Abortion Protesters Who Get Abortions

ponderingturtle said:
Well it does depend on the reason one gets one. If someone is getting an abortion because the pregnancy is going to give them a stroke that is different than getting one because of an inconvientient pregnancy.
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There is a difference, but the pro-life picketers are lobbying for the law to change such that getting an abortion for either of those reasons would be illegal.
 
BenBurch said:
The fetus is not a human being…
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Yes, it most certainly is a human being.


BenBurch said:
The right grounds would be a ruling under the 13th amendment. Because compelling a woman to carry a fetus to term that she does not want to carry is slavery.
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If there is any truth to that argument, then it is a far more egregious form of slavery to compel parents to care for and provide for their children for the eighteen years that it takes to reach legal adulthood.
 
Bob Blaylock said:
Yes, it most certainly is a human being.
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Nope. It's human, but not a being.

If there is any truth to that argument, then it is a far more egregious form of slavery to compel parents to care for and provide for their children for the eighteen years that it takes to reach legal adulthood.
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It's wrong to make women have babies they don't want. Also, it seems that parents can give children up for adoption if they want.
 
George told me that in several instances, people who had been picketing his clinic later entered as patients - seeking abortions for themselves or their daughters, sisters, wives. The women obtained their abortions, then returned to the picket line. Apparently they found their own circumstances to be extenuating and compelling - but did not reach to imagine that every patient there had a similarly compelling story.
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Nothing new there. This strange hypocrisy of abortion protesters has been brought up before on these boards. Further fuels my theory that demonstrators and picketers as a rule don't really know or care much about the issue - while those that do know and care about the issue are out there doing stuff, such as volunteering or lobbying. Harsh, yes, and very likely false, but it's how it looks to me at times.

If there is any truth to that argument, then it is a far more egregious form of slavery to compel parents to care for and provide for their children for the eighteen years that it takes to reach legal adulthood.
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They aren't so compelled. Heard of giving up your kid for adoption? Orphanages?

The sexual assault argument is a good one, especially put the way it was above. If abortion was banned, except in instances of rape and risk to mother, what then happens if you get raped and can't convince the authorities an assault took place (and you would have to prove it through some serious scrutiny, or everyone in need of an abortion would cry bush rape by anonymous stranger)? You have to carry the child to term.
 
godless dave said:
There is a difference, but the pro-life picketers are lobbying for the law to change such that getting an abortion for either of those reasons would be illegal.
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Show me the people lobbying to make abortions were the fetus is killing the mother illegal.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Show me the people lobbying to make abortions were the fetus is killing the mother illegal.
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You have not been paying attention. Operation Rescue opposes all abortions, even in the case of rape, incest, or the health of the mother. Period.

I can understand about the incest part, given how most of them got into this world.
 
ponderingturtle said:
Show me the people lobbying to make abortions were the fetus is killing the mother illegal.
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You didn't say life above, you said "giving the mother a stroke". Strokes usually aren't fatal.

This organization wants to make it illegal to abort a fetus even if the pregnancy is a risk to the mother's health, as does this one.

Operation Rescue was already mentioned above.
 
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theprestige said:
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

This is an easy claim for the reporter (or for Tiller) to make. It's an extremely difficult claim to support, without access to Tillman's medical records, or a "whistleblower" from the picket lines, or both.

Instead of speculating on all the implications that flow from the claim, if it is true, I prefer to remain skeptical until such time as credible corroborating evidence is provided.
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The problem you are having finding the claim credible is not one of the claim being extraordinary. Quite the contrary, it's a claim that regularly comes up from various sources. Some of them were collected for the article/essay "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" by Joyce Arthur, who while being an activist also fancies herself a skeptic and an author (according to her site), and has written several essays on this and other topics.

While not medical records, I certainly suggest it as an interesting read. Casting the claim from the OP as if it were not a question that regularly comes up regarding the anti-abortion crowd is mistaken, to say the least.
 
JimBenArm said:
I wasn't able to read the links in the OP, so I don't know if this was addressed in the article or not, however, it seems to me that the people protesting could have only been protesting his performing late-term abortions, not all abortions. If this is the case, I see nothing hypocritical in them getting early-term abortions.

Now, if they were protesting abortions at any stage, then yes, they would be hypocrites in my opinion. I'm sure that my opinion will make them completely ashamed, and totally change their position on the matter.

Now that I've spoken, we can close the thread...
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Anecdote alert!--The folks who protest our local clinic are against all forms of abortion, so much so that volunteer "bouncers" are needed to escort the patient into the building.
 
shawmutt said:
Anecdote alert!--The folks who protest our local clinic are against all forms of abortion, so much so that volunteer "bouncers" are needed to escort the patient into the building.
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Yep. At the clinic here, I always see at least one "Abortion is murder" sign. If it's murder, making an exception for rape or incest or for the woman's life or health makes no sense. Also, if it's murder, why aren't they in favor of laws that would prosecute the woman (guilty of contracting a murder)?

I doubt very much they actually believe it's murder (or at least not if they've actually thought through the ramifications). Instead, I think they're just making careless and inflammatory remarks.

ThePrestige's point is well-taken. I'm really curious as to whether there's any way to confirm the story--actually whether Tiller actually said that, and whether it's actually true.
 
GreNME said:
The problem you are having finding the claim credible is not one of the claim being extraordinary. Quite the contrary, it's a claim that regularly comes up from various sources. Some of them were collected for the article/essay "The Only Moral Abortion is My Abortion" by Joyce Arthur, who while being an activist also fancies herself a skeptic and an author (according to her site), and has written several essays on this and other topics.

While not medical records, I certainly suggest it as an interesting read. Casting the claim from the OP as if it were not a question that regularly comes up regarding the anti-abortion crowd is mistaken, to say the least.
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Wow! Amazing. Thanks for that.
 
BenBurch said:
A BABY elephant is an elephant.

An elephant fetus is not an elephant.

A fetus is not a baby.

Nice try, but dishonest.
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Not in the least. My inclusion of "baby" was careless, though.

So, you say a fetus is not a human. Well, then what species is it? I'm sure you got the gist of this point from my last post, but your dishonesty allowed you to (unsuccessfully) try to obfuscate.
 
Its a mass of human cells that potentially could be a baby if it makes it to birth.

But its not a baby.

And its not a human being.

No more than the semen you spilled last time you had a wet dream was a human being.
 
godless dave said:
You didn't say life above, you said "giving the mother a stroke". Strokes usually aren't fatal.

This organization wants to make it illegal to abort a fetus even if the pregnancy is a risk to the mother's health, as does this one.

Operation Rescue was already mentioned above.
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The first site to which you linked ( http://www.prolifeacrossamerica.org/ ) doesn't even have the goal of making any abortions illegal. Thir goal is to discourage women from having abortions and encourage adoption through advertising. There mission statement is as follows:
Since 1989 PROLIFE Across AMERICA's Media Mission is to reach out through Billboard, TV, radio and newspaper ads to people who may not be reached in any other way. Our ads create an "Atmosphere of Life" in a "culture of death."

Totally educational, (non-profit and non-political), PROLIFE Across AMERICA
is committed to bringing positive, persuasive messages offering information
and alternatives - including adoption - and post abortion assistance to
those in need. All ads feature our 800# Hotline for Help.
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I couldn't find a mission statement on the second site, http://www.nrlc.org/ . That site has positions on many items of proposed legislation, but I could find nothing that indicates they're opposed to abortion to protect the life of the mother. Could you point me to where on that site you found that position?

Operation Rescue, http://www.operationrescue.org/ , is fairly extreme so I wouldn't be surprise if they're opposed to abortion to save the life of the mother and their banner states "Its activities are on the cutting edge of the abortion issue, taking direct action to restore legal personhood to the pre-born and stop abortion in obedience to biblical mandates", but I would like to see where on that site or in a quote by someone authorized to speak for Operation Rescue that they are opposed to abortion to save the mother's life. From that site:
For clarification, Troy Newman, Cheryl Sullenger, and Brian R. Chavez-Ochoa, Esq. are the only authorized spokespersons for Operation Rescue® at this time.
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The last two organizations probably do think that "for the health of the mother" is too broadly defined, but you haven't shown an anti-choice organization stating that it is opposed to abortion if the pregnancy risks the mother's life.
 
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Zygar said:
The only moral abortion is mine.
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There are three cases where even (most) pro-lifers will admit it's permissible to get an abortion: rape, incest, or to save the life of the mother.

There are three other, rarely spoken, cases where they will allow abortion: if the pregnant woman is MY wife, MY daughter, or MY mistress.

JoeTheJuggler said:
Yep. At the clinic here, I always see at least one "Abortion is murder" sign. If it's murder, making an exception for rape or incest or for the woman's life or health makes no sense. Also, if it's murder, why aren't they in favor of laws that would prosecute the woman (guilty of contracting a murder)?

I doubt very much they actually believe it's murder (or at least not if they've actually thought through the ramifications). Instead, I think they're just making careless and inflammatory remarks.
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I like to respond to the abortion-is-murder cry with "Oh? What LEGAL penalty, what CRIMINAL punishment, should a woman receive who gets an abortion? The death penalty? Life imprisonment?"

FlamingMoe said:
Not in the least. My inclusion of "baby" was careless, though.

So, you say a fetus is not a human. Well, then what species is it? I'm sure you got the gist of this point from my last post, but your dishonesty allowed you to (unsuccessfully) try to obfuscate.
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That's a bit disingenuous, isn't it? Or do you really not know the difference between a noun and an adjective?
 
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