it was an interesting perspective on Wal-Mart's business practices (and those of their suppliers). And, you're right, Vlasic could have opted out as could a lot of other companies. I'm just wondering how Wal-Mart expects to keep these yearly price reductions going. You can only go so low with your suppliers, right?
 
You flatter me! :D You like my new avatar? I thought I was due for a change.

No. I didn't think that it would change your mind. It just offered info about the Vlasic thing that you asked for. I thought that it was an interesting perspective on Wal-Mart's business practices (and those of their suppliers). And, you're right, Vlasic could have opted out as could a lot of other companies. I'm just wondering how Wal-Mart expects to keep these yearly price reductions going. You can only go so low with your suppliers, right?

Absolutely right. Therein lies the 'in' for walmart competitors.

I'm just saying that I find nothing immoral about their practices. I don't even find them unfair. They're saying..."we've got shelf space and customers. You've got product you have to push. We'll work with you if you do x, y and z.

Vlasic learned a lesson. Others have/are learning that lesson also. Target, meanwhile, is taking up the slack on the really popular, more expensive, products. Vlasic went for the quick dime without realizing the slow leak that dime was plugging.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

10 years and Walmart will be chapter 8 (my just cleaned crystal ball sez so).
 
Maybe you should learn a little about how to recognize a tongue-in-cheek comment.
But it only works if you believe that "Luddite" means anti-technology, the Luddites where not opposed to new technology, many Luddites embraced the latest technology, what they objected to where business practices which often left them starving, and a legal system which used violence to stifle descent.
 
But it only works if you believe that "Luddite" means anti-technology, the Luddites where not opposed to new technology, many Luddites embraced the latest technology, what they objected to where business practices which often left them starving, and a legal system which used violence to stifle descent.

that deserves a thread of its own -- preferably one that could be objectively debated by all.
 
that deserves a thread of its own -- preferably one that could be objectively debated by all.
I actually thing that it is quite relevant to this thread, as the basic position is that Luddites objected to new business practices, which where perfectly legal and in many ways economically necessary, however the Luddites fealt that the social impact of certain business models far outweighed any benefit which the new business models brought.
Claiming that the Luddites where anti-technology is like arguing that those opposed to Starbucks are anti-coffee.
Seriously, we're having the same arguments now as we where 190 years ago, except that the stakes are much lower- no one is going to die from having a starbucks in their street, and the government is about to hang the leaders of anti-starbucks protests, nor is it going to ban political meetings just in case anyone begins to criticize Starbucks.

In conclusion, Claus is a Luddite. :p
 
While I'm not anti-Starbucks, there are a couple of misconceptions, I think, about big chain practices. The big chains aren't just winning on price or quality. There are good reasons to say that they have an "unfair" advantage.

First, it is said that they win in small markets because the people in those small markets like the low prices and/or quality control better than the generally more expensive local stores. I don't think that's entirely true. Suppose Wal-Mart goes in to a small town, where it competes with the local stores that have been in business for generations. There might be a small clothing store, a hardware store, and a pharmacy, but Wal-Mart competes with all of them.

This might be a town where it really is true that the town just isn't big enough for both businesses. When Wal-Mart moves in, suppose that only 1/3 of the customers prefer Wal-Mart to the traditional small town clothing store. What will happen? If market forces were all that were in play, Wal-Mart would lose, because more customers prefer the small town store. However, that isn't what happens.

Instead, what happens is that both stores lose money. Wal-Mart doesn't have enough customers to make a profit. However, neither does the small town store. The difference is that Wal-Mart has a big corporation that can provide the new store lots of financial backing for a few years. The small town store can't do it. Even though most of its customers stay loyal, enough of them leave that the small town store can no longer make a profit. Small town and Wal-Mart both lose money, but Wal-Mart can afford it. Small town goes out of business. Now, Wal-Mart is the only game in town, and starts being profitable.

The OP referred to a different situation, in which people tried to keep Starbucks out. The free marketeers say that if people don't like the coffee, Starbucks would close. However, it isn't that simple. What some people like is often an atmosphere free of the chain stores and the same blandness that affects modern society. If there's a Starbucks-free neighborhood, people will go there just for that reason. When Starbucks moves in, people will buy the coffee, but business at the little record store next door will go down, because some people won't come to the neighborhood to shop anymore. Starbucks ruins the "atmosphere" of every shop in the neighborhood, not just the coffee shops.

There's another, related, problem. Starbucks attracts a certain clientele. It's possible that the rest of the clientele in the neighborhood doesn't like the Starbucks clientele. Once again, as a result, it isn't as much fun for those people to go to the neighborhood anymore, and all the businesses, not just Starbucks, are affected.

I'm not for restrictions on chain stores, but it is naive to think that they are winning just because people like them better than the competition. Their size gives them advantages that go beyond the supply chain.
 
While I'm not anti-Starbucks, there are a couple of misconceptions, I think, about big chain practices. The big chains aren't just winning on price or quality. There are good reasons to say that they have an "unfair" advantage.

First, it is said that they win in small markets because the people in those small markets like the low prices and/or quality control better than the generally more expensive local stores. I don't think that's entirely true. Suppose Wal-Mart goes in to a small town, where it competes with the local stores that have been in business for generations. There might be a small clothing store, a hardware store, and a pharmacy, but Wal-Mart competes with all of them.

This might be a town where it really is true that the town just isn't big enough for both businesses. When Wal-Mart moves in, suppose that only 1/3 of the customers prefer Wal-Mart to the traditional small town clothing store. What will happen? If market forces were all that were in play, Wal-Mart would lose, because more customers prefer the small town store. However, that isn't what happens.

Instead, what happens is that both stores lose money. Wal-Mart doesn't have enough customers to make a profit. However, neither does the small town store. The difference is that Wal-Mart has a big corporation that can provide the new store lots of financial backing for a few years. The small town store can't do it. Even though most of its customers stay loyal, enough of them leave that the small town store can no longer make a profit. Small town and Wal-Mart both lose money, but Wal-Mart can afford it. Small town goes out of business. Now, Wal-Mart is the only game in town, and starts being profitable.

The OP referred to a different situation, in which people tried to keep Starbucks out. The free marketeers say that if people don't like the coffee, Starbucks would close. However, it isn't that simple. What some people like is often an atmosphere free of the chain stores and the same blandness that affects modern society. If there's a Starbucks-free neighborhood, people will go there just for that reason. When Starbucks moves in, people will buy the coffee, but business at the little record store next door will go down, because some people won't come to the neighborhood to shop anymore. Starbucks ruins the "atmosphere" of every shop in the neighborhood, not just the coffee shops.

There's another, related, problem. Starbucks attracts a certain clientele. It's possible that the rest of the clientele in the neighborhood doesn't like the Starbucks clientele. Once again, as a result, it isn't as much fun for those people to go to the neighborhood anymore, and all the businesses, not just Starbucks, are affected.

I'm not for restrictions on chain stores, but it is naive to think that they are winning just because people like them better than the competition. Their size gives them advantages that go beyond the supply chain.

This might be true, but don't ignore the significant advantages that the small stores in you hypothetical town would enjoy over Wal Mart.

For example:

They are typically owner managed and run with very low staff costs (i.e. the owner and family work for lower wages, or vitually no wages, because they own the profits anyway.

The business is run on extremely low (maybe negative) returns on capital. They have sunk capital at historical low rates. By which I mean they bought the store 30 years ago and if the went to buy it now it would cost a very large sum. If they had to operate like Wal MArt, they would caluclate their return on capital (including what their property is worth at current market prices) and probably see that they would make more money by selling up and putting the proceeds in a savings account. Wal Mart by comparison would have shut up shop a long time ago.

So it is not all one way traffic.
 
This is a story about an Italian community whose preferences not anti-Americanism or anti-McDonald'sism put a McDonald's out of business. The citizens decided that they simply liked their local offerings more than fast food. Good for them, I say!

McDonald's Out of Business
 
To late...I already started a thread.

Please chime in or I'll look as stupid as I actually am.

Can't have that.
Done, I'm always happy to chime into threads to make people look more intelligent by comparison. ;)
 
First, I'd like to see the actually references to this...just to satisfy myself that the case as stated is in fact the case. The Walmart issue has become a little political and it helps to know the actual facts.

Second, even as stated, Walmart didn't force anyone into bankruptcy. Vlasic was stupid, and like Forest Gump sez, "Stupid is as stupid does".
The point is that gallon jug was a gimic product for a gimic price, it then turned out to be a big deal, something that neither of them intended. Yes there is a lack of sufficient foresight, and that should always kill all companies?

That walmart may or may not have been making a 'profit' on the deal is completely and utterly 1) beside the point and, 2) subjective.

P.S. They appear to still be in business.

Yes, but they did go through bankruptcy and where able to renegotiate the price of their gallon of pickels with walmart. I never said that they went under I specified bankruptcy.
 
Absolutely right. Therein lies the 'in' for walmart competitors.

I'm just saying that I find nothing immoral about their practices. I don't even find them unfair. They're saying..."we've got shelf space and customers. You've got product you have to push. We'll work with you if you do x, y and z.

They don't work with their suppliers, they know that they are too big not to want to sell and then can threaten them by saying they will not stock their product. If you do enough of your business with them they have you and can make you do what they want or you will go under.

If say you expand to meet the demand of walmart and then they want you to cut their price by 30%, well you have all that investment in production capacity to pay for.

It is not to quite the extent of the anti trust stuff that teddy rosevelt did, but it is able to be seen as related.
Vlasic learned a lesson. Others have/are learning that lesson also. Target, meanwhile, is taking up the slack on the really popular, more expensive, products. Vlasic went for the quick dime without realizing the slow leak that dime was plugging.

Vlasic went for a gimic, not a quick dime. It was not a serious product, it was intended for large picknics and deli's and such. Not to be the bulk of their sales.
What doesn't kill you makes you stronger.

A good reason for cancer and higher oil prices
 
This is a story about an Italian community whose preferences not anti-Americanism or anti-McDonald'sism put a McDonald's out of business. The citizens decided that they simply liked their local offerings more than fast food. Good for them, I say!

McDonald's Out of Business


But macdonalds is a franchise and not the same thing as some of the other businesses there. There is a local owner of the macdonalds. The company as a whole it did not invest its own money in the same way that walmart would.
 
Compare Paris to London.

Paris has numerous small shops with local produce, character, quality etc. It's beautiful to look at, you can get a wide variety of good and produce that you cannot buy elsewhere. They don't allow large chains to take up 50 yards of shop front with bright logos and force them to build in character.

London on the other hand is primarily made up of chain shops. If you can't find a Carphone Warehouse where you stand you only need to walk 100 yards . Chains dominate the market. Small shops are driven out of business by loss leading promotions and overblown property buyups. Variety of produce has dropped and character is lost. I won't bother to go into the effects this has on the community.

Why the difference? Well one reason is that Paris city officials simply do not allow it to happen. They limit chain shops. The actually said that they didn't want it turning into London. I think they've done a good job for their people in this respect. I hate the way the UK is going.
 
But macdonalds is a franchise and not the same thing as some of the other businesses there. There is a local owner of the macdonalds. The company as a whole it did not invest its own money in the same way that walmart would.
I was applying this more to Starbucks (that is a franchise, isn't it?), although I realize that much of the discussion of late has centered about Wal-Mart. You're right. It wouldn't apply as well to the Wal-Marts of the world.
 
This is a story about an Italian community whose preferences not anti-Americanism or anti-McDonald'sism put a McDonald's out of business. The citizens decided that they simply liked their local offerings more than fast food. Good for them, I say!

McDonald's Out of Business
Just out of curiousity, do we say "Good for them" to people in towns where a McDonald's comes and succeeds and puts local offerings out of business?
 
Just out of curiousity, do we say "Good for them" to people in towns where a McDonald's comes and succeeds and puts local offerings out of business?

The thing is that mcdonalds being a franchise is also a local business. It is owned by a local.
 
Just out of curiousity, do we say "Good for them" to people in towns where a McDonald's comes and succeeds and puts local offerings out of business?
I don't. I submitted that link because it was a story of a community that didn't boycott McDonald's. McDonald's simply went out of business because the community preferred its local cuisine. The reason why I celebrate that is because I enjoy going to other places and experiencing the flavors and foods unique to that region. Enjoying its food is one of many ways to celebrate a community's cultural heritage. If McDonald's came in and succeeded in putting locals out of business, particularly in small towns like this one, that would be lost. I'm glad that that did not happen in this case.
 

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