"Abortion Doctor" Murdered

Lucky said:
If this post has any point at all, you seem to be saying that anyone who believes that "Abortion is murder" (and btw I don't believe any such thing) is therefore partially responsible for the murder of abortionists.
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No--not those who believe it, but those who make the assertion that "Abortion is murder."

I do think they're partly blameworthy, but not guilty of murder.

More importantly I think their condemnation of this murder and trying to distance themselves from it is shamefully hypocritical and logically inconsistent with their claim. (As are their other positions on abortion, as I said in my previous post.)
 
Some have shown no sorrow or regret over this murder, in broad daylight at a Church...

This is NOT the first such attack, from this 'movement' on doctors willing to perform abortions, in fact one spokesperson outwardly proclaimed to media outlets, "...this guy got what he deserved..." He even went as far as calling him "demonic".

Call them 'satan', and use violence to achieve political goals...

That reminds of something...starts with a "t"...ends in "ism"...what's the word?

Using violence to achieve political goals is still terrorism, isn't it?
 
Lucky said:
If this post has any point at all, you seem to be saying that anyone who believes that "Abortion is murder" (and btw I don't believe any such thing) is therefore partially responsible for the murder of abortionists.
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No, but the "Abortion is Murder" rhetoric does contribute to it.

Suppose you lived during WWII. Someone shoots the commandant of your friendly neighborhood death camp. Wouldn't you cheer a little? Wouldn't you give some support to the people assassinating these mass-murdering bastards? Hell, if you had the testicular fortitude, maybe you'd do some shooting yourself, wouldn't you?

I would.

The thing is, this is not a Godwin. The anti-abortion movement does use this kind of rhetoric. They do compare abortion to the Holocaust; hell, when I was in college, a bunch of loons showed up with giant banners displaying graphic photos of aborted fetuses and Holocaust victims. Why did they do this? Because at the time, Elie Wiesel was speaking, and they wanted him to see it! Elie ****ing Wiesel! (He, obviously, denounced them.)

And the thing is, this **** is mainstream. It's not the fringe elements that are spreading these messages, it's people like Randall Terry. It's people like Rush Limbaugh.


So no, I don't think every person who is anti-abortion is responsible for this. But I do place some of the responsibility on the anti-abortion movement leaders who set the message and spread the rhetoric. If you convince enough people that a doctor is a mass-murderer, eventually someone is going to act on that conviction.
 
Saying that abortion is murder is murder.

Goddamn murderers.

Someone should do something about them.
 
"Abortion is murder"
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It seems to me it's the murder part that they don't like. So those in the church who distance themselves from the murder of this doctor and in fact condemn it, are not hypocrites at all. They are consistent in their belief that murder is wrong.
 
The Painter said:
It seems to me it's the murder part that they don't like. So those in the church who distance themselves from the murder of this doctor and in fact condemn it, are not hypocrites at all. They are consistent in their belief that murder is wrong.
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What do you do to "mass murderers"? Is it enough to wave placards in their faces and hand out leaflets? No, you bring them to justice and execute them. When grand juries can't find anything to bring the mass baby murderer up on, well...you resort to different means. This isn't an isolated incident, this has spanned two decades and nine attacks.

You're soft pedaling the rhetoric they're using.

Josh Marshall has a good take on this:

There's been a lot of push on the pro-choice side to identify the murder of George Tiller as an act of domestic terrorism rather than a simple murder or 'abortion clinic shooting.' It's a push I agree with. But there's a detail in Zack Roth's follow up piece on the shooting that puts the issue in a much more concrete light. Roeder, the suspect in Tiller's murder, had apparently twice tried to vandalize another clinic in the last two weeks -- and in a way that suggested it might be setting the stage for a more serious break in. An employee at the clinic managed to get Roeder's license plate number and reported it to federal authorities, only to be told that nothing could be done before a grand jury had been impaneled.

It seems difficult to imagine that similar suspicious behavior, let alone actual vandalism, would have generated such a passive response if the clinic had been a synagogue or a federal building and the suspect had an Arab name.
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The Painter said:
It seems to me it's the murder part that they don't like. So those in the church who distance themselves from the murder of this doctor and in fact condemn it, are not hypocrites at all. They are consistent in their belief that murder is wrong.
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No they're not--at least not most of these "moderates".

If they believed it was murder, they would support laws that sought to punish the woman who conspired or contracted for the murder.


If they beleived it was murder, it would make no sense at all for them to allow exceptions for rape and incest (which most moderate pro-lifers do support).

ETA: If they believed it was murder, it also wouldn't make sense to allow exceptions for the mother's health or life. I can't imagine they could construe such situations as killing in self-defense! (To make that defense, you have to believe that an unlawful force is threatening someone's life. If the fetus is a person, it has done nothing unlawful.) Also, some forms of contraception that are widely used--yes even by pro-lifers!--would also be considered murder. For that matter, even if they refrain from using contraceptives themselves, their actions wrt to people around them using such contraceptives are not consistent with belief that those friends and family members are committing murder.

They spout this inflammatory rhetoric that they themselves don't believe in, then pretend to be shocked when someone actually believes it and acts accordingly.

Yes, I understand there is an exceptionally small minority who consistently hold the position that, "Abortion is murder" (they would give the woman who has an abortion a life sentence for conspiring to "murder" the fetus and they make no exceptions for rape or incest or even for the life or health of the mother) but who also eschew violence.

I would love to meet those three or four people some day.

(By the way, although I understand, "Abortion is murder" to mean "Abortion should be considered murder", I could take them at face value and prove they don't literally believe, "Abortion is murder." If you knew of a murder being committed and you are opposed to violence, you'd probably dial 911 and report the matter to the authorities. If someone really literally believed "Abortion is murder" they would clearly be delusional.)
 
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If they believed it was murder, they would support laws that sought to punish the woman who conspired or contracted for the murder.
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Try this one on for size;

Woman charged with murder for stillbirth

I also assume, that you assume an unborn child is not alive so it can't be murder. Your opinion is not law.

A fetus must be at least 16 weeks old to classify as a murder victim, officials said.
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http://www.themonitor.com/articles/palmview-17831-degree-murder.html

The California Supreme Court upheld the law in 1994, saying a fetus older than the seven- to eight-week embryonic term did not need to be viable outside the mother's womb to be a murder victim.
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http://cbs13.com/local/Stabbing.New.Year.2.474994.html

16 weeks. 7 to 8 weeks. Didn't this doctor preform late term abortions? Isn't that beyond these thresholds? By these laws, wouldn't that be murder? No, because the would be Mom said it's OK and yet they charge another "Mom" with murder for stillborn. Go figure.


It's nice that the issue is so black and white to you. Clearly it is not for the majority of people. How can anyone be charged with murder if it's not alive? In China female fetus are regularly aborted because they want sons. Is that OK? The issue goes much deeper than murder or not murder.
 
The Painter said:
I also assume, that you assume an unborn child is not alive so it can't be murder.
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You assume wrong. I believe that because the fetus is not a person, it's not murder. If you want more particulars, my approach is close to that of Alonzo Fyfe's desire utilitarianism. Since a fetus before a certain point lacks the neurological structures and functions that result in having desires that may be fulfilled or thwarted, it is not murder.

Your opinion is not law.
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So are you suffering from the delusion that abortion IS murder according to the law?


It's nice that the issue is so black and white to you.
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Rubbish. I'm strongly criticizing people who go around saying "Abortion is murder" and you accuse me of seeing things as black and white?!!

I'm pro-choice. I don't want to take this moral choice away from women and doctors.
 
BenBurch said:
That's because he's honest and decent. Which many on the Right just are not.
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Wow Ben, that was incredibly nice of you, especially considering that I was pretty brutal towards you during the election stuff. I feel bad about that now. I let my emotions get the better of me.

Thank you very much, and to everyone else who is giving me a chance. I'm trying very hard to learn from you guys and open my mind.

Thanks Ben, that was very kind of you.
 
BenBurch said:
I confronted several from "Concerned Women For America" at a protest and they said "Why should we care what happens to those sluts?!"

Good Christian Women, they.
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Where are all the "pro-lifers" lining up to adopt the carried-to-term unwanted child?
 
MattusMaximus said:
Pretty rough stuff, but I did get past the back-alley abortion bit - eventually. Once I got to the section about the clinical abortion procedure, it was much easier going.
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Whoopi Goldberg did a comic bit about her being a surfer chick.
Lots of silly stuff... lots of laughter from the audience.
When Whoopi described her (surfer chick persona) attempts to self-induce an abortion, the audience went totally silent!
 
I've always been under the impression that there are already plenty of people trying to adopt children. I've heard stories of people waiting for as long as a year to adopt a child.

I googled a bit and found some forum discussions where people say times ranging from 6 to 18 months, and longer, but also depending on what parameters the adopting parents seek.

For example:

http://forums.adoption.com/christian-adoptive-parents/100576-how-long-wait-adopt-child.html

Some actual Christians discussing how long to wait for an adoption!

ETA: It wouldn't surprise me to find out that there are many unwanted babies though. I'm open to seeing any real data.
 
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In the meantime one of the US soldiers shot outside of Washington by a Islamic nutjob. died. No media coverage, no statement from Obama.
Nice double standard.
 
I Ratant said:
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This is so ridiculous it defies rational thought!
But it's certainly in step with the irrationalities of the christian faith.
"Pro-choice".. the woman can choose.
"Pro-life"... the woman can't choose!
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So you're "pro-death"?

I think many moderates would say they think abortion as a form of birth control for the careless should be discouraged, but ultimately it's up to the woman and her doctor to choose; hence, pro-life pro-choice.

That's why I think the better terminology is pro-choice vs. anti-choice or pro abortion rights vs. anti abortion rights rather than pro-choice vs. pro-life.
 
dudalb said:
In the meantime one of the US soldiers shot outside of Washington by a Islamic nutjob. died. No media coverage, no statement from Obama.
Nice double standard.
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Are protesters that say "US soldiers are murderers" partly responsible?
 
Philip said:
Are protesters that say "US soldiers are murderers" partly responsible?
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Or how about those that say "America had it comin'!" or even "America's pigeons have come home to roost". :D

Seems to me these things incite and even excuse violence against America (which includes American soldiers obviously).

People who are already inclined to do bad things to us can only be emboldend by hearing that some of our very own citizens think they have every good reason to hurt us.
 
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Philip said:
So you're "pro-death"?

I think many moderates would say they think abortion as a form of birth control for the careless should be discouraged, but ultimately it's up to the woman and her doctor to choose; hence, pro-life pro-choice.

That's why I think the better terminology is pro-choice vs. anti-choice or pro abortion rights vs. anti abortion rights rather than pro-choice vs. pro-life.
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Pro-life as we know it admits no grey area.
The woman MUST bear the child.
Any other viewpoint is pro-choice, and there are many many reasons to consider the choice and counsel the woman.
But it is the only rational situation.
 
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