Achau Nguyen Challenges! (again)

Dan O. said:
I've also excluded electronics

I did not say that there could not be electronics involved.
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Your post is not consistent. If you have excluded electronics then electronics cannot be involved. That's what excluded means. Bear in mind the JREF are not stupid. If they make sure there are no electronic devices available to transmit anything that doesn't just mean they make sure the applicant doesn't have any, they will make sure there are none available at all.
 
A hypothetical solution won't help if it is not used in practice. The only time JREF has talked about using a Faraday cage was when electronics provided by the applicant were part of the test. Instead, JREF has relied on searching the applicants for hidden electronics and perhaps scanning for a transmission using a field strength meter.

Since all we've seen so far are preliminary tests, perhaps JREF would pull all the stops and use a Faraday cage if an applicant progressed to the final test.

And no, I haven't been inconsistent. I have excluded electronics being available to the applicants inside the testing facility. JREF does not test for (and perhaps can not test for) the existence of electronics outside the testing facility.
 
Dan O. said:
A hypothetical solution won't help if it is not used in practice. The only time JREF has talked about using a Faraday cage was when electronics provided by the applicant were part of the test. Instead, JREF has relied on searching the applicants for hidden electronics and perhaps scanning for a transmission using a field strength meter.

Since all we've seen so far are preliminary tests, perhaps JREF would pull all the stops and use a Faraday cage if an applicant progressed to the final test.

And no, I haven't been inconsistent. I have excluded electronics being available to the applicants inside the testing facility. JREF does not test for (and perhaps can not test for) the existence of electronics outside the testing facility.
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You still have not told us how one could cheat using "electromagnetic waves as the carrier".
 
I've told you everything you should need to know. Since it's presumably not possible for a human body to generate electromagnetic waves that are detectable at any reasonable distance (not counting bioluminescence), the carrier wave must be generated outside the testing facility and modulated by the applicant inside the facility. A single diode junction in an antenna woven into the senders clothing would work but that would not meet a strict interpretation of "no electronics". A concealed corner reflector that can be physically deformed or oriented to modulate the reflected carrier would also work.
 
Dan O. said:
I've told you everything you should need to know. Since it's presumably not possible for a human body to generate electromagnetic waves that are detectable at any reasonable distance (not counting bioluminescence), the carrier wave must be generated outside the testing facility and modulated by the applicant inside the facility. A single diode junction in an antenna woven into the senders clothing would work but that would not meet a strict interpretation of "no electronics". A concealed corner reflector that can be physically deformed or oriented to modulate the reflected carrier would also work.
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Mmmm. No.

I assume you mean that an outside transmitter could flood the test area (or better still, the part of the area containing the sender) in modulated radio waves, and the sender could signal by reflecting waves to the receiver who would have a concealed crystal receiver to pick them up.

First of all, this would certainly involve concealed electronics. It would also be easy to detect. And it would be very difficult to do in practice, because you would have to be working a reflector in a very precise way.

Hans
 
MRC_Hans said:
Mmmm. No.

I assume you mean that an outside transmitter could flood the test area (or better still, the part of the area containing the sender) in modulated radio waves, and the sender could signal by reflecting waves to the receiver who would have a concealed crystal receiver to pick them up.

First of all, this would certainly involve concealed electronics. It would also be easy to detect. And it would be very difficult to do in practice, because you would have to be working a reflector in a very precise way.

Hans
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It would also only explain how the sender could generate a signal. It says nothing about how the reciever would actually recieve anything.
 
No Hans, The carrier provides the energy which is modulated by the sender using passive means and picked up again on the outside using a sensitive receiver. The carrier could even be spread spectrum which would make it more difficult to detect. This isn't something I just invented. It's been in use in the spy trade since the 50's.

The receiver uses something completely different. If you read the report on Nguyen's test you could see how the signal could get in. The trick is how only the receiver would see it and not the other observers or cameras.
 
Haven't you missed the point that if someone is transmitting from outside the test rooms, they won't know what to transmit anyway?
 
I believe that Dan O. is essentially talking about someone outside X-raying the room with the sender (or doing a practical equivalent thereof) while the sender signals the word by reconfiguring his body or some hidden items according to some code. (I guess he could also encode the word into breathing and someone outside could listen through the wall with a really sensitive device.)

The outside party would then transmit the word to the receiver, for example by sending powerful microwave impulses at him, or by plain old infra-red radiation through the window, or by some other variation thereof. (I guess they could also encode the word into artificial street noise that could presumably be heard through the window.)

While theoretically all of this is possible, I believe it is quite irrelevant. There has been no sign of this gentleman attempting to cheat and it's pretty much pointless to speculate about possible mechanism of an event that never occurred. I also believe there are simpler, more cost-effective, and more likely ways to cheat than using complicated equipment outside the building, and I trust JREF to take appropriate measures to prevent those in the first place.
 
I still don't believe that any method within that would allow a form of communication of words on a list. They would have to be spelled out and would be open to being caught quite easily as each letter would need to be quite specific. Doing it all in 60 seconds isn't a likely offer, either.

Not only that, the type of machinery and support required just to fool an initial test would be a pretty costly exercise in futility.

Personally, if someone was prepared to spend the time and resources to cheat in this fashion, they'd deserve a mio.
 
And just a quick note about Achau's actual challenge for a change. (I meant to post this a few days ago, but I've been otherwise preoccupied!)

I've exchanged more e mails with Achau and he is aware of this thread, but hasn't posted in it as he doesn't want to discuss anything, he just wants to take the test, so has no input for us.

Can't say as I blame him and I'll keep posting all details that come to hand. I really can't help but admire his attitude - "I can do this...." and he's about to go and attempt to prove it.

Either way it turns out, I hope he'll come and discuss the situation after the test. Even if he fails, I'd certainly be interested in finding out why he thought he'd succeed. If he passes, of course, I want to be among the first to congratulate him.
 
Of course if he passes then he would be the first EVER to pass a preliminary test. Is there any reason for any person to think that he can pass the test when no-one else has done so?

I would expect several self tests to have already been done.
 
andyandy said:
yes, that was a constraint TA suggested to be added....with 1000 nouns specified for the pool.....

if it were out of the pool of all nouns in the English language, well....we'd probably run out of zeroes :D

let's see....

just confining ourselves to the OED words, this site suggests there would be around 110,000 nouns to choose from....

so

[latex]p(18 \ge n) = {20\choose18}.{\frac{1}{110,000}}^{18}.{\frac{109,999}{110,000}}^2 + {20\choose 19}.{\frac{1}{110,000}}^{19}.{\frac{109,999}{110,000}} + {20\choose 20}.{\frac{1}{110,000}}^{20} [/latex]

which gives approx
3.4x10-89
a truly ridiculously small number, given that 1089 far exceeds estimates for the number of atoms in the known universe...:)
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Not far removed from one chance in googol.
 
The Atheist said:
I still don't believe that any method within that would allow a form of communication of words on a list. They would have to be spelled out and would be open to being caught quite easily as each letter would need to be quite specific. Doing it all in 60 seconds isn't a likely offer, either.

Not only that, the type of machinery and support required just to fool an initial test would be a pretty costly exercise in futility.

Personally, if someone was prepared to spend the time and resources to cheat in this fashion, they'd deserve a mio.
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In the right conditions the equipment is simple and readily available. If there are multiple near by radio stations you could use their radiated power as the carrier. A simple diode and wire antenna woven into a garment would form an inter-mod mixer that can be switched by connecting the two ends of the antenna. A general coverage receiver would easily pick up the mixed signal. Even a Novice would be able to send and receive code at 5 words per minute. 60 seconds per word is not even a challenge.

I'm sure JREF would take extra necessary precautions for the final test such as using a shielded room and scanning for bugs.
 
Dan O. said:
In the right conditions the equipment is simple and readily available. If there are multiple near by radio stations you could use their radiated power as the carrier.
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(bolding mine)


Yeah, along with all the "coulds" and "mights" in there, it just seems pretty damned unlikely. What could possibly be the point? To make it as far as a challenge? To what end?

Even if someone made it to a challenge on the back of cheating, they wouldn't be able to replicate it in the challenge itself, so I think you're really just farting in the wind, so to speak.
 
The point was to bring up the possibilities so that JREF won't be taken by a clever con. You obviously still don't believe it can be done so you wouldn't know how to take the necessary precautions to prevent it.

If a psychic were to pass the preliminary test they would probably be too busy making their own millions to bother with the final test.
 
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