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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

But the SPECIFICATION does not say that data has to be recorded within 500 ms of when the sample was taken. Maybe there is a spec for that, but what you quoted is not it.

Is certification done for a model (in this case the 757-200), or the specific aircraft (N644AA)? The 757-200 was introduced around 1982 I think, and this plane was made in 1991. Maybe you should be finding the specs for certification in 1982 or 1991 instead of 2008.

ED Santana has already confirmed the FDR in AA77 meets the 500 ms standard on or before Sept.11/01

This REQUIREMENT has been around since at least that time, and all
FDR's for commerical use have been built to meet, or exceed that
requirement.

Since Ed Santana's audio testimony and L3 Communications e-mail
exchange is not good enough, I will try to provide a source from
an engineer, or other credible person.

How does that work for you?
 
ED Santana has already confirmed the FDR in AA77 meets the 500 ms standard on or before Sept.11/01

This REQUIREMENT has been around since at least that time, and all
FDR's for commerical use have been built to meet, or exceed that
requirement.

Since Ed Santana's audio testimony and L3 Communications e-mail
exchange is not good enough, I will try to provide a source from
an engineer, or other credible person.

How does that work for you?
Does this mean that you lied about not wanting discussion 22205?
 
Since Ed Santana's audio testimony and L3 Communications e-mail
exchange is not good enough, I will try to provide a source from
an engineer, or other credible person.

How does that work for you?
Well, it was your claim that the 77 FDR was required to store data within 500 ms of the sampling of the data. You seem to think this is important, so we're asking you to support your claim. A phone interview with a salesman at a company who may or may not have made the FDR, talking about current regulations instead of those 17 years ago, doesn't cut it. If it's an important point to you, support it with something more credible, like the specs for the actual unit in N644AA.
 
turbofan said:
incorrect math at P4T, but they have yet to show the
errors, or post corrections.

Even Rob Balsamo himself admits that his math has errors....where have you been?
The corrections to his math were posted by members here when Rob posted his incorrect ones. AFAIK, Rob still hasn't made corrections.
 
Turbofan isn't reading any responses, or at least, he is posting non-responsive "responses." He has, however, stated that he does not have special qualifications to understand what he is talking about. He just keeps saying the same things over and over. What a waste of electrons.
 
Question here ... Turbofan, are you getting your technical information from a salesman, and a set of specifications? Do I understand that correctly? Or are you yourself the salesman?

I'm honestly confused here. I have no pretense to technical knowledge -- though 1/ professionally, I know enough not to take the word of the sales guys on technical matters, and 2/ just from life, I am aware that just retyping specs doesn't mean much.
 
With respect to the data storage delay, my friend, this information TOTALLY proves it!

No, it doesn't. Just because something might be designed in a particular way doesn't mean it actually happened. I'm not saying you are wrong, just that you haven't proven anything. You are relying on how you believe it's designed (and making all sorts of misapplied assumptions in that, as well) and making no effort whatsoever to explain all the other evidence.

As I've said before, this "logic" is equivalent to claiming that OJ couldn't have committed murder because murder is illegal. That doesn't "prove" anything.

- Data is missing in the CSV file
- The Animation stops before impact to the Pentagon wall

That's a pretty significant observation don't you think?
Maybe for you because you have the mistaken belief that either was meant for forensic analysis. The CSV file is simply data generated for the purposes of being easy to plot. The animation's purpose isn't entirely known but it's known to contain numerous errors. It's certain that it wasn't made to be inch-accurate for forensic analysis.

In that light, neither piece of information is significant at all. Neither was meant to be analyzed in the way you are trying to analyze it. That means your analysis is assuming error conditions that simply aren't supported by the data. That means your analysis is flawed. That means it's not terribly significant.

Nothing has been skipped. There is no reason for data to be missing
because there is no reason for the power to be lost to the data recorder
before IMPACT.
Yes, there are numerous steps you have to pretend don't exist. You do this because all of these links in the chain can produce problems in your data and all of them are infinitely more plausible than you desired conclusion: "fabricated data". The data in the memory device didn't magically teleport to your computer.

RADALT is very important because it proves the aircraft was too high
to hit light poles and the Pentagon. Now that is has been extracted
and studied, it sort of takes a bite out of the official story doesn't it?
Yes, you THINK radalt shows this. We understand. We aren't arguing about what the RADALT says (mostly because you've never made the necessary tools available to check your work). We are arguing about what the time slip error is. This is an issue that you people continuously skirt with your "appeal to regulation" and other nonsense. The best part of it all is that you cannot even do that properly.

now that I'm starting to post credible sources for the FDR specs, I see
you're getting a little nervous. I'm not going to stop anything.

You want to debate this with me, let's do it.
Why should I debate with someone who makes stupid analogies and then refuses to stop? Your comparison to car equipment is so incredibly stupid that it makes me think you are incredibly stupid. So I've asked you to stop. Entirely because I'm trying to have a rational conversation with you and it's hard to have a rational conversation with someone making such incredibly inane attempts at logic.

You might also learn the proper internal workings of the FDR system.
Laugh.

I don't give two craps about you, nor your insults. You don't have anything that actually matters: evidence. If all you did was come here to repeat the same tired arguments and troll then I won't be around to talk about it much longer.

Feel free to present something I haven't heard at least 20 times.
 
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ED Santana has already confirmed the FDR in AA77 meets the 500 ms standard on or before Sept.11/01

This REQUIREMENT has been around since at least that time, and all
FDR's for commerical use have been built to meet, or exceed that
requirement.

Since Ed Santana's audio testimony and L3 Communications e-mail
exchange is not good enough, I will try to provide a source from
an engineer, or other credible person.

How does that work for you?

Please stop quoting regulations and L3's design specs on what happens when power is lost. Crashing into a wall is not the same as a power failure.
 
Ok, I re-read some of the arguing that I skipped over the first time and I am really sick of repeating this, so I'm going to pose a question, and maybe from here we can isolate the problem.

The final RADALT reading from your decoding, how much time occurred (or what range of times) between the moment the plane was that high and the plane impacted the Pentagon. Give me a number. And then justify your answer. Was it at most 500ms between the moment the plane was X feet above the ground before impact? Is that your assertion?

And hopefully you've read and understand the original post, because there are -so- many issues I believe you to be completely ignoring (or assuming to be equal to 0 time) that are covered there.
 
crash? What crash? Microsoft designed the OS not to crash on your computer. It's impossible for the computer to crash. You're only getting 30mpg on your car? The manufacturer designed it for 40mpg according to their specs.
 
I haven't read this entire thread, so please excuse this question if it has
already been addressed:

Are you stating that the data recorded in solid state memory was partially
corrupt (specifically the last two seconds?)?

It is stating that it very well could be corrupted

L3 communications certifies their FDR's up to 3400 g's of impact force.

Which means that the contents will not be reduced to mush at as high as 3400 g's, not that 'write' will not screw up the last bit of memory at an impact of 3400 g's

Are you stating that the data recorder selectively re-wrote the last
two seconds of data upon impact ?

Selectively? that would be the vincinity of the most recent write operation.


Would you agree that the data bus and FDR had power at least until the
nose of the plane impacted the Pentagon wall?

Yep and probably working just fine up to that moment. That does not mean anything at all about how impact would affect the last few seconds of recording

Would you agree that serial, multi-plexed data would continue to write
to the FDR solid state memory if one, or more sensors failed?

Yes, and the recorder would have to fill the 'space' with a known error word

What causes 'pressure lag', or data lag at sea level that would not be
realized at 25,000+ feet at 500+ MPH?

That fact that the air is a hell of a lot denser at sea level and that the system was designed to deal with this denser air at a much slower velocity
 
I am still left to wonder why PfT has not provided evidence from the crash of another aircraft showing that the DFDR data is accurate all the way to impact. Surely there is another impact with terrain at high speed that could confirm that the DFDR will work exactly as they specify it "should".

On the detail of altimeter lag , again there may well be another example of a near crash at high speed and low alt in which it could be confirmed that, as they would have us believe, alt readings on the DFDR agree with the physical description of what the plane did. ie. plane clips tree tops and alt shows the plane at 40 ft asl. If plane clipped tree tops and alt shows the plane never lower than 200 feet then something is amis.
 
Wasn't Flight 93's FDR working properly up to the moment of impact? I know it gave data up until close to the time of the crash, that's how we know the engines were running fine and what the plane's attitude was.
 
Wasn't Flight 93's FDR working properly up to the moment of impact? I know it gave data up until close to the time of the crash, that's how we know the engines were running fine and what the plane's attitude was.
Yes it worked/recoreded data just after impact.

http://www.ntsb.gov/info/foia_fri.htm
Here at the reading room at the NTSB you can get a copy of the readout, here.
http://www.ntsb.gov/info/UAL93FDR.pdf
The data files are on the web somewhere, not sure where I got 4 files of the FDR read out in excel readable files. If you need them they are out there, or I can email them if you have to have a copy.

The final altitude on 93 was 2189 feet pressure altitude. At Newark, the field is 18 feet, the pressure altitude at take off was –297. Add 315 to 2189, 2504 feet for last altitude stored. The field was 2400 feet. With a final speed of 487.5 knots, the plane moving at 812 feet per second means the FDR stopped recording data just after impact.

Last mag heading 187, pitch –41.1, bank 142.
 
You guys are quick to demand answers from me, and I'm doing my best
to respond to all of you at once.

I wish the same could be said about most of you in return. I'm still waiting
for answers, diagrams, proof....

With all that said, I'm trying to contact L-3 Communications to get the
specs and confirm their unit was installed on "AA77".

If this is your best I'd hate to see you on a day when you were off your game.
 
So unless you personally see something happen it didn't happen?

He must not believe he was born without pictures I'm inclined to agree. Unless he can show the video he is merely an artifact of the internet.
 
I think I'm done here. Much to the happiness of many I'm sure.

You poor souls have trouble accepting data from salesmen who are relaying
specifications created and adhered to by the engineers of their company.

YOu poor souls would rather insult the messenger than call up and do
personal research on your own.

Great Approach. Have fun living in the dark.

I hope some of you will contact Calum, or other industry professionals
to help you understand what many of these anonymous 'experts' are
trying to feed you.

I can see you have never bought a used car in Houston Texas from a lady car dealer named Juggles.
 
From TSO 124a, newer than 124 we have this dated 8/1/96 about 5 years after 77's airframe flew for the first time.

Flight data recorder systems that are to be so identified and manufactured on or after the date of this TSO must meet the standards set forth in the European Organization for Civil Aviation Electronics (EUROCAE), ED-55

First flight of 77 airframe was 1991.

The FDR in 77, which first flew in 1991, may have to meet ED55 (for a number of reasons), even though the FAA says it may not if manufactured before 1996. It does not change UBL and his terrorist from killing people on 9/11. This does show how truthers are unable to tie anything to their failed ideas.

AS FOR SPECS!!!
Highway, 65 mph, oops, I saw a car going 109 mph, the spec was 65! Does the .5 second mean it can loose data; you mean the unsinkable Titanic was really unsinkable. The FDR is really unable to loose data for more than .5 second!? WHAT!

Titanic sunk, 77 is missing data! Oh my! Apples and Oranges do have things you can compare. Reminds me of the time the Colonel told me I could not walk out of the room on him! My feet were moving, my body was leaving; Oh my, I could walk out, and I did!

Got Specs? Where is the beating the dead horse animated gif? I forgot to tell turbofan this stuff does not change the fact 77 hit the Pentagon, and only want him to stop using hearsay. Why did he fail to post the part of 124, gee, maybe he cant find 124, but I found 124a, 124b, and so much more spec junk at the FAA.

So we have a tangent, which has nothing to do with 9/11, just geek stuff for people like me, and for truthers, another way to disrespect those who died, as they spread doubt with hearsay and lies.
 
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No you have not



Yes



Eh





Completely and utterly wrong. If the pole hits the slats at the front there would be no sensor that would pick it up. If it damages the engine then maybe just the engine sensors would poick up a disturbance. But none of the vib or pressure sensors would have measured it if it hit the wing. Get some edcation before you come here and act so arrogant and try to show you know about aircraft.

Why would there be RPM monitors on the wing?

Why would any bleed air on the wing pick up anything like a pole collision?




See above. None of those sensors would have picked it up. Stop embarrassing yourself.

Reality is too fast for truthers.
 

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