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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

Don't get your hopes up. The guy who doesn't believe that flight 77 hit the Pentagon is now lecturing us on delusions. The woo is strong with this one.
Today 12:08 AM

I wouldn't get my hopes up either if the reference is to this post:

Why does it have to? When you are correlating the FDR data to the real world, there is manual intervention (as beachnut, Reheat, and others have described). Did you bother to follow the link to the Little Rock animation provided earlier?

Your insistence on only one interpretation of how the system should work (as opposed to how it does work) is getting a bit tedious.




I have four different software programs on this very machine. They all do raw data import/CSV export. All of them also do mapping functions that require manual input of correlation factors. Sure, certain sets of factors that are used often can be stored and loaded with a click of a button, but in order to ensure my calculations are correct, I need to know how to come up with the factors on my own, how to enter each one, how to spot when there are discrepencies, and what those might mean.

The fact that no one bothered to do that for this data simply means that no one bothered to do that for this data.

If he/she had the state of mind to list the software package and version, it would be a small step toward addressing the question.

What four programs do you have and what are the versions?
 
I wouldn't get my hopes up either if the reference is to this post:



If he/she had the state of mind to list the software package and version, it would be a small step toward addressing the question.

What four programs do you have and what are the versions?

The animation is a red herring, ignore it.
 
So? I offered four examples of software that can offer different files from the same source code.

You have yet to address this.
Hey, if you want, we can argue about the CSV data I work with. It's actually pretty mundane, since it's exported from the historical files from HMI software, and reformatted for water quality reports and such. Yeah. Good stuff if you're in need of sleep.
 
It's been two or two and a half years since I read up on this, but IIRC it was around 15,000, and the baro knobs at both seats were reset...fiddled with first.

Edit: yup, they start changing at about 18,000 and wind up at 30.24 on #1 altimeter and 30.23 on #2.

Ah, yes... I do recall that now. The altimeter was reset, but the animation didn't reflect the change. It's been a long time since I looked at that and had forgotten.

Then there is only one conclusion - 9/11 was an INSIDE JERB!
 
The direction this discussion is taking is similar to Turboprop's obsession with FDR theory versus empirical evidence. They must both grow from the same tree!
 
The direction this discussion is taking is similar to Turboprop's obsession with FDR theory versus empirical evidence. They must both grow from the same tree!

Yes it is. I've been looking at the issue raised and it doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. When the FAA sent us the TRACON data, it was in a text output with tracks and returns all mixed in together. I had to write software to parse the returns from the track data and then export it to csv. What I learned was that each TRACON had it own azimuth rotation to account for, and then there was lat/long for each ASR to determine so that positional values could be calculated. It was a lot of fun. The point is, each TRACON was different and each had its own set of constants that had to be calculated and applied to the data before the csv file data was generating coherent paths for each plane.

I also worked with the C# code developed by Warren Strutt, converting it to VB.net for generating csv outputs for the UAL93 and AAL77 raw data files. The UAL93 was fairly straightforward after the frame structure was determined, but each data field had its own little conversion to convert it into useful data. UAL77 was limited because the data is stored in a compressed form using a modified-Hoffman algorithm. However, both he and I were able to extract some unencrypted frames which verified that it was actually fdr data. I abandoned the project last year because the Hoffman algorithm proved to be far more involved and time consuming to reverse engineer than any potential value of the result (especially since we do have a good RO2).

So all of this dancing around csv file generation is silly. When a raw file is imported into the software (whether Strutt's, mine, or some off-the-shelf software), a frame configuration file of some type has to be inputted too. It contains the variables required to make sense of the data (it is after all a serial bit data stream). The quality of the output, whether it is a csv file or animation will depend upon that configuration (or as we non-fdr guys like to call it, the *.ini file) file.

It is NOT as simple as click on the raw file, import and presto-chango a wonderfully accurate csv file or animation. I know, I spent over a year of my life decoding the frame structure only to learn that it was useless without knowing the Hoffman algorithm used. But such is life :)

By the way Milner, what software and versions Hokulele uses has nothing to do with an fdr and csv/animation outputs of an fdr. Hokulele was only saying that csv file generation is software specific and is not quite as straightforward as you want to assert. Some translation matrix is involved as an intermediate step.
 
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As mentioned, the type of software I am using really doesn't matter, as it is the principle that counts in this discussion, but for those who are interested in surveying, the four I have are: Carlson Survey 2009, Autodesk Civil 3D 2008, Autodesk Land Desktop 2008, and Trimble Geomatics Office (TGO) 1.63. If you are truly bored and like to play with .NET, there are API's that are easily available for the Autodesk products, and I am sure I can dig around for the other two.
 
By the way Milner, what software and versions Hokulele uses has nothing to do with an fdr and csv/animation outputs of an fdr. Hokulele was only saying that csv file generation is software specific and is not quite as straightforward as you want to assert. Some translation matrix is involved as an intermediate step.

This is true, however the "translation matrix" as you call it is used throughout the entire transposition. The program does not treat a portion of the data with one set of rules (operations), and suddenly switch modes mid CSV dump.

The variables do not change. The code does not change. The operators associated with the variables do not change. The only dynamic data is provided by the raw file.

Thank you for your time everyone. I may be reached via PM for further contact if necessary.
 
So his tactic is to argue over software?
As if that disproves what occurred?
What about the passengers and crew?
Oh well I doubt he will address this.
Serously what mential illness or brain defect causes this type of thinking?
 
Out of curiosity, Scott, do you believe that flight 77 hit the Pentagon?

No sir, not at this point.



i dont' believe you understand how this all fits together, or how a CSV file is created, nor what a CSV file is based on.

Forget the aircraft for a moment. Look at the data. There are different values
for the same parameter while the aircraft is sitting on the runway.

What expert from the NTSB could let such a huge error slide? How is this possible based on the software used to create the animation and CSV?

What is your theory on how these values became different?

I would imagine that he will now retire to his friends for a wonderful "I PWNed them" session.

TAM:)
 
This is true, however the "translation matrix" as you call it is used throughout the entire transposition. The program does not treat a portion of the data with one set of rules (operations), and suddenly switch modes mid CSV dump.

The variables do not change. The code does not change. The operators associated with the variables do not change. The only dynamic data is provided by the raw file.

Thank you for your time everyone. I may be reached via PM for further contact if necessary.

So, I take it that you don't want to talk about serial bit data streams?
 
This is true, however the "translation matrix" as you call it is used throughout the entire transposition. The program does not treat a portion of the data with one set of rules (operations), and suddenly switch modes mid CSV dump.

The variables do not change. The code does not change. The operators associated with the variables do not change. The only dynamic data is provided by the raw file.

Thank you for your time everyone. I may be reached via PM for further contact if necessary.

Scott: The 757 crashed into the Pentagon. Get passed that. When faced with a seeming contradictions of some sensor data and the reality of the plane, the plane wins. The data is either wrong for some reason that we could try to understand or the meaning of the data is misunderstood. Any engineer would understand that. A programmer of payroll systems might never have had to deal with real-world sensor data.

Something about Scott's phrasing suggests that either English isn't his first language or he is somehow exaggerating his programming expertise. I can't put my finger in it but in another post it was as if he hasn't heard of the "if" statement. His absolutely rigid statement of his problem doesn't help me understand his expertise. I really don't like to go Ad-hominem on him but he dismisses the arguments of people that clearly understand the data and the tools without any specific reason.
 
Something about Scott's phrasing suggests that either English isn't his first language or he is somehow exaggerating his programming expertise. I can't put my finger in it but in another post it was as if he hasn't heard of the "if" statement. His absolutely rigid statement of his problem doesn't help me understand his expertise. I really don't like to go Ad-hominem on him but he dismisses the arguments of people that clearly understand the data and the tools without any specific reason.

I tend to agree with you. Notice how he excused himself when I started talking about the raw data file and the programming required to extract meaningful data from the data stream. Reckon we went over his head a little.
 
The animation is a product of the FDR, there are no errors in the FDR that have not been explained; the FDR supports 77 impacting the Pentagon in spite of the FACT it was found in the Pentagon. LOL

Today many kids in the United States studied fact and opinion; our new truthers missed that day.

Because the animation is derived from the FDR (primary evidence) the animation is not a valid tool to use for 911Truth delusions. EOS (but not with delusion idea believers)

The raw data from the FDR is all you need to see the facts, and support for 77 impacting the Pentagon on track, on speed.

Thank you for your time everyone. I may be reached via PM for further contact if necessary.
For what? More delusions?
 
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Scott: The 757 crashed into the Pentagon. Get passed that. When faced with a seeming contradictions of some sensor data and the reality of the plane, the plane wins. The data is either wrong for some reason that we could try to understand or the meaning of the data is misunderstood.

There is no problem with the FDR data at all in the area we're discussing. He may be very competent in the programming field (that's as yet unknown), but he didn't have a clue about pressure altitude (which is what he was initially arguing). Further, he had the audacity to arrogantly argue with both beachnut and I about it when it was plainly obvious that he was clueless. That issue was probably a lead-in to his obsession (just like pffft) with the fact that the altimeter in the ANIMATION did not reflect the CSV when the altimeter was reset on descent. Rather than attempting to identify possible reasons he pretends that it can't happen EVEN THO' he didn't even know the software used by the NTSB.

He seems to be no different than our last FDR/Electronics/Computer related "expert" as the direction of the argument is exactly the same. It's quite obvious that he didn't just innocently google and run across the thread. He has swallowed the pffft woo and is here to attempt to pwn us. Good freakin' luck, twoofer!
 
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Your replies have taken on a tone of agitation since bringing up these fine points of the FDR data and CSV translation. Don't be upset because all of your programming languages are obsolete and dated.
Only a delusion believer and inventor like Balsamo makes insults like this. Good for you, a not so veiled failed insult. The animation is a product of the FDR that you don't understand in the first place and your ideas on programming are not too flexible; you seem to be obsolete with your lack of knowledge and imagination on programming issues. You sound just like Balsamo.
Still you cannot grasp the issue between the exported data not matching the animation which is derived from the same file. I don't know what to say other than you have no idea how to program. I'd offer to post some code to explain how this all works, but I'm sure you will suddenly become busy again.
The animation matches the FDR; you just don't have a clue. You never did show me how the FDR positions the Pentagon or the runway. Data please!? You don’t have the knowledge to understand this.

In any case, if you do have some spare time I'd be more than happy to have you step through some program code to illustrate your understanding.
Not on topic, you don't even understand the altimeter in the animation and why 300 feet was showing at takeoff. You appear like Balsamo is coaching you, he lacks knowledge in flying procedures.
The only delusion is that your NTSB has provided two files from the same source with conflicting values. Yet you challenge my skill after listing anything but the most current programming languages? There is much more to this puzzle than just this simple point, but we can't move forward until you clue into the obvious fault.
What two files? Your post is shallow on the facts. What files? You failed to point out faults, no real facts or evidence from you. You can't figure out how they applied the correct for the animation and you claim to be some super smart programmer, but I suspect you are just a p4t messenger here to post nothing, claim victory, and leave.

The animation is a visual representation of the FDR data. There is not data in the FDR from 77 to accurately place the runway image or the Pentagon. There is come discussion room to talk about ways the animation could start from parking based on certain data from the FDR independent of “relative” position data. But that would be for experts in FDR.

The point is the animation is a product of the FDR, the FDR is the final word. Using the animation with respect to the image of the Pentagon, is proof you are unable to understand the raw FDR information. Failure.

It's only my gut feeling, but I find it really strange that a hijacker would waste his time fooling with buttons to calibrate the pressure altimeter on BOTH panels while flying through highly monitored airspace even though he intended on crashing the aircraft. Very meticulous of Hani I might add. Heck, if I was crashing a 757, I would want to set both altimeters! What a joke.
The terrorist was a trained pilot who knew how to change the altimeter; we pilots learn the altimeter right from the beginning. Sorry, it is a procedure; these murderers rented simulators and practiced flying. It is not strange it is a habit. You don't understand because you are not a pilot. Looks like the idiot in the other seat missed setting the correct number; so the dolt pilot (he was bad, I am an instructor and I can see in the FDR how bad he was; but then he did not care) was not very meticulous, that is minor but both altimeters should finally be set the same. You can’t get this right for being wrong.

The funny part of 911 for me is when p4t pilots in the safety of a simulator failed hit buildings; FAILED. The expert p4t pilots are not as good at hitting a point as the terrorist, save one due to the heroes on Flight 93.

The highly monitored airspace would have nothing to do with setting the altimeter, all the airspace he was flying in was controlled airspace, you have been wooed by people like Balsamo. Is he feeding you these stupid statements? Joke? Your ideas are the joke saying 77 did not hit the Pentagon is about the dumbest of all delusions 911Truth has; and you share the delusions; and you are the expert programmer.

I have heard this dumb statement before, “ highly monitored airspace”. Flight 77 was in controlled airspace and then in the terminal area, ATC was trying to keep other flights clear of the uncontrolled plane, not much more can be done; the skies of the United States over the land were free from armed aircraft patrols and why over the past 50 years missiles have not accidentally dropped on schools, malls, and houses.
 

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