AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[jtribby]

Actually, it's magnetic variation. AFAIK noone here has had a problem with AA77's last compass swing. .

Thanks for the correction, you are right. I was just quoting Gravys' original.

 

[beachnut]

Im confused. Why doesn't the NTSB disclose such a blatant error on their part? The NTSB states in the same letter that they want everything as accurate as possible when distributing information through the FOIA. They disclose an error in the clock annotation, but they make no mention of a "failure to account for magnetic deviation". The NTSB has set precedent in correcting their errors on such an issue. Google American 1420 in Little Rock. The NTSB corrected just a small 3 deg error in their animation. Why havent they corrected it in the American 77 animation when they disclose other errors such as the clock? Has he NTSB become incompetent? Is there really an error? One would think the NTSB would disclose such a blatant error since they disclose other errors. Does anyone here know more than the NTSB?

Also, Scott, the reason the csv and animation don't match with respect to the climb is due to pressure altitude vs. true altitude. However, it is interesting to note that they do match on the descent through 18,000 all the way to end of animation. Why did the NTSB remove the atimeter setting data on the descent in the animation? To make the aircraft appear lower than true altitude? If this data was not omitted, the animation altimeter would read almost 300 feet higher, as it does at departure at IAD.

Interesting....

Working copy! Which part of working copy do you not understand?

Like your previous posts, the NTSB animation is a working copy (copies in your case).

Note: the NTSB did not do an investigation of Flight 77, there was no accident, it was a criminal investigation by the FBI. So the NTSB did products for the FBI.

Using the FDR anyone can figure out the flight path of 77 impacts the Pentagon and matches RADAR data. There are several methods even a kid in high school (maybe grade school) can do it; all they need is time.

Therefore, after the NTSB confirms the FDR is 77, the FDR information is not needed.

There are no errors you or anyone can point to that make 77’s impact a non-event.

Please explain without being a Balsamo clone which part of working copy you don’t understand because Balsamo can’t for 11.2G failed math of him figure out what working copy means. Can you?

 

[jtribby]

You've likely found this already, but I thought I'd post it anyways..

[/B]

Bolding mine.

hmmm. I wonder why it was wrong in the first version......any ideas Scott?

Thanks. There it is. They also note an error in rudder pointers.

The NTSB notes errors via the FOIA in their "working copy" of AA77 animation. They make no mention of a "magnetic variation error". They are well aware of the discrepency.

It's also interesting to note that the NTSB error for AA1420 was a "heading data" error, and that they note the actual motion/plot of their animation was correct.

"The aircraft motion depicted in the animation is accurate. However, heading data values....are corrected in the updated version."

In other words, their map wasn't "rotated" on American 1420. Their heading data was wrong.

 

[Gravy]

Pilots For 9/11 Truth called the NTSB and emailed them regarding such a discrepency, its listed in their forum. They spoke to the guy who actually signed off on the reports, Jim Ritter, as well as the NTSB Spokeperson Ted Lopatkiewicz on 10/26/06.

Thanks, but what did Ritter and Lopatkiewicz say?

The letter you reference is dated March 22, 2007. If the NTSB couldn't catch their own error since 2002 (dates of the original csv file), they were notified of such discrepencies almost 6 months prior to the letter you reference. The NTSB has never made any mention of a "failure to account for magnetic deviation" and they are aware of such a discrepency in their "working copy" which they state they want everything to be as accurate as possible.

The only people I have seen make the claim of a magetic deivation are people here. The NTSB makes no such claim while admitting to other errors. And as show above, they were aware of the flight path discrepencies.

Perhaps they didn't think it was worth taking the time to correct, since the animation was neither for official use nor for general release. But they could have at least made a notation as they did with the time error. I think it's important to remember that the vast majority of people don't have the same worries and preoccupations over inconsequential things that truthers do.

 

[Gravy]

In other words, their map wasn't "rotated" on American 1420. Their heading data was wrong.

Do we know how that happened?
Edit: see below.

 

[Gravy]

hmmm. I wonder why it was wrong in the first version......any ideas Scott?

Here it is, from the "Board Meeting" link you posted:

[SIZE=-1]The heading data used in the previous animation to drive the airplane's direction was based on the magnetic heading recorded on the Solid State Flight Data Recorder (SSFDR). However, the airplane's flight path, heading, and the position of the runway are based on the use of true heading, which is 3 degrees higher than magnetic heading. In both animations, the heading (with localizer and glideslope deviation) instrument display is driven by the magnetic heading data recorded on the SSFDR.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

 

[jtribby]

Thanks, but what did Ritter and Lopatkiewicz say?

"No Comment".

You can listen to the phone call through any google seach of "Phone Call with NTSB"

Perhaps they didn't think it was worth taking the time to correct,

So they mention a clock annotation error in their "working copy", but don't mention a magnetic "deviation" error in which they corrected only a small 3 degree error for AA1420? Really?

Which is more important to correct?

AA1420, a plane which ran off the runway in Little Rock with a 3 degree heading data error, or...

American 77, a plane which reportedly impacted the pentagon on a day which changed the world?

Which do you think have had more FOIA requests being filled out by the American public? You don't think the NTSB should bother to correct their work?

Again, the NTSB makes no mention of errors in heading, altitude, vertical speed, plot, "missing seconds".. etc etc. The only errors they mention are clock annotation and MCP in AA77 data.

 

[apathoid]

It's also interesting to note that the NTSB error for AA1420 was a "heading data" error, and that they note the actual motion/plot of their animation was correct.

"The aircraft motion depicted in the animation is accurate. However, heading data values....are corrected in the updated version."

Actually, that doesn't sound 100% accurate. It's true/magnetic issue.

"...The second change corrects the heading data driving the airplane's direction to true heading values. The heading data used in the previous animation to drive the airplane's direction was based on the magnetic heading recorded on the Solid State Flight Data Recorder (SSFDR). However, the airplane's flight path, heading, and the position of the runway are based on the use of true heading, which is 3 degrees higher than magnetic heading. In both animations, the heading (with localizer and glideslope deviation) instrument display is driven by the magnetic heading data recorded on the SSFDR......"
Link.

In other words, their map wasn't "rotated" on American 1420. Their heading data was wrong.

Well, it's not really a map. There is no image pasted onto the ground as there is in the AA77 animation. The runway at Little Rock is likely imbedded in the software, whereas an aerial image of the Pentagon wouldn't be..


ETA: Gravy beat me. Great minds think alike, eh?

 

[jtribby]

Here it is, from the "Board Meeting" link you posted:
[SIZE=-1][/SIZE]

Yes, again. As the NTSB states, their heading data was inaccurate. Their animation "motion" was not.

 

[Gravy]

"No Comment".

You can listen to the phone call through any google seach of "Phone Call with NTSB"

Well that's lame of them.

So they mention a clock annotation error in their "working copy", but don't mention a magnetic "deviation" error in which they corrected only a small 3 degree error for AA1420? Really?

Swear to god!

Which is more important to correct?

That's a no-brainer. The only important one is the one that was used in an accident investigation.

Which do you think have had more FOIA requests being filled out by the American public? You don't think the NTSB should bother to correct their work?

Oh, I'm quite sure that one at the NTSB anticipated that complete loons would claim that flight 77 didn't hit the Pentagon. I guess they should have taken a lesson from NASA's experience with the no-mooners.

Again, the NTSB makes no mention of errors in heading, altitude, vertical speed, plot, "missing seconds".. etc etc. The only errors they mention are clock annotation and MCP in AA77 data.

Wow, it's almost as if they weren't trying to cover up mistakes and discrepancies in a video that wasn't used for an official purpose!

 

[apathoid]

Yes, again. As the NTSB states, their heading data was inaccurate. Their animation "motion" was not.

Not exactly. The animation was referenced to True North where the aircrafts FDR was reporting magnetic, thats why there was a 3 degree error(magnetic variation). They updated the animation by correcting for the difference bewteen mag and true. They also say the heading shown on the instruments in the animation is still in mag.

This is a very similar issue to what we are talking about Jtribby.

 

[Gravy]

Yes, again. As the NTSB states, their heading data was inaccurate. Their animation "motion" was not.

I guess it wasn't as simple as plugging in the FDR and clicking the mouse a couple of times, as our newcomer states.

 

[beachnut]

"No Comment".

American 77, a plane which reportedly impacted the pentagon on a day which changed the world?

Which do you think have had more FOIA requests being filled out by the American public? You don't think the NTSB should bother to correct their work?

Again, the NTSB makes no mention of errors in heading, altitude, vertical speed, plot, "missing seconds".. etc etc. The only errors they mention are clock annotation and MCP in AA77 data.

The NTSB did not do an investigation, there is not doubt 77 impacted the Pentagon, the NTSB investigates accidents, the FBI does on purpose.

If you have proof 77 did not impact the Pentagon, it is Pulitzer Prize material, you are wasting your time posting here, 77 did hit the Pentagon and all the fringe pilots at Balsamo’s failed farm of math deficient aviators can’t help you.

World changed! What?

There are no errors in heading on 77, sorry, you are making up stuff.

The NTSB was not doing a study on 77’s FDR for missing seconds, there is no real reason to. It was the FBI investigation; after finding the FDR information lines up with the impact (verified by RADAR), and DNA, only the knowledge challenged pilots at p4t can mess up everything about 911. The NTSB does accidents, why would they analyze a crime? The animation is a working copy the Pentagon image is place wrong in the animation. How can a working copy have errors, it is not done. The FDR confirms this, it is easy to see the ground image is not lined up only idiots would use the NTSB animation image as the ground for their delusions. It is funny to see untrained investigators like p4t team CIT mess up 911 so bad. Sad you and p4t, and CIT apologize for terrorist so poorly; when is the Pulitzer Prize for stupid ideas on 911 being handed out. Has CBS turned down your vast hearsay, fantasy conclusions yet? Dan Rather would gladly roast Bush, like most here if you got the goods. But you don’t have anything usable but opinions based on p4t delusions due to faulty math, failed investigation techniques, and pure hate of the government as the best Balsamo can come up with is calling everyone who disagrees with his failed opinions a government loyalist as he can’t even apologize and make it stick for the terrorists.

 

[jtribby]

This is a very similar issue to what we are talking about Jtribby.

I agree. But many claim it is a map rotation with AA77. When in fact it could be a heading data error as was shown in AA1420 (although opposite, as the FDR also plots true). We will never know since the NTSB refuses to comment, nor make a mention of such "errors".

I guess we just have to accept the NTSB distributing "error" filled data through the FOIA. Our tax dollars at work.

And people wonder why the lists grow at organizations such as Pilots For 9/11 Truth, Architects and Engineers For 9/11 Truth, etc etc.

I personally would rather the NTSB correct their work as they have done in the past if in fact there are these errors, like any other scientific professional organization.

 

[jtribby]

The NTSB did not do an investigation,

Google "NTSB Flight Path Study".

There is a whole list of pdf's you can download.

 

[funk de fino]

I agree. But many claim it is a map rotation with AA77. When in fact it could be a heading data error as was shown in AA1420 (although opposite, as the FDR also plots true). We will never know since the NTSB refuses to comment, nor make a mention of such "errors".

I guess we just have to accept the NTSB distributing "error" filled data through the FOIA. Our tax dollars at work.

And people wonder why the lists grow at organizations such as Pilots For 9/11 Truth, Architects and Engineers For 9/11 Truth, etc etc.

I personally would rather the NTSB correct their work as they have done in the past if in fact there are these errors, like any other scientific professional organization.

It was distributed as it was at the time. It was not finished. It was requested by someone else, it was not for a crash investigation.

How did the image of the Pentagon get in that animation?

 

[jtribby]

It was distributed as it was at the time. It was not finished. It was requested by someone else, it was not for a crash investigation.

The NTSB files are dated 2002. The FOIA release wasn't until 2006. In between, there was an investigation and study sourcing such information. They are called the 9/11 Commission Report and the NTSB Flight Path Study.

It is now in the National Security Archives at George Washington University. Many here claim it's filled with errors.

 

[Gravy]

"No Comment".

You can listen to the phone call through any google seach of "Phone Call with NTSB"

jtribby, I just listened to the phone call. It was rather rude of you to not give the reason for the "no comment." The NTSB spokesman clearly explains to that scumbag Canadian Jeff Hill that "We did this work on behalf of another agency, as you know" and that "It is not our investigation. We cannot elaborate beyond that."

 

[funk de fino]

The NTSB files are dated 2002. The FOIA release wasn't until 2006. In between, there was an investigation and study sourcing such information. They are called the 9/11 Commission Report and the NTSB Flight Path Study.

It is now in the National Security Archives at George Washington University. Many here claim it's filled with errors.

And? It was a working copy for someone else. Those investigations and flightpath studies used different information.

 

[Gravy]

jtribby, do you believe that flight 77 hit the Pentagon?