AA77 FDR Data, Explained

[beachnut]

My answer is contained in the link.

I'm not going to jump between threads.

Why does all the data in the FDR match 77 previous 24 to 25 hours of flights. Do you have the data? Have you tried to see if it matches 77 flight history? No. You use the ranting of a failed nut on serial numbers.

If you have wreckage and you have no clue what the aircraft was, you could match the serial numbers to identify the crash. Using evidence, there is no doubt where each missing aircraft crashed, we cheated, we use RADAR, and if you doubt the Passengers existed, we have DNA.

Go ahead, debunk the RADAR, DNA, and the FDR. You can't. 11 years, and you have nonsense.

 

[jaydeehess]

My answer is contained in the link.

I'm not going to jump between threads.

. The mods wanted DFDR discussion in the DFDR discussion threads thus I reminded you where such discussion was taking place.

Dodge noted by me as well.

We can safely assume that you do not wish to, or cannot, discuss the DFDR illustrated flightpath and that your statements concerning its relation to what people here consider the true flightpath are without merit.

 

[wstutt]

I've recently received a reply to my FOIA request to the NTSB to obtain some more FDR files from other incidents involving the same make and model of FDR as was in AAL77. I received two FDR files which are among the four FDR files which I have analysed. I requested nine FDR files in my FOIA request but the NTSB could only find two of them.

Out of the four FDR files which I analysed, only the AAL77 FDR file has Hamming Code and Page Parity errors. As you may remember, it was those errors that caused the NTSB to not decode the last four seconds of data.

One of my reasons for filing the FOIA request was to attempt to determine whether the sort of problem that occurred with the AAL77 FDR file had potentially affected other NTSB investigations so that I could make them aware of that if it was the case.

The other reason was to attempt to find evidence for or against John Farmer's speculation that the AAL77 FDR file may have been deliberately modified to cause the errors. My idea was that finding other FDR files with the same type of error would be make the speculation seem less likely to be true and finding many FDR files without that type of error would be make the speculation seem more likely to be true.

Warren.

 

[beachnut]

I've recently received a reply to my FOIA request to the NTSB to obtain some more FDR files from other incidents involving the same make and model of FDR as was in AAL77. I received two FDR files which are among the four FDR files which I have analyzed. I requested nine FDR files in my FOIA request but the NTSB could only find two of them.

Out of the four FDR files which I analyzed, only the AAL77 FDR file has Hamming Code and Page Parity errors. As you may remember, it was those errors that caused the NTSB to not decode the last four seconds of data.

One of my reasons for filing the FOIA request was to attempt to determine whether the sort of problem that occurred with the AAL77 FDR file had potentially affected other NTSB investigations so that I could make them aware of that if it was the case.

The other reason was to attempt to find evidence for or against John Farmer's speculation that the AAL77 FDR file may have been deliberately modified to cause the errors. My idea was that finding other FDR files with the same type of error would be make the speculation seem less likely to be true and finding many FDR files without that type of error would be make the speculation seem more likely to be true.

Warren.

After the second impact the crashes had a high probability they were crimes. They were crimes. The FDR is not needed to solve a crime.

If there was an accident where the FDR had errors like 77; and the data was deemed necessary; if the NTSB could not decode the data, and needed the data, they could get someone like you to decode the data.

911 was not an inside job, the data was not changed on purpose, and based on the specification required for FDRs, I am surprised more data was not lost, but understand systems and timing has improved past the requirements specified for FDRs.

In this case the FDR information is exactly what 77 did, and following the data ends up the same place the FDR was found, save an aircraft length and some sliding. I thought 4 seconds were missing due to the way the requirement spelled out data collection, or other reason - I did not need to get the data, I knew 77 impacted the Pentagon on 911, and killed people, I know why, how and when - don't need the FDR. It is funny you decoded it and debunk Balsamo who can't do math to save his life.

Good job decoding the FDR. In this case if the NTSB needed the data to solve an accident, they would have someone decode it. NTSB does not do crime and the last 4 to 5 seconds on the FDR are not needed to solve why 77 crashed, the evidence of a poor pilot taking over in flight is in the FDR, and the FDR confirms the plane, as does DNA, and all the darn parts, and RADAR, etc.

It is interesting to destroy the fantasy points Balsamo makes up with your effort, thanks for the rational destruction of a fraud, using programing. Good job

It would be hard to find an accident which the plane impacts a large mass at 488 knots - the massive impact might be one reason the data was messed up, in addition I see problems if the data was being written at impact, not sure of the timing, but there would be some problems.

I need you to program my blu-ray and DVD players to be better data presenters when data is damaged... When are you starting your FDR company?

 

[wstutt]

Thanks beachnut for the kind words.

After the second impact the crashes had a high probability they were crimes. They were crimes. The FDR is not needed to solve a crime.

If there was an accident where the FDR had errors like 77; and the data was deemed necessary; if the NTSB could not decode the data, and needed the data, they could get someone like you to decode the data.

Yes, I am quit sure that the NTSB could have got the last four seconds if they had needed it, they could have asked the FDR manufacturer, L3 Communications, for assistance. As you say though, they didn't need the FDR data to work out why the aircraft crashed.

<snip>

It would be hard to find an accident which the plane impacts a large mass at 488 knots - the massive impact might be one reason the data was messed up, in addition I see problems if the data was being written at impact, not sure of the timing, but there would be some problems.

One of the FDR files I received in my FOIA request was from a crash where there were no survivors. I haven't checked what the impact speed was though.

I need you to program my blu-ray and DVD players to be better data presenters when data is damaged... When are you starting your FDR company?

I use IsoBuster to work on damaged DVDs.

Warren.

 

[Senenmut]

I've recently received a reply to my FOIA request to the NTSB to obtain some more FDR files from other incidents involving the same make and model of FDR as was in AAL77. I received two FDR files which are among the four FDR files which I have analysed. I requested nine FDR files in my FOIA request but the NTSB could only find two of them.

Out of the four FDR files which I analysed, only the AAL77 FDR file has Hamming Code and Page Parity errors. As you may remember, it was those errors that caused the NTSB to not decode the last four seconds of data.

One of my reasons for filing the FOIA request was to attempt to determine whether the sort of problem that occurred with the AAL77 FDR file had potentially affected other NTSB investigations so that I could make them aware of that if it was the case.

The other reason was to attempt to find evidence for or against John Farmer's speculation that the AAL77 FDR file may have been deliberately modified to cause the errors. My idea was that finding other FDR files with the same type of error would be make the speculation seem less likely to be true and finding many FDR files without that type of error would be make the speculation seem more likely to be true.

Warren.

hey warren

do these new ntsb files contain the two fields that pft guys talked about awhile back? we talked about it on page 108 in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6846611&highlight=senenmut#post6846611

from the pft website:

FDR Expert Dennis Cimino further goes on to state:


"t just all comes down to two data fields being zeroed out. no tickee, no laundry. without those, there can... never be any linkage of the FDR to an 'N' number in the F.A.A. registry. not because the 'N' number is in the AC ID field, but the AC ID FIELD number is directly traceable to an N-Number in the F.A.A. registry, and the FLEET ID shows which carrier it went to."

"[T]hose missing, that [data] could come from anywhere..."


"[N]obody flies boxes with that data zero'ed out or missing. without this data in the CPM [Crash Protected Memory], in the preamble, there can be no linkage to an aircraft N-Number."

"I saw that on the first look.... the test person who extracted that data should have seen the NO ACFT ID and NO FLEET ID and said; "oh, this is such bull___t" and then asked his supervisor why they were asking him to decode BULL___T.

 

[wstutt]

Hi Senenmut,

hey warren

do these new ntsb files contain the two fields that pft guys talked about awhile back? we talked about it on page 108 in this thread.

http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6846611&highlight=senenmut#post6846611

from the pft website:

FDR Expert Dennis Cimino further goes on to state:


"t just all comes down to two data fields being zeroed out. no tickee, no laundry. without those, there can... never be any linkage of the FDR to an 'N' number in the F.A.A. registry. not because the 'N' number is in the AC ID field, but the AC ID FIELD number is directly traceable to an N-Number in the F.A.A. registry, and the FLEET ID shows which carrier it went to."

"[T]hose missing, that [data] could come from anywhere..."


"[N]obody flies boxes with that data zero'ed out or missing. without this data in the CPM [Crash Protected Memory], in the preamble, there can be no linkage to an aircraft N-Number."

"I saw that on the first look.... the test person who extracted that data should have seen the NO ACFT ID and NO FLEET ID and said; "oh, this is such bull___t" and then asked his supervisor why they were asking him to decode BULL___T.

Those two fields do not appear in the text headers of any of the FDR files that I have. I have now extracted out the text headers of the FDR files and made them available here.

The text header for AAL77 was also posted by others. Here is a Google search to find them.

I have transcribed some of Dennis Cimino's comments in this video of a talk that he gave on June 17, 2012 at the Vancouver 911 Hearing:
At approximately 03:04 in the video

There are two data fields in the very front end of the file for the flight data recorder when it writes the crash protected memory data in to the memory module that is inside what is called a pig or protected memory encapsulation. I saw that the Aircraft Identification Number and the Fleet Identification Number were zero zero zero zero zero for both of the data fields.

At approximately 08:51 in the video

The reason why I know it came from a bench unit or that it had been on a bench unit at least the data that was in the crash protected memory that I was looking at that I was examining came from a bench unit is that a bench unit does not have aircraft identification in it for a good reason, it is not going on an airplane, so aircraft ID is zero zero zero zero zero. Fleet identification which ties it to the air carrier that it is flying by is also zero zero zero zero zero.

So in that video, he claimed that both fields were zero zero zero zero zero, but none of the text headers of the FDR files that I have actually contain those fields.

Warren.

 

[BCR]

The other reason was to attempt to find evidence for or against John Farmer's speculation that the AAL77 FDR file may have been deliberately modified to cause the errors. My idea was that finding other FDR files with the same type of error would be make the speculation seem less likely to be true and finding many FDR files without that type of error would be make the speculation seem more likely to be true.

Warren.

Great work as usual Warren. Of course my speculation is only one possibility for the anomaly, but it is one that I particularly enjoy. A nice little scenario where Capt'n Booby is out there acting, either wittingly or unwittingly, as an agent of the NWO

 

[beachnut]

... from the pft website:

FDR Expert Dennis Cimino further goes on to state:


...

An expert would know an FDR found in the Pentagon where 77 crashed is the correct FDR. The FDR has 24 to 25 hours of flight the airframe flew, exactly as flown.

The FDR show exactly what 77 did on 911, and it is backed with RADAR, bank for turn, speed, etc.

When Dennis makes up stuff like this to support lies about Flight 77, he is not longer an expert on FDR.

No big deal, but the rules the NTSB lives by are different than the FBI. The FBI does crime and must follow rules for evidence, rights of people, rights of business, etc. The NTSB has priviledge to find the cause of accidents, the rules of evidence are different. In products the NTSB prepares for the FBI, they would follow rules which could be used in court. No big deal but why are you bothered by the lies spewing from a pilot for truth nut; has Dennis been banned yet from Balsamo's delusions are us club?

unlike Cimino and his messenger boy Fetzer (failed physics expert Balsamo)

If you are Balsamo follower, Cimino is out, Lear and aliens on the moon and Mars are in. Hope you don't believe Balsamo or Cimino, they have no clue what is going on; Balsamo sells DVDs of woo, and Cimino is banned for hooking up with fantasy man, no CT is too far out Fetzer? Balsamo's fantasies are nuts, Fetzer is extra credit nuts.

Your/The FDR expert has done is made up his own anomaly to fool people who can't figure out he has nothing.

FDR expert? What a joke. You got a reply from an FDR data expert, who did real work, and you bring fantasy from an FDR expert who does nothing but big talk.

 

[LSSBB]

An expert would know an FDR found in the Pentagon where 77 crashed is the correct FDR. The FDR has 24 to 25 hours of flight the airframe flew, exactly as flown.

The FDR show exactly what 77 did on 911, and it is backed with RADAR, bank for turn, speed, etc.

When Dennis makes up stuff like this to support lies about Flight 77, he is not longer an expert on FDR.

No big deal, but the rules the NTSB lives by are different than the FBI. The FBI does crime and must follow rules for evidence, rights of people, rights of business, etc. The NTSB has priviledge to find the cause of accidents, the rules of evidence are different. In products the NTSB prepares for the FBI, they would follow rules which could be used in court. No big deal but why are you bothered by the lies spewing from a pilot for truth nut; has Dennis been banned yet from Balsamo's delusions are us club?



If you are Balsamo follower, Cimino is out, Lear and aliens on the moon and Mars are in. Hope you don't believe Balsamo or Cimino, they have no clue what is going on; Balsamo sells DVDs of woo, and Cimino is banned for hooking up with fantasy man, no CT is too far out Fetzer? Balsamo's fantasies are nuts, Fetzer is extra credit nuts.

Your/The FDR expert has done is made up his own anomaly to fool people who can't figure out he has nothing.

FDR expert? What a joke. You got a reply from an FDR data expert, who did real work, and you bring fantasy from an FDR expert who does nothing but big talk.

Fetzer is double extra credit now, Nazi nutsy.

 

[MacGyverS2000]

LOL... came across this site again while rummaging through old logs. Seems like the fray I entered over 5 years ago is still raging on, in one form or another.

If anybody needs me, they can find me through info found in posts located in the mid-70's pages.

 

[George 152]

Why does all the data in the FDR match 77 previous 24 to 25 hours of flights. Do you have the data? Have you tried to see if it matches 77 flight history? No. You use the ranting of a failed nut on serial numbers.

If you have wreckage and you have no clue what the aircraft was, you could match the serial numbers to identify the crash. Using evidence, there is no doubt where each missing aircraft crashed, we cheated, we use RADAR, and if you doubt the Passengers existed, we have DNA.

Go ahead, debunk the RADAR, DNA, and the FDR. You can't. 11 years, and you have nonsense.

C'mon. you want him to destroy his fantasy world all by himself... ?

 

[applecorped]

This is resolved?

 

[chris lz]

applecopred, been wondering same. I would love a basic summary, as this subject (refutation of Balsamo) is spread out in very annoyingly fragmented form, both here, and in the few other places it occasionally appears. It's hard to find a comprehensive overview putting it all together. Any volunteers?

 

[jaydeehess]

applecopred, been wondering same. I would love a basic summary, as this subject (refutation of Balsamo) is spread out in very annoyingly fragmented form, both here, and in the few other places it occasionally appears. It's hard to find a comprehensive overview putting it all together. Any volunteers?

Pft made assumptions that the end of recording as noted by NTSB was in fact the moment of impact. It was then shown that the DFDR continued to operate for 4 seconds after last fully and properly encoded data. Much tearing of cloth and gnashing of teeth re: flash memory and buffer and collection times, later....

Stutt & Legge analyzed this portion of recording finding that there were errors in the encoding of the data but that some of this data could be extracted.
While PfT insisted that the end of recording showed the end of full recording was too far and too high to indicate impact they also insisted this ensured no impact.
The Stutt & Legge derived data however, shows data being recorded that is consistent with the commonly accepted flightpath and indeed also with impact.

PfT had made much about the data point showing an open door while it was later found that this sensor was not actually installed in that particular aircraft.

PfT refuses to acknowledge that Stutt and Legge demonstrate that the DFDR matches the so called official flight path.


Stutt & Legge paper

 

[applecorped]

Pft made assumptions that the end of recording as noted by NTSB was in fact the moment of impact. It was then shown that the DFDR continued to operate for 4 seconds after last fully and properly encoded data. Much tearing of cloth and gnashing of teeth re: flash memory and buffer and collection times, later....

Stutt & Legge analyzed this portion of recording finding that there were errors in the encoding of the data but that some of this data could be extracted.
While PfT insisted that the end of recording showed the end of full recording was too far and too high to indicate impact they also insisted this ensured no impact.
The Stutt & Legge derived data however, shows data being recorded that is consistent with the commonly accepted flightpath and indeed also with impact.

PfT had made much about the data point showing an open door while it was later found that this sensor was not actually installed in that particular aircraft.

PfT refuses to acknowledge that Stutt and Legge demonstrate that the DFDR matches the so called official flight path.


Stutt & Legge paper

Thank you. (sorry for delay. I haven't been in these parts for a while)

 

[wstutt]

Referring back to this post I wrote about Dennis Cimino, I am including here my comments on this video of a talk given by Dennis Cimino on June 17, 2012 at the Vancouver 911 Hearing:


At approximately 03:04 in the video

There are two data fields in the very front end of the file for the flight data recorder when it writes the crash protected memory data in to the memory module that is inside what is called a pig or protected memory encapsulation. I saw that the Aircraft Identification Number and the Fleet Identification Number were zero zero zero zero zero for both of the data fields.

At approximately 08:51 in the video

The reason why I know it came from a bench unit or that it had been on a bench unit at least the data that was in the crash protected memory that I was looking at that I was examining came from a bench unit is that a bench unit does not have aircraft identification in it for a good reason, it is not going on an airplane, so aircraft ID is zero zero zero zero zero. Fleet identification which ties it to the air carrier that it is flying by is also zero zero zero zero zero.

So in that video, he claimed that both fields were zero zero zero zero zero, but none of the text headers of the FDR files that I have actually contain those fields.


At approximately 07:11 in the video

One of the more striking things that I found when I did the analysis is that the boot strapping sequence inside this entire 24 hour data record was incorrect.

There are actually more than 40 hours of data in the FDR file.

At approximately 08:31 in the video

These power on sequences were not there and there were too many of them.

There are power on sequences when the FDR was powered up when the engines were started before each flight. If the power sequences were not there, how can there be too many of them?

At approximately 10:57 in the video

And if you're not aware of the fact that the government asserts that none of the flight data recorders for the other three aircraft were recovered, we'll get in to that maybe at the very end of my speech.

The government asserted that the flight data recorder was also recovered for Flight 93. Pilots for 9/11 Truth have a decode of it and I also decoded it.

Warren.

 

[pgimeno]

At approximately 08:31 in the video

These power on sequences were not there and there were too many of them.

There are power on sequences when the FDR was powered up when the engines were started before each flight. If the power sequences were not there, how can there be too many of them?

Kettle logic^WP?