Abortion, the big question....

[Pahansiri]

I believe we so often look for a solid black and white in all things. I guess it is the nature of humans. We need to look more deeply at all things, look into them without adding our personal emotions or needs. How many times have we reacted to something to only find there was much more to the story.

The quote I use at the end of my post I think is a great example of that.
"If we could read the secret history of our enemies, we should find in each man's life sorrow and suffering enough to disarm all hostility."...H.W.Longfellow

As to, for me the fetus when it is it life vs when is it human etc needs be irrelevant. I, again for me must seek to give all life from a human to an ant great respect. Would I first defend a human over an ant, of course, But I believe all life all energy is interconnected and interdependent.
For us as Buddhist we are told that no matter how many world systems we could go or how many realms we could almost never find a being that was not at one time our mother or father, sister or brother, lover or friend.
In the 37 practices of a Bodhisattva it says From beginning-less time our mothers have cherished us, if they no suffer what good is our own happiness.

How is it when we see a baby or child we would pick up and love that child, seeking to give it love and comfort. Yet when that child grows and if it differs from us in any way we can hate it, the very same baby yet due to a projected irrelevant difference we can hate it. Then if we could somehow not age and that child became an old cute man, we would again say, oh how cute, I just love him.


Just what I believe

 

[compjan]

only in the imagination

And how would one imagine that happen?

To put it tritely, "make every child a wanted child", or to be a cynical bastard, when only responsible adults are allowed to have sex or bear children.

Okay, to be more constructive:

1) Close to 100% effective birth control, serious sex education including practical birth control education, and a culture that values it use.

2) Pregnancy only desired by women or couples who are actually ready to raise a child and want the child for its own sake, not to fill in some emotional gap in their life.

Unfortunately, I've given up on U.S. culture meeting the above criteria. Anyone know of another free culture in the world that's doesn't have a need for abortion?

CompJan

 

[Galadriel]

Re: only in the imagination

To put it tritely, "make every child a wanted child", or to be a cynical bastard, when only responsible adults are allowed to have sex or bear children.

Okay, to be more constructive:

1) Close to 100% effective birth control, serious sex education including practical birth control education, and a culture that values it use.

2) Pregnancy only desired by women or couples who are actually ready to raise a child and want the child for its own sake, not to fill in some emotional gap in their life.

Unfortunately, I've given up on U.S. culture meeting the above criteria. Anyone know of another free culture in the world that's doesn't have a need for abortion?

Amen, Jan. Add to that that America practically deifies children and mothers. No matter how successful a woman has been in other areas of her life, if she doesn't have children then she is less than a woman. And it has to be her OWN child, so millions of dollars get poured into fertility specialists' pockets every year as millions of brain-washed women clamor to get pregnant.

 

[Bjorn]

Re: only in the imagination

To put it tritely, "make every child a wanted child", or to be a cynical bastard, when only responsible adults are allowed to have sex or bear children.

Okay, to be more constructive:

1) Close to 100% effective birth control, serious sex education including practical birth control education, and a culture that values it use.

2) Pregnancy only desired by women or couples who are actually ready to raise a child and want the child for its own sake, not to fill in some emotional gap in their life.

Unfortunately, I've given up on U.S. culture meeting the above criteria. Anyone know of another free culture in the world that's doesn't have a need for abortion?

CompJan

To repeat my question from my former post:

Would any of the above solve the problems connected to pregnancies following rape, incest or other sexual crimes?

In my opinion, if one allows for abortion at all, it boils down to who is going to have the power to decide.

I think the mother should.

As mentioned before I am not happy with this, but I cannot see any better solution - and most of those I can think about have been tried in one or more countries.

 

[SortingItAllOut]

First off, let's get off the whole "partial-birth abortion" bit. That was something dreamed up by the forced-birthers. What they describe as "partial birth" is something that is done when the fetus is already dead. If you don't believe me, look it up.

Hi Galadriel!

Would you be able to provide a website where these assertions can be backed up? Particularly the notion that the fetus is already dead. I wasn't able to find anything on this and the web is chock full of anti-abortion/pro-life sites that I suspect might not present the whole story.

Secondly, 85% of all abortions are done in the first trimester, with 80% of those being done in the first six weeks.

Again, is there a site that quotes these statistics?

Thirdly, as a former escort at a Planned Parenthood clinic, if I had a dollar for every man who waved a sign and yelled at women going into the clinic that they were baby killers and going to hell, only to show up with his wife, girlfriend or daughter at a later date wanting an abortion for them, I'd have quite a few dollars.

I certainly won't argue with you about folks that lined up outside clinics and badgered individuals going inside. I've seen this kind of thing before and have wondered if the folks yelling at the women going inside really thought they'd be able to persuade anyone by yelling at them. I'll have to take your word about men showing back up later as there probably isn't any scientific data to back this up.

Any links you might be able to pass along would be most helpful.

Have a nice day!

 

[compjan]

Re: Re: only in the imagination

Amen, Jan. Add to that that America practically deifies children and mothers. No matter how successful a woman has been in other areas of her life, if she doesn't have children then she is less than a woman. And it has to be her OWN child, so millions of dollars get poured into fertility specialists' pockets every year as millions of brain-washed women clamor to get pregnant.

Fortunately the deification has been dropping over the years, but I'd agree that its still harder for a childless woman to be widely respected than a mother. And of course the anti-feminist culture still considers career women to be a symbol of the evil 60's counter-culture.

I always cringe when I hear of people spending all that money to conceive, when there are so many ready for adoption. Evidence of the power of emotion over reason I guess. However, women don't need brainwashing for it - the instinct to carry a child can be very powerful.

CompJan

 

[compjan]

Re: Re: only in the imagination

To repeat my question from my former post:

Would any of the above solve the problems connected to pregnancies following rape, incest or other sexual crimes?

In my opinion, if one allows for abortion at all, it boils down to who is going to have the power to decide.

As mentioned before I am not happy with this, but I cannot see any better solution - and most of those I can think about have been tried in one or more countries.

Ack - you had to bring up the tough ones!

No, I can't see any solution to rape or other forced pregnacy problems, no way to eliminate the moral dilemma. My points were aimed at the issue of choice and avoiding the problem by not getting into the situation in the first place. Obviously a forced pregnancy can't be solved that way.

I wish I had more realistic answers, but humans just don't seem amenable to acting rationally. Birth control education sounds great, except that many people oppose it. Hell, I even know a middle-aged man who refuses to use condoms because he didn't grow up using them (before AIDS). He has a mistress. Guess he's confident she won't sleep around or go off the pill.

I think the mother should.

I emphatically agree. I might try to persuade a woman not to abort, but I will never intrude on her right to control her body.

Good night all
CompJan

 

[Ove]

How can people be for abortions but against euthanasia, abortion is forced upon the life to be aborted without its consent, euthanasia is a decision made by the person wishing to be terminated and yet that is illegal. I am for euthenasia & abortion.

I am for Abortion and against "Mercy killing". Why? Abortion is (mostly) performed on something that IMO is not a human being but could develop into one. "Mercy killing" is the deliberate terminaton of a life. You may try to paint it white by calling it euthanasia, than perhaps people can forget what it is but try asking people if they are for executing hoplessly ill people.

Abortion is allways debateable and in an ideal situation should not be nescessary, unfortunately this situation doesn't exist. One of the main problems IMHO is that we have one of the major religions in the world (the Roman Catolic Church) telling people that if they use contraception they will go to hell. This is very stupid behaviour and more so since the church is most widespread in countries where overpopulation is one of the major problems.

It is helping though, i just recently heard(sorry no link) that the abortion rates in the old USSR were dropping very fast. Apparently many women over there used abortion as contraception but this practice is being fast changed now.

On the other hand the problem may well solve itself. I just recently saw a "60 minutes" which dealt with the fact that women are waiting longer to have children and a lot of them are waiting just to long. Apparently a common misunderstanding amongst those women are that you can have children way up in the 40's and one (intelligent well educated businesswoman) even meant she could easily wait untill she was in her 50's before she had children.

The fact is that it is downhill from 30 and when the woman are 40 it is allmost over. Not surprisingly, the doctor who made a campaign trying to inform women about this fact was attacked by feminist groups.

If this continues i suppose there will be a big market for adoption in the next 10 years or so.

 

[susheel]

A little over two years ago, my wife and I had to face a rather tough decision. She was expecting and we were not living under very good circumstances. Existence was literally hand to mouth. We seriously considered abortion as an option. But after almost a week of talking to each other, and sometimes going to hysterics, we finally decided not to. Haven’t regretted it one bit.

Having said this, I would like to say that I have no problems with a woman opting for abortion:

If she feels that her child will not receive proper care.
To terminate an unwanted pregnancy resulting from forced coitus such as rape.
If it is conducted at the most three months into the pregnancy.

Though I do not care much for women who frequently undergo abortions as an alternative to contraception, I believe that what she does with her body is her business.

By the way Ove, I thought euthanasia expressly required that the person suffering the illness should provide consent for the termination of life. I don’t have any problems with euthanasia as long it is specifically requested by the person suffering from illness and is backed by a panel of experts in the field of medicine and psychology (just to make sure that the person is not merely using it to commit suicide).

 

[Ove]

By the way Ove, I thought euthanasia expressly required that the person suffering the illness should provide consent for the termination of life. I don’t have any problems with euthanasia as long it is specifically requested by the person suffering from illness and is backed by a panel of experts in the field of medicine and psychology (just to make sure that the person is not merely using it to commit suicide).

It is, and i am doubtful about this one. What triggers me is that fact that there have been a couple of nasty cases from Holland, the first country to legalize euthanasia. Cases of the type "old-terminally-ill-person-don't-want-to-take-up-space-from-younger-persons-needing-a-hospital-bed". But it is sticky. I am all for extensive pain reducing treatment even to the extent that it (the treatment) is shortening the patients life but i am basically against saying "Well Dr. nn i would like to die on tuesday, will you please put me down".

I realise that the difference is very small but it is significant to me. I feel that some people don't want to go through the process of dying slowly whereas i would stick to life as long as possible, PROVIDED that i was kept painfree. I know from experience that the last couple of months can be very valuable to all in getting your life "sorted out" and people wanting to be "put down" before they get seriously ill are IMHO taking the easy way out. It is a bit like suicide which i also believe is the coward's way of coping with things.

Another aspect of this is that i have heard from many doctors that they would definitely not want to assist. They are trained to save life, not ending it.

 

[mindless]

You would put your pet down if it was going to spend the rest of its life in pain, I dont see how its any different, except that once again your not asking the pet. Euthanasia is at least an opinion of the person wishing to die, shouldn't their opinion be of worth and consideration.

I can see a resemblance with abortion and pet destruction, so long as the thing being destroyed isn't classed on the same level as yourself most people are o.k. with it.

Is it if you don't have the ability to pronounce death on someone then they shouldn't have the ability to ask for death for themselves?

 

[Galadriel]

Hi Galadriel!

Would you be able to provide a website where these assertions can be backed up?

Planned Parenthood

 

[Ove]

You would put your pet down if it was going to spend the rest of its life in pain

Ahemm, i believe my point was : No pain!!

 

[wolfgirl]

I feel that some people don't want to go through the process of dying slowly whereas i would stick to life as long as possible, PROVIDED that i was kept painfree. I know from experience that the last couple of months can be very valuable to all in getting your life "sorted out" and people wanting to be "put down" before they get seriously ill are IMHO taking the easy way out.

And what's wrong with taking the easy way out? Why is suffering to be applauded or encouraged?

The key part of your statement is "I would." YOU would choose to stick to life as long as possible, but why does that make it the only, or even the best choice for others? It should be up to THEM to choose for themselves what is best for THEM in their own particular and unique circumstance. What if they have no loved ones and the continuance of their life only means another six months of dying slowly and alone? What if...who knows? But the choice should be up to each individual, not up to society.

Another aspect of this is that i have heard from many doctors that they would definitely not want to assist. They are trained to save life, not ending it.

On the flip side, there are many many doctors who claim that they have done this on the sly for patients who have requested help in dying. If they know the patient is dying, will only live in pain, and is making a reasonable conscious choice, they will help them in creative ways. For example, I've read of doctors who provide prescription drugs to a patient and tell them, "Don't take x amount of this drug, as that amount would kill you." Nudge, nudge, wink, wink. The patient takes x amount, dies, and the doctor is off the hook. They see this as a continuation of patient care. If there is nothing more you can do for a patient, often the only help you can provide them is this final act of relief from suffering.

 

[Guest]

Reprinted from a portion of an old editorial of mine with my permission:


-------[ partial quote ]---------

I despise this issue.

I'm a computer geek. I like the exactness of the binary world.
1 or 0. Yes or no. T'is or t'aint.

The crux of the abortion question for most people is that fuzzy
nether-region; the non-descript moment when a human-becoming
can be considered a human being. It's a critical moment from
the Libertarian standpoint. After all, human-beings have the
right to life. But it's hard for most of us to recognize
a microscopic mass as a person. It's equally difficult to
deny the humanity of a baby who is 99% gestated.

At the extremes of the issue, we have folks who consider it
cut and dried. Steadfast lifers insist that IUDs are murder
weapons and that rape victims should be forced to bear their
attacker's progeny. Ardent choicers defend the gruesome
dilation and extraction procedure seconds prior to birth.

---------[end of partial quote]--------



I still despise this issue.


-jjg

 

[wolfgirl]

Hence, I come to you fellow forum dwellers seeking your opinions on the topic of abortion and more importantly, why you hold those opinions.

I'm pro-choice but not pro-abortion. It seems a lot of people here hold a similar opinion. The semantics have gotten clouded by the "pro-life" crowd. By using that term, they project the other side as being "anti-life." We should start calling them "anti-choice." (Words do have the power to shape opinion, as they no doubt recognized when coining that term.)

Anyway, enough of that rant. Back to your question. Most peope I know who are pro-choice feel that abortion is a horrible choice for anyone to have to make, but that the choice should be theirs and not someone else's to make. They are the ones who will have to live with the consequence of that choice either way. The people yelling and protesting outside the abortion clinic might go home all self-satisfied if they convinced someone not to have an abortion, with no thought to what life they may have just condemned that person to. Was she 14 years old and scared? Had she been raped? Were her parents going to kick her out of the house? Did she have an illness that a pregnancy might adversely affect? Does her husband beat her? Does she already have six kids and just can't take another one? Nobody knows the factors that go into another person's decision to have an abortion. They know better than anyone what they need to do in THEIR situation, for THEIR life.

Certainly the best option would be a world where abortions weren't necessary, as many have said. But the reality is that that world will never arrive. Education can help A LOT. (I find it ironic that many of the same people who are so rabidly anti-choice are the same people who resist teaching kids about contraception. If I close my eyes and pretend there is no problem, it'll go away.) But however educated people are about contraception, there will always be mistakes. There will always be people who simply don't want a child, but their birth control failed them. There will always be rapes.

I don't go so far as some to say that a woman should be able to have an abortion at any time. You should probably be able to figure out if you want/need an abortion before you're six months pregnant. However, having said that, there are, again, circumstances that might come up later in the pregnancy, usually health-related, that might make a late-term abortion necessary. In those situations, I say it's between the woman and her doctor.

As for partial-birth abortions, I don't know that much about them. From what I know, they are done rarely and only when there are no other good options. From my admittedly limited knowledge, it seems that the pro-lifers have used the procedure to rally support to their side because of its particularly horrible nature. But if it's a medical choice, as I believe it is, it should be left up to the woman's doctor to decide if it's what's best for her. (If, however, it were simply to be used for a woman who decides at the 11th hour that she doesn't want the baby, I think it would be wrong. I doubt there are many doctors who would do it under those circumstances, though.)

These are, of course, my personal opinions and subject, as always, to reconsideration. My bottom line, though, is that it is among the most personal of choices and the consequences are so huge that it should not be up to anyone else to tell anyone what is best for them.

 

[Jade]

Abortion

Hi I am new here, however, whatever compromises we might achieve in our struggle with abortion, it should be clear by now that the debate itself, if we allow ourselves to listen closely to its arguments, perhaps, may shed valuable light on many of the things we believe, and why. But we should not let them obscure the common ground which we all can stand....

 

[Ove]

Wolfgirl : Good points and as i said i am not totally convinced. My gut feeling though is "Pain prevention Yes, Suicide No" but i wont condem anybody for "taking the easy way out".

Abortion must be a matter between the Doctor and the woman and those people assembling in front of abortion clinics and scolding the poor women really pisses me off. Fortunately over here abortion is performed in hospitals, not in special clinics so the situation would be unthinkable here. But then again the minority against abortion is a very very small minority and don't have that much wind in their sails over here at best they can muster a national protestmarch with a couple of hundred participants.

The Danish authorities have been good on clamping down on people abusing their powers to stage protests. A State employed priest was heavily reprimanded when he participated in a demonstration wearing his "uniform". As state employed he was obligated to defend his "Employer"'s wiewpionts and they are pro-abortion. He was off course fully entitled to his private wiewpoints but if he wished to express those he would have to do so in his "civies"

Another horrible idea was a "Memorial Park" for abortions (publically funded off course) where "parents could mourn their unborn children" Yeeecchh!!!! They didn't enjoy much support for that idea fortunately and the project was postponed.

Abortion is a horrible experience (my wife had a spontaneous one) and i don't think many women would do that "for the fun of it" is is a last way out but the opportunity must be there.

 

[Galadriel]

Another horrible idea was a "Memorial Park" for abortions (publically funded off course) where "parents could mourn their unborn children" Yeeecchh!!!! They didn't enjoy much support for that idea fortunately and the project was postponed.

Why do forced-birthers act as if women have guns put to their heads to have abortions? I sincerely doubt the majority mourn their "unborn children." Rather, they're glad they don't have to go through with the pregnancy. No one is forced, which is what drives the forced-birthers crazy ...

 

[Lucifuge Rofocale]

This is an issue where science can end the controversy forever.

The goal is to have only the children we really want to. So we can develop some kind of vaccine or medical procedure (in the man, to compensate women ) that would make him infertile (like a vasectomy). He only could be capable of impregnate a woman after an antidote is taken or a reverse procedure is practiced, and the effect of this reverse procedure would last only a month (but he can do it anytime he wants).

The social thing is that this procedure should be practiced at birth or in the early chilhood as an standard procedure, like vaccination is today (hehe bigfig ).

The only thing that can stop this after the correct vaccine or procedure has been developed is... you guessed it: Religion.