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Abortion Referendum

I can't remember where I got it
That's very convenient. With your reputation of botching facts, why don't you make it a discipline to bookmark your sources?
(but it would have been a reputable site).
Asserting facts not in evidence.

However, here are some similar figures:
In 2016 according to Department of Health statistics the total number of abortions on residents of England and Wales was 185,596. This number excludes the 4,810 abortions performed on non-residents in the UK. Therefore the total number of abortions performed in England and Wales was 190,406.
http://abort67.co.uk/facts/uk_abortion_statistics

So now we'll have a long thread about how I was 4K out.
No, you were not 4K out, you were 8K out, and your link also says that, it mentions 190,406 as the total number. So, don't lie.

Furthermore, you changed "England and Wales" to UK. A second lie.

Oh, and that quote is also inaccurate. The 4,810 number refers to women who are not residents of England and Wales. From the Dept of Health statistics cited before:
2.55 In 2016, there were 4,810 abortions to women resident outside England and Wales, compared with 5,190 in 2015. Principally, 68% of non-residents were from the Irish Republic and 15% were from Northern Ireland. (Table 12a and Figure 9)
so at least 15% of those 4,810 are in fact UK residents/

For reference, here's your claim:
The statistics for the UK says there were 182K abortions last year (nearly a quarter of a million!) of which two were of women who had had eight previous abortions.

You can either quickly admit your claim was completely false, or you can dig your hole deeper.
 
Do the maths, ddt. Lets assume the figures for 2017 not yet released are at least the same (although probably more, as austerity kicks in).

Then,

190K + 190K = 380K


This is a massacre.
You're now adding the numbers for two consecutive years and try to pass them off as the number for one year? :boggled:

Keep digging that hole.
 
As an accountant, I can give you any figure you want ;)
When you apply Enron accounting, yeah. You do realize that the Enron scandal reduced the "Big Five" in accountancy to the "Big four" and that Ken Lay only evaded prison by conveniently dying during his trial? :rolleyes:
 
You're now adding the numbers for two consecutive years and try to pass them off as the number for one year? :boggled:

Keep digging that hole.

What? We are only allowed to say how many were aborted in one year, but not the total from 1 Jan 2016 to 31 Dec 2017, a period of two years?


Let's extrapolate. Let's leave out the tourist abortioners and just use the England & Wales one:

185K x 10 (over ten years) = 1.85m


Thats a staggering TWO MILLION.

Over one generation, commonly supposed to consist of twelve years, that's

2,220,000

And in England & Wales alone.

Sure, all these people were really heartbroken.
 
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When you apply Enron accounting, yeah. You do realize that the Enron scandal reduced the "Big Five" in accountancy to the "Big four" and that Ken Lay only evaded prison by conveniently dying during his trial? :rolleyes:

Me and an accountant friend of mine went to see the play 'Enron' at the Tricyle Theatre. I've even got the book.


Unlike those guys (+Worldpay, etc) in the USA, we are trained in ethics.
 
As an accountant, I can give you any figure you want ;)

I withdraw my own version of the old joke about "What do you want it to be" because Vixen posted hers immediately after mine.

I heard it first about lawyers.
 
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There's not much evidence on this board you actually apply that training.

The smiley notwithstanding, that reads like an outright invitation to cooking the books.

Wrong. It is an old joke.

Client to accountant: So, tell me what the figures are.

Accountant: What do you want them to be?
 
Old joke about lawyers:
Guy needs a lawyer, advertises, and a string of applicants line up outside his office. He invites the first in for an interview:
Guy: "How much is 2 plus 2?"
Applicant #1: "4"
Guy kicks the applicant out of his office.

He invites the second one in:
Guy: "How much is 2 plus 2?"
Applicant #2: "I was never very good in math. Um- 3?"
Guy kicks the applicant out of his office.

He invites the third one in:
Guy: "How much is 2 plus 2?"
Applicant #3 looks over his shoulder, walks to the windows and pulls the blinds. Walks back to his chair and asks, "How much do you want it to be?"
He's hired!

You are telling me that accountants have the same scruples as applicant 3. It's not something to be proud of, and I don't think its a general phenomenon- my dad was a very honest, part-time accountant. But in any case I suspect that dishonest accountants are better at hiding their numerical manipulations than you were in this thread.

Ah. Ninja-ed.

If you really want to know, I have put a stop to corruption on several occasions.
 
What? We are only allowed to say how many were aborted in one year, but not the total from 1 Jan 2016 to 31 Dec 2017, a period of two years?


Let's extrapolate. Let's leave out the tourist abortioners and just use the England & Wales one:

185K x 10 (over ten years) = 1.85m Thats a staggering TWO MILLION.
Over one generation, commonly supposed to consist of twelve years, that's

2,220,000

And in England & Wales alone.

Sure, all these people were really heartbroken.

It would actually help your credibility to stop rounding figures right next to the actual number. We can all grasp 1.85m in this context without thinking that you are saying it is just over 6ft.
 
Not mathematical ethics, clearly.

I gave you the figure 182K when in fact they were 185K for England and Wales. So, an understatement, in effect.

The topic was the issue of abortion and posters here appealing to the fact of rape victims or seriously disabled foetuses, when actually the vast majority are neither of these.

So, whether the figure is 182K, 186K or 191K, let's acknowledge the non-medical nature of most abortions.

Let's not pretend it is a worthy cause.

Tell it like it is.
 
What? We are only allowed to say how many were aborted in one year, but not the total from 1 Jan 2016 to 31 Dec 2017, a period of two years?

Let's extrapolate. Let's leave out the tourist abortioners and just use the England & Wales one:

185K x 10 (over ten years) = 1.85m

Thats a staggering TWO MILLION.

Over one generation, commonly supposed to consist of twelve years, that's

2,220,000

And in England & Wales alone.
When you're adding numbers from several years, why not go for the head prize. From wiki:
Since approval of abortion in the UK in 1967, 8,745,508 abortions have been performed.
And as to the highlighted portions:

No, the abortioner would be the person performing the abortion according to the rules of the English language. I'm not aware of MDs traveling to England & Wales with the purpose of performing abortions, and that's not what we're discussing here.

Are you for real? A generation is 12 years? You do realize that a generation, by definition, must at least be the time it takes a female from birth to be able to carry a child to term? :eye-poppi
From wiki:
In population biology and demography, the generation time is the average time between two consecutive generations in the lineages of a population. In human populations, the generation time typically ranges from 22 to 33 years.
And in the western world, that's closer to the maximum than the minimum.

Sure, all these people were really heartbroken.
We can discuss the ethics of this after we've cleared the kindergarten math that you seem to utterly fail.
 
Let's use Lothian's definition - which he claims is the accurate objectively scientific one - an unborn foetus is...'a parasite'.

This proves conclusively it is a discrete independent being in its own right, albeit having a symbiotic relationship with its host, in this case, its mother.

Well, not really:

Many parasites are obligate parasites and they cannot go through a life cycle independently or in their own right. All viruses are obligate parasites, are are some bacteria, such as Rickettsia and Chlamydia.

A fetus is not in a symbiotic relationship with the mom. The foetus does not supply any benefit to the mom, yet clearly does take resources away from, and negatively affects the physiology of, the mom. This asymmetrical relationship is a characteristic defining feature of parasitism.

To be pedantic, because of the genetic connections between the fetus and the mom, fetuses are not typically discussed in biology in terms of parasitism, commensalism, symbiosis. But Lothian was clearly not striving for detailed biological accuracy.

Oh my- I almost forgot to mention: you still have not answer the question. Perhaps you were inadvertently and unintentionally distracted?
 
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Wrong. It is an old joke.

Client to accountant: So, tell me what the figures are.

Accountant: What do you want them to be?

But Vixen, it's not something to be proud of, and I don't think its a general phenomenon- my dad was a very honest, part-time accountant. But in any case I suspect that dishonest accountants are better at hiding their numerical manipulations than you were in this thread.
 
When you're adding numbers from several years, why not go for the head prize. From wiki:

And as to the highlighted portions:

No, the abortioner would be the person performing the abortion according to the rules of the English language. I'm not aware of MDs traveling to England & Wales with the purpose of performing abortions, and that's not what we're discussing here.

Are you for real? A generation is 12 years? You do realize that a generation, by definition, must at least be the time it takes a female from birth to be able to carry a child to term? :eye-poppi
From wiki:

And in the western world, that's closer to the maximum than the minimum.


We can discuss the ethics of this after we've cleared the kindergarten math that you seem to utterly fail.

Utter nonsense.

Generation Y, or Millennials, typically thought of as those born between 1984 and 1996
https://hbr.org/2017/08/a-survey-of...generations-x-y-and-z-are-and-arent-different

IOW: TWELVE YEARS.
 
But Vixen, it's not something to be proud of, and I don't think its a general phenomenon- my dad was a very honest, part-time accountant. But in any case I suspect that dishonest accountants are better at hiding their numerical manipulations than you were in this thread.

Oh come on. If lawyers can laugh at themselves, so can we.
 
To help Vixen out in terms of answering the question of when does a clump of cells become a human being, I've shortened and modified a post I made in the other abortion thread:

There is no line that demarcates when a given sperm and a given oocyte become a human being. Certainly not the sperm or oocyte themselves- billions of one and scores of the other are thrown away in one's life time, so each of use leaves a trail of dead pre-humans behind us as we live our lives. And neither biology nor God care- that's the way it is set up!

The moment of conception after that one sperm and one oocyte meet? Well, probably 4 out of 5 of those zygotes are also discarded naturally, often because of severe flaws making successful development impossible, so again neither biology nor a deity appear to have invested much value in that stage. And in fact we do not assign humanity to single diploid cells in any other context: we shed from inside our cheeks every time we brush our teeth, excrete them with our poop. donate them to others when we donate blood, etc. Billions of them die naturally inside our bodies every day. We even intentionally try to kill them as savagely as possible when they become cancers. I have in my lab human cells from people who died many years ago. I use them for medical research to help actual human beings; should I give them funerals when I finish an experiment?

Some anti-abortion people say that a single-celled zygote has the potential to become a whole human being and therefore must be protected! Well I have bad news for them: many cells in our body have the potential to become a whole human being through somatic cell cloning/de-differentiation/somatic stem cell techniques. A cheek cell could become your younger identical twin- should there be a law to prevent you from spitting her or him down the sink?

So when does a zygote become a human life? Think about it: we don't consider killing plants, or fish, or flies murder, so presumably becoming human means the zygote must advance enough to become something special, something characteristic of humans and not of plants or other animals. It is not simply when the heart beats. It is not simply when the first action potentials occur in the tiny clump that will become a brain. Trout have much more advanced hearts and brains than do 3 month old human embryos, yet killing trout falls under fish and game regulations and not the criminal justice system!

Therefore the answer to when a zygote becomes a human being is one that must depends on one's personal views of living things in general and are typically based on considerations of intelligence of the creature under consideration. If you are profoundly sensitive to the sanctity of all life you need to be a strict vegetarian (perhaps one of those who only eat fruit that fall naturally from trees). I would fully respect that. However most of us feel comfortable with eating fish, or even cows; I eat both and biologically speaking the embryo is functionally and mentally inferior to what went into my hamburger.

But okay, perhaps you are a fruitarian and value all life equally. Fine- avoid chicken McNuggets and don't have an abortion yourself. But your views, no one person's views in fact, are so obviously the correct ones as to be imposed by society on all. And in particular, given it is the pregnant woman who carries the mass of cells and for whom the decision is most difficult and most personal, I very much believe it is her decision based on her views. Not yours, not mine, and certainly not the views held by only a minority of people in Ireland.

Taking all this into account, I personally think that drawing the line at which society should have a say is when the fetus becomes independently viable.
 
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What? We are only allowed to say how many were aborted in one year, but not the total from 1 Jan 2016 to 31 Dec 2017, a period of two years?


Let's extrapolate. Let's leave out the tourist abortioners and just use the England & Wales one:

185K x 10 (over ten years) = 1.85m


Thats a staggering TWO MILLION.

Over one generation, commonly supposed to consist of twelve years, that's

2,220,000

And in England & Wales alone.

Sure, all these people were really heartbroken.

My God! That means in just over 250 years the entire population of England and Wales will be destroyed! That is awful! And after that we will begin to accumulate more and more negatively numbered people. You see - I know math too!

Thankfully we have left Scotland out of our mathematical discussion so the future supply of whiskey and haggis will not be affected.
 
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