Abuse Of Power

[Dorian Gray]

BeAChooser, you are a troll, and your arguments are based on relationships that are tenuous at best, on evidence that is biased and misinterpreted by you, and on so-called facts that are scrubbed of anything that might poke holes in your claims. I think you know this, and that you only come here and say these things so that people will pay attention to you, because after all, negative attention is better than no attention at all. I feel sorry for you, and I hope that one day you find the strength to get the help that you so desperately need.

Or, like, read a effing newspaper.

Please keep in mind the Membership Agreement and do not use personal attacks.

Replying to this modbox in thread will be off topic  Posted By: Lisa Simpson

 

[daredelvis]

Or, like, read a effing newspaper.

Shouldn't that be, "Or, like, read an effing newspaper."?

All newspapers but the Washington Times and WND lie!

Daredelvis

 

[Upchurch]

Shouldn't that be, "Or, like, read an effing newspaper."?

Not after you compile the "effing" code, it shouldn't.

 

[daredelvis]

Not after you compile the "effing" code, it shouldn't.

Oh, got it!

Daredelvis

 

[Dancing David]

Private Health Insurance vs. Universal health care

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

There's a real problem with trying to persuade people that this is an abuse of power.

While your explanation was excellent, the simple reason is: because it's not an abuse of power. That's why it's difficult to convince people that it is.

 

[BeAChooser]

This one is a simple favor/oppose poll ... snip ... you can't do that legitimately.

Joe, Joe, Joe. Why are you trying to change the playing field? Your post that I responded to, by citing five polls which ALL indicate that the public does not want THIS bill based and citing one poll which indicates the public particularly doesn't want the bill passed in the manner democrats are apparently going to try to pass it, stated:

I disapprove of the bill, but given the politics of our nation, I think it should be passed. That's the sort of position many of these polls don't separate out.

You weren't talking about passing a different, revised bill. You were suggesting that you think the public would support passing the bill as it currently stands if the polls were worded differently. That is all I responded to and what I posted clearly shows you are wrong.

 

[BeAChooser]

There's a real problem with trying to persuade people that this is an abuse of power.

Go argue with Senator Byrd.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

Joe, Joe, Joe. Why are you trying to change the playing field? Your post that I responded to, by citing five polls which ALL indicate that the public does not want THIS bill based and citing one poll which indicates the public particularly doesn't want the bill passed in the manner democrats are apparently going to try to pass it, stated:



You weren't talking about passing a different, revised bill. You were suggesting that you think the public would support passing the bill as it currently stands if the polls were worded differently. That is all I responded to and what I posted clearly shows you are wrong.

My point is and has been that the polls you cite do not separate out why people oppose a specific bill. Many of us don't like the Senate bill, for example, because it doesn't have a public option. Many of us would like to see one version or another of these bills passed, but view them all as extremely compromised health insurance reform rather than the kind of comprehensive healthcare reform we'd prefer.

And none of the polls you posted separate out the reasons why people favor or oppose a given bill.

ETA: And I'd remind you that you introduced these polls as evidence that reconciliation is an abuse of power. The polls do not say that a majority of Americans think reconciliation is an abuse of power. Even if they did. . well see below--it's the bandwagon fallacy yet again.

See also my specific comments to each of the polls you cite. ETA: And this is a problem I noted on the thread you've abandoned as well, where you claim a poll leads to a conclusion that it most certainly does not. I can also point out another similarity: even if these polls say what you claim they're saying, it does nothing to argue that reconciliation is an abuse of power. That again is the argumentum ad populum fallacy.

You keep trying to get more out of these polls than is there.

And again, the majority of voters polled want Congress to keep trying. (This presumably includes efforts to reach a compromise between the bills that have already passed each house through the process of reconciliation.)

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

That is all I responded to and what I posted clearly shows you are wrong.

I just want to underscore this point, because it shows something you keep doing.

You started a thread claiming that something about the process Democrats in Congress are using to attempt to pass health insurance reform legislation is an abuse of power.

You cited polls trying to argue that most Americans think this is an abuse of power because a majority oppose passing a specific bill.

Several people pointed out that a poll that asks whether you favor or oppose a specific poll does not show an accurate picture of the overall desire of Americans for the passage of healthcare reform. (It lumps those who think the bill goes too far with those who think it doesn't go far enough and even with those who don't like the irrelevant abortion language.)

That is, you're trying to use these polls to make some broad point that supports your assertion that the Democrats are somehow abusing their power.

And now you claim the only point you're trying to make is some extremely narrow point related to how I worded a response.

Even if the poll did show that a majority of Americans don't want Congress to pass some version of this legislation, and even if it did show that a majority of Americans think the Democrats are abusing their power (neither of which is true), it would still be a bad argument since an opinion poll can't prove your point (that Congress is abusing their power).

 

[BeAChooser]

All newspapers but the Washington Times and WND lie!

Speaking of liars, during the campaign Obama criticized "fifty plus one" politics. In fact, he said people should vote for him over Hillary because she would be a "50-plus-one president" rather than a consensus builder. Oh how times change. And then (http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/fifty-plus-one-86526852.html), "At the Sept. 25, 2007, "Change to Win" convention, Mr. Obama called health insurance reform "an area where we're going to have to have a 60 percent majority in the Senate and the House in order to actually get a bill to my desk. We're going to have to have a majority to get the bill to my desk, that is not just a 50-plus-one majority." Oh how times change. I guess Obama was *hoping* his words wouldn't come back to haunt him.

 

[BeAChooser]

My point is and has been that the polls you cite do not separate out why people oppose a specific bill.

Well you sure expressed that point in an unclear manner. When you said:

I disapprove of the bill, but given the politics of our nation, I think it should be passed. That's the sort of position many of these polls don't separate out.

I naturally assumed the "position" you were talking about was passing the current bill (the one you disapprove of) … not some other revised health care bill. I wasn't trying to separate out "why people oppose a specific bill", an issue you didn't even mention above. If that's what you were talking about, perhaps you should have just said it a little clearer.

 

[BeAChooser]

I just want to underscore this point, because it shows something you keep doing.

You started a thread claiming that something about the process Democrats in Congress are using to attempt to pass health insurance reform legislation is an abuse of power.

You cited polls trying to argue that most Americans think this is an abuse of power because a majority oppose passing a specific bill.

I just want to underscore something you keep doing on thread after thread. Misrepresenting what I post.

Yes, the thread OP does claim that the process democrats are using to try and pass the current bill is an abuse of power. It also claims that polls consistently show that Americans are against passing the current bill. It even cites a statement by an esteemed democrat that it would be an abuse of power for democrats to use the method they are trying inorder to pass a health care bill.

But I clearly did NOT cite polls to argue that "most Americans think this is an abuse of power because a majority oppose passing a specific bill." That is an utter and quite obvious falsehood, Joe. I cited the polls ONLY to dispute what I logically interpreted in one of your posts to be a claim that if the right question were asked most people would be in favor of passing the current bill despite disapproving of it as you claim you do.

Stop misrepresenting my OPs and posts. Or I'll start ignoring you completely because frankly I think most intelligent readers can see that is precisely what you've been doing lately.

 

[A'isha]

But I clearly did NOT cite polls to argue that "most Americans think this is an abuse of power because a majority oppose passing a specific bill."

Hmm....

In all cases those polled were against passing the bill as is. And when specifically asked if democrats should do what they are now trying to do, they overwhelmingly said no. I guess they agree with Senator Byrd that what democrats are now trying to do is an Abuse Of Power.

That sure looks an awful lot like you're citing polls to argue that the American people think this is an abuse of power because they were against passing the bill, BAC.

 

[Dancing David]

Speaking of liars, during the campaign Obama criticized "fifty plus one" politics. In fact, he said people should vote for him over Hillary because she would be a "50-plus-one president" rather than a consensus builder. Oh how times change. And then (http://www.lvrj.com/opinion/fifty-plus-one-86526852.html), "At the Sept. 25, 2007, "Change to Win" convention, Mr. Obama called health insurance reform "an area where we're going to have to have a 60 percent majority in the Senate and the House in order to actually get a bill to my desk. We're going to have to have a majority to get the bill to my desk, that is not just a 50-plus-one majority." Oh how times change. I guess Obama was *hoping* his words wouldn't come back to haunt him.

Hard to build a concensus when the other side won't negotiate.

 

[Dancing David]

Well you sure expressed that point in an unclear manner. When you said:



I naturally assumed the "position" you were talking about was passing the current bill (the one you disapprove of) … not some other revised health care bill. I wasn't trying to separate out "why people oppose a specific bill", an issue you didn't even mention above. If that's what you were talking about, perhaps you should have just said it a little clearer.

Except he said it VERY clearly right here, but of course the fact that he posted that first means you did not read it!
They don't separate people who disapprove of the Senate plan, for example, because they want a public option from those who disapprove of it on broader grounds.

 

[JoeTheJuggler]

I just want to underscore something you keep doing on thread after thread. Misrepresenting what I post.

Wrong.

You introduced the polls in order to support your claim that Democrats are somehow abusing power. Your claim that your only point in citing polls is to refute an extremely narrow point (in response to my post) is a falsehood.

I have not mischaracterized your position. You're just being evasive. . .again.

Yes, the thread OP does claim that the process democrats are using to try and pass the current bill is an abuse of power. It also claims that polls consistently show that Americans are against passing the current bill.

Yes, and several of us have pointed out that the polls do not support your assertion that the Democrats are abusing power.

And further, you did not cite the polls only to respond to the points I have made. You cited them in an attempt to support your assertion about the abuse of power.

I cited the polls ONLY to dispute what I logically interpreted in one of your posts to be a claim that if the right question were asked most people would be in favor of passing the current bill despite disapproving of it as you claim you do.

Again, this is a falsehood. You cited the polls in an attempt to support your assertion that the Democrats are abusing power. After I (and others) pointed to the logical problems with your argument (it does not follow from the polls that the Democrats are abusing power), you now repeatedly claim that the only reason you cited the polls was to respond to my statement. That's a false statement. I did not raise the subject of polls in this thread.

Stop misrepresenting my OPs and posts.

I have not done so. There is nothing to stop.

Or I'll start ignoring you completely because frankly I think most intelligent readers can see that is precisely what you've been doing lately.

First, you're already ignoring my refutations to your posts. Second, the consensus here--even among most forum conservatives-- is that your positions aren't very reasoned.

 

[BeAChooser]

Hard to build a concensus when the other side won't negotiate.

Of course, that's an absolute lie, David. If anything, it is democrats, during this process, who have shown themselves unwilling to negotiate. This became obvious very early.

http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-brief...havent-met-obama-for-health-talks-since-april

09/09/09

The ball is in President Obama's court to reach out to Republicans if he wants a bipartisan bill on healthcare reform, House GOP Leader John Boehner (Ohio) said Monday morning.

 Boehner told reporters that the president has not invited House GOP leaders to the White House for meetings on healthcare reform since the end of April.

Earlier this year, GOP leaders sent a letter to the president in May stating that they would like to work with the administration to find "common ground" on healthcare reform.

But the administration responded with a tersely worded letter indicating that they had healthcare reform under control.

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/...-meetings-a-shameful-series-of-backroom-deals "Johanns: Healthcare meetings a 'shameful' series of 'backroom deals'"

Republicans offered alternative bill after bill in both houses that democrats simply tabled to prevent from coming to the floors to be discussed. Every single amendment that republicans offered to the democrat bills was voted down by democrats. And over and over democrats limited debate. There was no willingness to negotiate on their part. To suggest there was now is to lie.

And that behavior continued throughout the rest of 2009 and into 2010. In fact, on February 3rd, because of the backlash, Obama finally had to admit (http://www.unionleader.com/article....rticleId=b22be0dc-aaf1-40dc-9cd7-72b5a4afe9b4 ) that the "closed-door meetings on health care with Democratic congressional leaders" without even C-Span coverage were a mistake. Damn right they were, especially when it was learned that all sorts of seamy deals resulted from those meetings to literally buy votes for the bills.

As pointed out by House Minority Leader Boehner and Minority Whip Cantor last month, "'Bipartisanship' is not writing proposals of your own behind closed doors, then unveiling them and demanding Republican support." That not negotiation in any sense of the word. And yet that is what democrats have been demanding.

Republicans showed themselves more than willing to *negotiate* when the WhiteHouse actually did get around to finally inviting *some* to a Health Care Summit. Of course, Obama then hogged most of the time talking instead of listening to them and once the so-called summit was over, went right back to close door meetings with only democrats. And now, he and those democrats are set to shove his Obamacare bill down America's throat using an approach that even Senator Byrd once said would be an "abuse of power".

 

[Meadmaker]

Go argue with Senator Byrd.

He can argue it himself. He has a vote. If it comes to him, he can vote no.

 

[BeAChooser]

Joe, you only misrepresent my statements yet again. So to ignore you go.