Acceptance of Gender Diversity

[Hercules56]

I only believe in two genders: male and female.

However, I do recognize there are many folks who for emotional & bio-chemical reasons feel their body does not fit the gender of their mind.

And I don't believe we should persecute or mistreat such people.

 

[d4m10n]

Yes but I don't know where you're going with that.

I am attempting to remedy the ambiguity in the survey question itself by settling on a specific meaning for gender among the many available to us.

See the enumerated list in post #72 for more.

 

[arthwollipot]

Hmm were the viking warrior women viewed as women or third gendered? Given that they got pretty much removed from history and found through archaeology it is an interesting question.

No, they were women. They were referred to as such in the sagas and in contemporary accounts. Viking women became warriors to defend their homesteads while their husbands went away on raiding trips. The only women who wouldn't take up a sword or an axe to defend themselves were the unmarried or slaves.

 

[Roboramma]

Transwomen are biological males, and if that is transphobia then reality is transphobia.

Your declaration does not make it so. The very point of contention is whether transwomen are women.

Eta: sorry, that's the other thread. So instead I'll say "the assumption that transwomen are not women is not proven."

Wherever you fall on the debate over terminology, when she said biological males, she was clearly talking about their biological sex, and it really is clear that yes, trans women are biologically male.

To say that they are members of the female gender is a separate issue.

 

[d4m10n]

And penguins have only been having gay sex for a few years. No naturalist noted it 100 years ago so it did not exist.

I sense that you may have missed my point, so I'll try to be crystal clear.

When Australian survey respondents were asked to apply gender to human beings, they may have had in mind a set of ideas about gender and human sexuality which began to be developed in 1955. Before that time, gender was typically something linguists talked about, psychologists not so much.

What idea of gender pops into your head when you are asked whether there are more than two?

 

[The Norseman]

How many factual genders have we observed?

Sorry, I tend to get lost in these threads because I read from my tablet and read and post from my computer. And sometimes (rarely) post from my tablet.

Wanted to get back to this only to say that the video that arth posted (around post #16) says it better than I ever could, so to find that answer would be to watch that video.

 

[d4m10n]

Wanted to get back to this only to say that the video that arth posted (around post #16) says it better than I ever could, so to find that answer would be to watch that video.

Once again, sex ≠ gender.

There is not a distinct form of gender expression or a set of social roles for any given intersex condition. People with DSDs have not been shown to be more likely to identify as non-binary than anyone else.

 

[The Norseman]

Once again, sex ≠ gender.

There is not a distinct form of gender expression or a set of social roles for any given intersex condition. People with DSDs have not been shown to be more likely to identify as non-binary than anyone else.

"Once again"? How about you quoting me saying or implying anything like sex = gender first before correcting me?

 

[d4m10n]

"Once again"? How about you quoting me saying or implying anything like sex = gender first before correcting me?

You cited to a video about sex diversity in answer to a question about gender diversity.

 

[Thor 2]

"Once again"? How about you quoting me saying or implying anything like sex = gender first before correcting me?

You cited to a video about sex diversity in answer to a question about gender diversity.

To most people sex does equal gender although there is a little vagueness.

Whether it does or not precisely coincide is not of that much interest to me. What I find interesting is the dismissal by the far right and the religious of there being any variation other than two distinct categories.

I discussed this at some length with my religious nephew who clearly identified sex with gender, and steadfastly refused to admit there could be anything but someone who is male or female. The incidence of ambiguous genitals and other than XX or XY chromosomes were just dismissed as fiction.

 

[d4m10n]

To most people sex does equal gender although there is a little vagueness.

Which is why this particular survey question is fairly ****, without further elaboration.

"Sex" refers fairly unequivocally to the distribution of physical characteristics we associate with males and females, "gender" has a much broader set of possible meanings, to include gender identity and gender expression. If people in Australia think of sex and gender as synonymous, we can draw very few conclusions as to what these survey results should be taken to mean. Some respondents may have been affirming a sexual binary, some may have been affirming a gender binary, some may have been saying there are only two socially legitimate ways of expressing one's gender identity.

 

[8enotto]

For those who missed binary sex identity features at birth a 3rd category must exist.

Respected as any other person would be and the same opportunity in life. As I read here it rarely actually works put that way but that is human nature.

 

[Thor 2]

Which is why this particular survey question is fairly ****, without further elaboration.

Yes well you have been banging that drum for some time now.

Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Can we acknowledge that those who can't admit to this, tend to be on the right or far right* and or religiously inclined?



* The One Nation party foundered by Pauline ("please explain") Hansen is the best example in Australia. A low IQ is a prerequisite to joining the party.

 

[cullennz]

Yes well you have been banging that drum for some time now.

Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Can we acknowledge that those who can't admit to this, tend to be on the right or far right* and or religiously inclined?



* The One Nation party foundered by Pauline ("please explain") Hansen is the best example in Australia. A low IQ is a prerequisite to joining the party.

Of course there are, but I can't see how this remotely relates to d4m10n's or my point that if there are people confusing gender and biological sex in a survey the results are worthless.

 

[p0lka]

To most people sex does equal gender although there is a little vagueness. Whether it does or not precisely coincide is not of that much interest to me. What I find interesting is the dismissal by the far right and the religious of there being any variation other than two distinct categories.

I discussed this at some length with my religious nephew who clearly identified sex with gender, and steadfastly refused to admit there could be anything but someone who is male or female. The incidence of ambiguous genitals and other than XX or XY chromosomes were just dismissed as fiction.

re: hltd
I think that's where the problem lies,
we have sex and gender,
sex is trivially easy to demonstrate as it's biological,
gender is a bit more fuzzy as it's phsychological.

 

[Robin]

I discussed this at some length with my religious nephew who clearly identified sex with gender, and steadfastly refused to admit there could be anything but someone who is male or female. The incidence of ambiguous genitals and other than XX or XY chromosomes were just dismissed as fiction.

I thought it was interesting that Lyle Shelton, one of the loudest religious voices claiming gender=biological sex became hugely offended when a school taught that God has no gender and might just as well be called 'She'. Lyle called it PC gone mad and said that God is definitely a 'He'.. So presumably that means he thinks God is biologically male.

 

[d4m10n]

Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Of course, but if you're going to say things like this:

How can people disagree with a fact that can be observed and has been reported on so much in recent times?

...then you should probably be able to say exactly which widely reported fact the survey respondents missed. Given the massive ambiguity in the survey, I don't feel like it provides us any real insight on any well-specified question about gender.

 

[Tsukasa Buddha]

Can we perhaps agree that some people are reluctant to admit to any kind of diversity in either?

Can we acknowledge that those who can't admit to this, tend to be on the right or far right* and or religiously inclined?

It is hard to "admit" to anything when even supporters can't agree what the terms even mean. For example, the video defined sex and gender separately, but you just said most people seeing them as equivalent.

I find this attitude not to be helpful. It is like both sides are saying "I accept science, you just need to Google it, and you are willfully dumb for not understanding it already." I've seen lots of debates, read lots of articles, heard from lots of people, and it is still not very coherent. When it comes to "gender", no one really agrees on what people are talking about.

 

[Robin]

This is an obvious equivocation; you're not invoking "man" in the same sense Kipling does.

Kipling himself uses the word in more than one way in the poem.

Speaking for myself I can't think of any sense of 'man' in which I 'feel' as though I am a man or any sense of 'woman' that I 'feel' as though I am.a woman.

 

[Robin]

Double post