Abortion Referendum

[Vixen]

Actually the statistics I presented mean exactly that! Of course the relative risk of bringing a pregnancy to birth vs aborting it depends on each woman's individual circumstances, but on average abortion will be 25 X safer than childbirth for the average woman. That is how statistics work. That for most women who otherwise would have died in childbirth an abortion would prevent it. And the much greater risk of childbirth is despite these numbers representing the USA and not a very poor third world country. The 25 X higher risk is in the presence of access, at least in theory, to the type of medical care you suggest in your second paragraph.

Frankly the USA could do a lot better in reducing maternal mortality, but even in countries with truly free and even access to medical care abortions are safer than childbirth.

Qué? It would only prevent death in childbirth if all women had an abortion. I bet there is a tiny correlation - if any at all - between the number of women who have abortions (>190K in E&W in 2016) and the ones who would have died otherwise.

 

[Vixen]

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=psalm+23&version=KJV:

The least you could do is check the correctness of your Bible quotes. Loser.

(others have already dealt with the incorrect use of the word schadenfreude).

Sorry? Are you being personal?

 

[Vixen]

The average numbers are still low, according to the Guardian, 8.8 deaths on 100,000 live births, in the UK. That means the probability the mother survives childbirth is 0.999912. The probability to survive three childbirths therefore is 0.99974 (rounded to 5 decimals). I note, again, a failure to do some elementary maths from our supposed accountant.

Driving a car also carries the risk of deadly accident. Yet scores of people daily step in their car to drive to work. And humans are bad at assessing risk. More people are afraid to fly or to use an elevator than to use a car, yet those two other transport modes are much safer.

But that was not what catsmate asked of you. What level of risk, identified during pregnancy, is in your opinion sufficient to make abortion an option? And why do you evade that question with a hyperbole?


Or, to put it in math terms: an electrical nerve impulse requires two (nerve) cells, one sending the impulse and another receiving it. The fertilized egg is only one cell. Another failure at kindergarten math.

The correct analogy would be someone who never steps foot in a vehicle in case they are the tiny statistic that gets killed in a road accident.

 

[Vixen]

Well I'm pretty sure, and bear with me because this gets really technical, they can't aren't going to die in childbirth if they never have to give birth to the child. I'm pretty sure that's how cause and effect works.

You really don't have to be a soothsayer to make that statement.

I eagerly await how amazingly wrongly you're going to take this and what level of absurdism your reply takes.

Your logic is totally absurd. You are advocating no woman should get pregnant - or if they do, should have an abortion - and that will eliminate conpletely the risk of any death from childbirth.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Your logic is totally absurd. You are advocating no woman should get pregnant - or if they do, should have an abortion - and that will eliminate conpletely the risk of any death from childbirth.

Shouldnt it be a woman's choice if she wants to risk dying in childbirth or not? rather than dictated by people who will never have to worry about it?

 

[Vixen]

Shouldnt it be a woman's choice if she wants to risk dying in childbirth or not? rather than dictated by people who will never have to worry about it?

Nobody is taking any rights away. We are considering protection of the unborn child here.

Just because it is not loud and strident - at least not until it is born - doesn't mean it is not sentient.

 

[JoeMorgue]

Your logic is totally absurd. You are advocating no woman should get pregnant - or if they do, should have an abortion - and that will eliminate conpletely the risk of any death from childbirth.

Yep you went as exactly as far off the deep end as I hoped. You did not disappoint.

 

[TheGoldcountry]

Your logic is totally absurd. You are advocating no woman should get pregnant - or if they do, should have an abortion - and that will eliminate conpletely the risk of any death from childbirth.

That is not even REMOTELY close to what he said.

 

[Craig B]

He only wrote the early ones. (Not #1 though AFAIAA.)

What is your evidence for that authorship? I suppose Moses wrote the Torah, and Solomon wrote the Song and Proverbs.

 

[Zivan]

You can have an abortion in England & Wales up to 24 weeks. That is six months.

Are you claiming a six-month foetus is not a sentient being?

I am saying that the psalm you posted does not back up your nonsensical claim that:

It has to be the moment there is a fusion of ovum and spermatozoa to create that spark (electrical nerve impulse) to create a new life.

(Do try to keep up, instead of dragging around more straw......)

 

[ddt]

Sorry? Are you being personal?

Maybe you should check your own post first.

 

[Archie Gemmill Goal]

Nobody is taking any rights away. We are considering protection of the unborn child here.

Just because it is not loud and strident - at least not until it is born - doesn't mean it is not sentient.

Even if it is sentient i would still think the mother should be the one to decide if she wants to take the risk of it killing her.

 

[arthwollipot]

If having a baby is so incredibly life threatening, how come 85% of the population indulge in having children, the average (2.5) suggests people go back for a SECOND and even THIRD time. Yet lived to tell the tale. Fancy that.

Are you seriously trying to claim that because safe and wanted pregnancies occur, unsafe and unwanted pregnancies don't exist? Please think a moment about what you're saying here and tell me if you'd like to reconsider this line of argument.

 

[Craig B]

Nobody is taking any rights away. We are considering protection of the unborn child here.

Just because it is not loud and strident - at least not until it is born - doesn't mean it is not sentient.

Sentience begins at conception? Not even the Church says that.

 

[catsmate]

Your logic is totally absurd. You are advocating no woman should get pregnant - or if they do, should have an abortion - and that will eliminate conpletely the risk of any death from childbirth.

No-one has claimed anything like this; you are, again, making stuff up to support your prejudices.

 

[Giordano]

Qué? It would only prevent death in childbirth if all women had an abortion. I bet there is a tiny correlation - if any at all - between the number of women who have abortions (>190K in E&W in 2016) and the ones who would have died otherwise.

Gee- yet again quoting a post without addressing its contents, but instead twisting it to create a strawman and a distraction? Let me try to bring the discussion back on track.

We were only discussing the relative risks of abortion vs childbirth. I presented the actual statistics and (legal) abortion is much, much safer. No one was stating that every woman who had an abortion would have otherwise died. That was never the issue. But, to explain the statistics simply: 18.5 of every 100,000 pregnant women will die as a result of giving birth. These 18.5/100,000 women would not die if they did not give birth. How to be pregnant and not give birth? Have an abortion. Abortion represents a 0.7/100,000 risk, so if those 18.5/100,000 women have an abortion instead of giving birth, they have reduced their chances of dying by over 25 fold to 0.13/100,000.

THE POINT: Abortions are 25 fold safer than bringing a pregnancy to term. For people who are pregnant and do not wish to have a child an abortion is a safe decision to make. For people who are pregnant and wish to have a child, they are assuming a significantly higher risk to carry the pregnancy to term but if all goes well they will have achieved their goal: a kid. I guess you could say it depends on which choice a person wishes to make, and I am all pro- that!

Small point about the highlighted sentence: contraception is an even better way than abortion to prevent people dying in childbirth. But neither work well if one's goal is having a child.

 

[Giordano]

You can have an abortion in England & Wales up to 24 weeks. That is six months.

Are you claiming a six-month foetus is not a sentient being?

This is a classic anti-choice approach designed to mis-steeer the discussion. Sentient is defined as "able to perceive or feel things" (Oxford dictionary); it does not mean intelligent. In a strict definition of the term a mimosa bush or a Venus fly trap is sentient: they will react to touch! As will, at a much higher level, a moth or a fish or a mouse. And so will a 6-month fetus. Big deal! What most people consider when defining a human being as special, as different from all the other creatures that we are willing to step on, spray against, eat, or keep as pets, is intelligence. So is a 6-month fetus more intelligent than a fly, or a fish, or a mouse? Nope- far less so.

So i am claiming that a 6-month fetus has far less intelligence and far less sophisticated brain function than the rock cod I ate last night. Are you arguing in favor of laws to protect rock cod?

 

[Vixen]

This is a classic anti-choice approach designed to mis-steeer the discussion. Sentient is defined as "able to perceive or feel things" (Oxford dictionary); it does not mean intelligent. In a strict definition of the term a mimosa bush or a Venus fly trap is sentient: they will react to touch! As will, at a much higher level, a moth or a fish or a mouse. And so will a 6-month fetus. Big deal! What most people consider when defining a human being as special, as different from all the other creatures that we are willing to step on, spray against, eat, or keep as pets, is intelligence. So is a 6-month fetus more intelligent than a fly, or a fish, or a mouse? Nope- far less so.

So i am claiming that a 6-month fetus has far less intelligence and far less sophisticated brain function than the rock cod I ate last night. Are you arguing in favor of laws to protect rock cod?

"Anti-choice"? Women have all of the choices. Someone has to stick up for the choices of the unborn. Babies want to live. In any earthquake, it is the hardy baby who will survive for days underneath rubble whilst the tall and strong perish. It is the sheer will to survive that even gets them through nine months.

 

[Darat]

"Anti-choice"? Women have all of the choices. Someone has to stick up for the choices of the unborn. Babies want to live. In any earthquake, it is the hardy baby who will survive for days underneath rubble whilst the tall and strong perish. It is the sheer will to survive that even gets them through nine months.

Magic sparks, will power is there anything you actually know about pregnancy?

 

[Vixen]

Magic sparks, will power is there anything you actually know about pregnancy?

Magic sparks are your invention. OK, so willpower is the wrong word. It should read 'will to live'. Oh, I just noticed, 'willpower' is your word. Tsk, tsk.