Abolish prisons, says Angela Davis

[JAR]

After strengthening its position in Poland, the Soviet Union attacked Estonia, Finland, Latvia, and Lithuania. I got this information from page 504-505 of the sections titled "Soviet Foreign Policy Between Wars" and "Territorial Expansion" of the section titled "History" of the article titled "Russia" from the "Q-R" volume of "The World Book Encyclopedia" copyrighted in 1962.

I'd like to note that I was incorrect when I said above that the Soviet Union attacked Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. According to page 15 of "A Frozen Hell: The Russo-Finnish War of 1939-40", Stalin absorbed Estonia by inviting the foreign minister of Estonia to Moscow on September 22, and one week later an agreement was signed that gave Moscow the right to station troops, aircraft, and naval units in that country. In effect, Estonia became part of the Soviet Union.

Then the foreign ministers of Latvia and Lithuania were invited to Moscow during the first week of October, and on the fifth and eleventh of that month, they also signed "mutual assistance" treaties with the USSR that would lead to them becoming part of the Soviet Union.

There was no attack by Soviet Union against Estonia, Latvia, and Lithuania. I mistakenly thought there was because in the World Book Encyclopedia article I originally got the information from, it said, "After strengthening its position in Poland, the Soviet Union turned on Estonia, Finland, Latvia, and Lithuania."

I misinterpreted "turned on" as meaning "attacked." It didn't occur to me that something else could be meant by "turned on."

 

[hgc]

...

"The gathering clouds of revolutionary storm bring to mind the teaching and practices of Stalin. The whole of Stalin's works, without exception, are an invaluable source from which communists, revolutionaries and patriots should take example.

...

This is where you go off the rails, Kookamonga. Never a better sign of a fundementalist nutter than "no exceptions."

 

[NightG1]

Abolish prisons, says Angela Davis
by Robyn Marshall
Angela Davis

Huz:

Are you ready to discuss the two million rapes committed by the Red Army in Germany after WWII?

 

[JAR]

Re: Re: Abolish prisons, says Angela Davis

Huz:

Are you ready to discuss the two million rapes committed by the Red Army in Germany after WWII?

Well, you have to remember NightG1, Huzington will not discuss the two million rapes committed by the Red Army because, according to him, it is "not relevant."

 

[Ed]

Abolish prisons, says Angela Davis

Absurd. Where are we going to store all the black dudes if we get rid of prisons? Answer me that. Sheesh. Get rid of prisons, have black dudes running all over. Stupid. You gotta think these things out you commie nutter, you.

edit for spelling cuz these deep ideas deserve the best

 

[peptoabysmal]

Jeebus...

Now that Hanoi John is running for president, it looks like I'm going to be forced to re-live the 60's.

*sigh*

Who's next, Timothy Leary?

 

[Ladewig]

I'm having a hard time understanding the step from premises to conclusion.

She maintains:

There are numerous abuses by police and prosecuters (often but not always based on class and race).
There are numerous civil rights abuses by prison officials.
Some sentences are not appropriate for specific crimes (e.g. drug possession).
Prison wages are so miniscule that they might be classified as a form of slavery.

Therefore:
Prisons should be abolished.

I see those premises (which to some degree are true) as leading to the conclusion that the criminal justice system should be reformed. Such reformation should take place not just because of the appropriateness of it but also because such reforms will reduce costs in the long run.

Abolishing prisons and replacing them with a sytems of forced reformations does not solve all the problems listed in the premises. It will still be possible to falsely convict people and send them into reformation programs. Such programs can be run by crooked or prejudiced administrators who might insist that a particular criminal will always require a bit more reformation.

And of course, what should be done with the unreformable?

 

[The Central Scrutinizer]

Where did anyone get the idea that Angela Davis is even relevant?

 

[RandFan]

As we all know, Stalin never imprisoned anybody. But millions of people were rehabilitated to death.

Pol Pot, Mao, etc. They all rehabilitated millions to death.

 

[RandFan]

I'm having a hard time understanding the step from premises to conclusion.

She maintains:

There are numerous abuses by police and prosecuters (often but not always based on class and race).
There are numerous civil rights abuses by prison officials.
Some sentences are not appropriate for specific crimes (e.g. drug possession).
Prison wages are so miniscule that they might be classified as a form of slavery.

Therefore:
Prisons should be abolished.

I see those premises (which to some degree are true) as leading to the conclusion that the criminal justice system should be reformed. Such reformation should take place not just because of the appropriateness of it but also because such reforms will reduce costs in the long run.

Abolishing prisons and replacing them with a sytems of forced reformations does not solve all the problems listed in the premises. It will still be possible to falsely convict people and send them into reformation programs. Such programs can be run by crooked or prejudiced administrators who might insist that a particular criminal will always require a bit more reformation.

And of course, what should be done with the unreformable?

Excellent response. I was thinking on the same lines. I wish I could have made as eloquent of an argument but fortunately I don't have to.

The conclusion is a non sequitur.

 

[Outcast]

I do agree that we do need to reform the prison system. It is over crowded and over priced for what we get for our tax payers dollars.

I suggest:

If a person is found guilty of murder beyond a shadow of a doubt, they would be executed the next day.

If he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt give them life in prison.

Pay Russia $10.00/day to take care of our lifers and long term criminals. They have lots of empty gulags in Siberia they could use.

To the three strikes and your out add four strikes and you fry.

Then we can work on rehab for the minor criminals.

 

[The Fool]

I do agree that we do need to reform the prison system. It is over crowded and over priced for what we get for our tax payers dollars.

I suggest:

If a person is found guilty of murder beyond a shadow of a doubt, they would be executed the next day.

If he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt give them life in prison.

Pay Russia $10.00/day to take care of our lifers and long term criminals. They have lots of empty gulags in Siberia they could use.

To the three strikes and your out add four strikes and you fry.

Then we can work on rehab for the minor criminals.

I hope one day to understand this sort of thinking.....But then again, it depends on if these are your opinions or just your favorite trolling lines.

 

[Outcast]

I hope one day to understand this sort of thinking.....But then again, it depends on if these are your opinions or just your favorite trolling lines.

I don't have to troll just stating my opinion is enough and this is my opinion.

 

[Charlie Monoxide]

Stalin also contributed a lot to the "many fields of science". What he contributed was many examples of how NOT to conduct science.

Charlie (Stalin a good guy? sheesh) Monoxide

 

[Ladewig]

Pay Russia $10.00/day to take care of our lifers and long term criminals. They have lots of empty gulags in Siberia they could use.

You seem to have glossed over the passing of a Constitutional amendment repealing the last half of the 8th amendment which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. Also, if one is to follow the Bill of Rights and allow convicts access to the civil and criminal court systems, then transporting them back to the U.S. for every court appearance could be rather costly.

To the three strikes and you're out add four strikes and you fry.

Given the number of people who have been falsely convicted of felonies and crimes incorrectly classified as felonies, death would be a rather inappropriate sentence.

 

[headscratcher4]

You're gonna have to take my word for it...the gulag system was completely voluntary, as were many of the deaths...no, really. Completely voluntary.

 

[Outcast]

You're gonna have to take my word for it...the gulag system was completely voluntary, as were many of the deaths...no, really. Completely voluntary.

No, I didn’t realize it was voluntary, but that would make sense. Since being in the Gulag was a lot like being in Stalag 13, I can see why people would volunteer to go there. As for as the deaths go, the USSR has always been a humane and progressive state. Even after 50 years has passed, our doctor assisted suicide program pales in comparison to their doctor assisted suicide program.

 

[Skeptic]

I misinterpreted "turned on" as meaning "attacked." It didn't occur to me that something else could be meant by "turned on."

Must... resist... obvious... jokes...

 

[gnome]

If a person is found guilty of murder beyond a shadow of a doubt, they would be executed the next day.

If he is guilty beyond a reasonable doubt give them life in prison.

Can you give an example of a hypothetical situation where someone that is guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" but not "Beyond a shadow of doubt"?

 

[Outcast]

Can you give an example of a hypothetical situation where someone that is guilty "beyond a reasonable doubt" but not "Beyond a shadow of doubt"?

reasonable doubt is a legal term.

reasonable doubt n. not being sure of a criminal defendant's guilt to a moral certainty. Thus, a juror (or judge sitting without a jury) must be convinced of guilt of a crime (or the degree of crime, as murder instead of manslaughter) "beyond a reasonable doubt," and the jury will be told so by the judge in the jury instructions. However, it is a subjective test since each juror will have to decide if his/her doubt is reasonable. It is more difficult to convict under that test, than "preponderance of the evidence" to decide for the plaintiff (party bringing the suit) in a civil (non-criminal) trial.

It dose allow for some doubt in a person's mind as to the guilt or innocence of a person. For example Timothy McVeigh was found guilty beyond a reasonable doubt. "Shadow of a doubt" is a common usage term and not a legal term.