ACLU defends anti-Islam shirts

[Checkmite]

I am sure the court might elucidate that.

Is saying "someone is of the devil" provcative speech (which is not allowed in schools but is in society) or is it diecrininatory language which is allowed except for where sanctioned?

And what is the intent and cultural baggae of 'of the devil'. That will be key as well.

Now it also just depends on the merits of the case as well.

It seems to me that for something to be "discriminatory", the rights of the person being discriminated against must be postively affected in some way. A shirt that says "Islam is of the devil" is not denying Muslim students a drink of water, access to restroom facilities, books, or the like, that non-Muslim students retain access to. In fact it doesn't really say anything at all about treating Muslims differently or denying Muslims their civil rights (or any other kind of right, save perhaps the "right" to get into the Christian version of heaven, which isn't a legally-protected right).

Further, if the fact that Islam, as a non-Christian religion, is of Satan actually is indeed a tenet of biblical literalist Christianity (which I believe it is), I don't think the shirt can even be called provocative or inflammatory speech - at least not in the sense that a person can be compelled by a court not to wear it, because freedom of religion comes with the right to describe and express religious beliefs, even those others find repugnant (e.g. Westboro), so long as those beliefs don't materially affect the rights of others. A Muslim student might be made to feel bad about himself or his religion when he sees someone wearing such a shirt; but the Constitution overrules hurt feelings so far as I know.

 

[Arus808]

Make no doubt about it: the more draconian the rules, the more limiting to free expression, the safer the environment.
But... safe for what? Clothing is part of free expression. And, as other have made clear, it's a balancing act between maintaining order and allowing freedom. Personally I feel that uniforms are far too destructive of individual expression.

So what? What about after schooL? weekends? during non-school related events. Or school related events that do not have such restrictions.

All of these times, these kids can have all the FREE expression they want.

oh and of course, one can express their beliefs through other means; art, writing, debate, joining school clubs, etc.

I believe that anyone who uses the "uniforms" are restrictive to individual expression reasoning has never set foot in a private school or known anyone who has.

 

[Dancing David]

It seems to me that for something to be "discriminatory", the rights of the person being discriminated against must be postively affected in some way. A shirt that says "Islam is of the devil" is not denying Muslim students a drink of water, access to restroom facilities, books, or the like, that non-Muslim students retain access to. In fact it doesn't really say anything at all about treating Muslims differently or denying Muslims their civil rights (or any other kind of right, save perhaps the "right" to get into the Christian version of heaven, which isn't a legally-protected right).

Hostile enviroments are part of discrimination, at least in court.

Further, if the fact that Islam, as a non-Christian religion, is of Satan actually is indeed a tenet of biblical literalist Christianity (which I believe it is), I don't think the shirt can even be called provocative or inflammatory speech - at least not in the sense that a person can be compelled by a court not to wear it, because freedom of religion comes with the right to describe and express religious beliefs, even those others find repugnant (e.g. Westboro), so long as those beliefs don't materially affect the rights of others.

Nope, speech can be harmful as well, schools are different

A Muslim student might be made to feel bad about himself or his religion when he sees someone wearing such a shirt; but the Constitution overrules hurt feelings so far as I know.

Thanks for responding to the typo laden post!


There is discrimination and courts consider it to be of many types including language, and we are specifically talking about schools here, public schools. What is acceptable on the street is often not allowed in a school, government institution or work place.

So if the students wore shirts that said "Polacks are stupid", "Black are thiefs" and "Girls are sluts", do you think that would be acceptable in a public school ?

the mere fact that someone has a religous belief does not allow people free reign to express it as well.

In schools provocative speech is not allowed, what is allowed on teh street or at home is different at school. Most schools have rule about language that is meant to hurt, demean or degrade another and it does not matter if it is a religous belief.

It would be discriminatory to wear a shirt that said "Christians are stupid" and it would be considered inflamatory and provocative, my belief about the ignorance of religous people would be in the same actegory of 'protected speech'. You can not just inflamatory things at school and say "It is my religous belief".

 

[rightbrain]

Hostile enviroments are part of discrimination, at least in court....

So if the students wore shirts that said "Polacks are stupid", "Black are thiefs" and "Girls are sluts", do you think that would be acceptable in a public school ?

the mere fact that someone has a religous belief does not allow people free reign to express it as well...

Precisely. Students have the right to attend school in a non-hostile environment. Even if the school does not have any Muslim students (I'd be surprised if they do), as a public school it has to be open to accepting all students, including Muslims.

Plenty of schools, including my children's high school, have dress codes that restrict T-shirts with foul language or other "disruptive" sayings. Most have withstood any number of court challenges.

As a former journalist, I'm quite liberal on First Amendment issues, but free speech rights are not absolute. For one thing, it could be argued that by allowing it, the school, a publicly funded entity, is tacitly favoring a particular religion and discouraging the freedom to practice another (Islam).

 

[thaiboxerken]

Has Fox New's pundits commented on this yet?

 

[Checkmite]

So if the students wore shirts that said "Polacks are stupid", "Black are thiefs" and "Girls are sluts", do you think that would be acceptable in a public school ?

No, but those phrases directly attack groups of people. The phrase "Islam is of the devil" is an expression of an opinion about an idea (Islam), not a group of people. A shirt saying "Christians are stupid" or "kill all communists" or "Hang the Traitors!" is entirely different from a shirt saying "The Bible is wrong", or "Down with Communism", or "God Bless America".

 

[Dancing David]

And I am fairly certain that a "The bible is stupid" shirt would be considered provocative and not allowed as well. "Christianity is evil" would not be tolerated as well. I think that the fine point you are trying to draw is over broad, Islam is the religion, and therefore likely to be a suspect class. "Democrats are of the devil" again would likely considered to be provocative.

Schools have a great many strictures upon free speech.

Why would this matter more than wearing a hoodie? my son has never been in a gang, yet he was forbidden to wear a hoodie in middle school last year.

So too, you can and will be suspended in this distrct for shaving notches in your eyebrows.