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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

What? File, Open, Click? :rolleyes:

Maybe manipulating the data to change the altimeter on descent?
Like I said, there are other parameters to be put in as well. Have you confirmed with the NTSB that the working copy is supposed to be completely accurate?
 
As been pointed out, the data goes into a buffer first. If the power interrupt or impact occurs before that data goes into protected memory, it's lost.

Then let's say there's a total of one second lost in this scenario.

Some sensors are updating at least every second as seen in the file.

So NOW , what's your excuse for the TWO SECONDS missing? :rolleyes:
 
Like I said, there are other parameters to be put in as well. Have you confirmed with the NTSB that the working copy is supposed to be completely accurate?

Confirm what?! There are errors, they are proven! PFT has decoded
RAD ALT, and corrected the errors of the animation!

How can you ALL sit here and base your arguements on the Animation
if you KNOW and clearly admit it's not accurate?!

All of your theories and assumptions are useless. The file and corrections
made by PFT show without a doubt that AA77 did not hit the Poles,
or Pentagon!
 
What? File, Open, Click? :rolleyes:

Just because you think you can imagine how the animations are generated doesn't make it true. You and pft mythical "file/open -> automatic magical inch-perfect animation reconstruction" program doesn't exist. Pointing out errors in the animation isn't interesting. Stop pretending it is. The animation isn't a perfect reconstruction of the flight path nor the data because a human made it for a particular purpose.

BTW, I am STILL waiting for you to answer and justify the SIMPLEST question about your interpretation of the data. We are up to 3x ignores.

Tell me how much time passed between the moment the plane was at height X until impact, where X is the final RADALT reading. Justify your answer.

I am trying to explain to you why you and PFT are completely wrong about the FDR data but you cannot be bothered to stop repeating yourself and your tired talking points long enough to answer a simple question.
 
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Just because you think you can imagine how the animations are generated doesn't make it true. You and pft mythical "file/open -> automatic magical inch-perfect animation reconstruction" program doesn't exist.

BTW, I am STILL waiting for you to answer and justify the SIMPLEST question about your interpretation of the data. We are up to 3x ignores.

Tell me how much time passed between the moment the plane was at height X until impact, where X is the final RADALT reading. Justify your answer.

I am trying to explain to you why you and PFT are completely wrong about the FDR data but you cannot be bothered to stop repeating yourself and your tired talking points long enough to answer a simple question.

I already POSTED my answer above? Look again! I posted a link and
cell locations from my copy of the CSV file. Check your copy to verify
the cell numbers and data stored.

Some of you are using the 1.5 DME recorded to say the aircraft stopped recording at that point. Well.... no.. not according to the NTSB. The NTSB shows 2 more seconds of recorded data for ALL parameters AFTER the 1.5 DME was recorded. How does that fit in with Beachnuts "bitrate"?

It DOES NOT! YOU LOSE.

You and pft mythical "file/open -> automatic magical inch-perfect animation reconstruction" program doesn't exist.

An manipluated change in altitude, and errors of hundreds of feet above
the pole (NOT inch accurate) is a clear sign you have no idea. YOU LOSE.
 
Confirm what?! There are errors, they are proven! PFT has decoded
RAD ALT, and corrected the errors of the animation!

How can you ALL sit here and base your arguements on the Animation
if you KNOW and clearly admit it's not accurate?!

All of your theories and assumptions are useless. The file and corrections
made by PFT show without a doubt that AA77 did not hit the Poles,
or Pentagon!
What part of WORKING COPY AND NOT FINAL PRODUCT are you completely unable to understand. Anybody in the real world that has dealt with animation would know that a working copy will have inaccuracies. What software did Leaders that Lie use to decode the RAD ALT information? Is this the same that NTSB uses? If so, provide proof.
 
As for the banning, you were given warnings, and asked several times to provide sources for your data. YOu did not.

Which data did I fail to provide sources for? (I expect a dodge in 3...2...)

I was issued one erroneous warning by Rob, which he retracted. That warning had nothing to do with sourcing claims, and neither did the ban. (See quote in my previous post from the mod who issued the ban)

The posts are still available
for anyone herecurrent pft members to review. I know first hand as you and I had exchanges
in several threads.

Fixed that for you

If you read through the replies of this thread, you can't possible say that I have been treated in a polite manner. Just look at all of the insults coming from several members.

Which posts, in particular, are you referring to?

Members here are expected to abide by the same rules which you are, and (unlike PFT) the rules here are applied to everyone regardless of what they believe.
 
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What part of WORKING COPY AND NOT FINAL PRODUCT are you completely unable to understand. Anybody in the real world that has dealt with animation would know that a working copy will have inaccuracies. What software did Leaders that Lie use to decode the RAD ALT information? Is this the same that NTSB uses? If so, provide proof.


Hey, can you make that text a bit bigger? I can't see it! :rolleyes:

Buddy, have you viewed the CSV file? If so, tell me what values are
at:

Cell C17

Cell H42

What part of AIRPLANE RECORDED INFORMATION RELEASED TO THE
PUBLIC SHOWS THAT THE PLANE DIDN"T HIT THE PENTAGON DO
YOU AND OTHERS FAIL TO UNDERSTAND!?

Working copy, or not! A working copy would still contain sensor
reading within their tolerances.

A working copy of animation would not contain a MAN MANIPULATED
error of altitude!
 
A working copy would still contain sensor
reading within their tolerances.

A working copy of animation would not contain a MAN MANIPULATED
error of altitude!

Do you have sources for either of these claims or are they arguments from personal incredulity?
 
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Confirm what?! There are errors, they are proven! PFT has decoded
RAD ALT, and corrected the errors of the animation!

How can you ALL sit here and base your arguements on the Animation
if you KNOW and clearly admit it's not accurate?!

All of your theories and assumptions are useless. The file and corrections
made by PFT show without a doubt that AA77 did not hit the Poles,
or Pentagon!


And yet everyone onboard Flight 77 died when the plane hit the Pentagon.
 
I already POSTED my answer above? Look again! I posted a link and
cell locations from my copy of the CSV file. Check your copy to verify
the cell numbers and data stored.

I've looked repeatedly, nowhere have you answered my question. Maybe you haven't read my question clearly enough. Do I need to repeat for the 4th time? Give me a number please and explain how you arrived at that number. It shouldn't be this difficult for me to get you to explain how you arrived at the most important number in your entire theory.. and yet you seem to be struggling mightily.

An manipluated change in altitude, and errors of hundreds of feet above
the pole (NOT inch accurate) is a clear sign you have no idea. YOU LOSE.
There is exactly 0 evidence of manipulation of the data. Especially not for the purposes of deception. None. Zero. Zilch. I've tried to explain it to you but you are incapable of conducting a conversation instead just changing the subject and repeating yourself, largely ignoring everything I've said.

When get up the guts to discuss the issues, you know where to find me. It starts and ends with the question you've dodged 3 times? 4 times? I'm already losing count.
 
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I don't think Turbo is ever gonna get it. And now his claim is basically that someone offered bother the rough working copy animation (which he somehow thinks is supposed to be some kind of perfect exact representation of the data file instead of a quick animation thrown together for example purposes) and the data file and intentionally changed one but not the other?

So these guys pulled off this conspiracy that was so much more advanced than anything mankind has ever pulled off in history, but yet they simpl were too dumb to alter both the rough animation and the data file itself? They simply couldn't figure that one out, while having no problem being able to fake a fly over in front of 1000s of people while setting off charges that suck debris inward at the exact moment without damaging the plane and planting the bodies of the passengers from the real plane at the scene at the exact movement of the impact and knocking down light poles in front of oncoming traffic with no one noticing?

The is what PFT has come up with? And they don't understand why they are laughed at? I have asked 3 or 4 times for Turbo to explain what happened but he will always ignore that because he doesn't have a case. Instead all he and the other clowns at PFT can do is try to find one oddity in the real research and try to use it to dismiss all other evidence. Thus making them a clown circus.
 
Hey, can you make that text a bit bigger? I can't see it! :rolleyes:

Buddy, have you viewed the CSV file? If so, tell me what values are
at:

Cell C17
-.0002
blank. What does the data in cells K37806-37809 show?
What part of AIRPLANE RECORDED INFORMATION RELEASED TO THE
PUBLIC SHOWS THAT THE PLANE DIDN"T HIT THE PENTAGON DO
YOU AND OTHERS FAIL TO UNDERSTAND!?
What part of YOU HAVE BEEN SHOWN TO BE WRONG OVER AND OVER AGAIN are you failing to understand?
Working copy, or not! A working copy would still contain sensor
reading within their tolerances.

A working copy of animation would not contain a MAN MANIPULATED
error of altitude!
You have yet to prove that it is a "man manipulated" error. So you premise is false. A working copy has much larger tolerances and supposed to be a reasonable approximation, not a completely accurate depiction of the data. Basically, somebody at the NTSB created the animation to show the basic flight path of FLT 77 and what the pilot was doing. Relying on it for forensic study is just plain stupid, or desperate.
 
Alright, against my better judgement, I'm gonna lay out the reasoning of PfT and their cohorts, and why they are wrong, and why what they believe cannot be true.

Here is the "equation" for the time-slip error for the last measurement X of some event until impact:

T0: The time at which an event actually occurs (plane is X feet above ground)
T1: The time it takes from T0 for an instrument to generate a measurement
T1.5: The time it takes for that measurement to be digitally buffered at the recorder (this is effectively 0, so it can be ignored)
T2: The time it takes from T1 for the measurement to be included in the bit-stream. This is the time that the measurement remains in the buffer waiting for his turn to enter the bitstream.
T3: The time it takes from T2 for the measurement to be written to the media. This is the time it takes to encode the bitstream, compress it, and store it
T4: The time from T3 for when that sub-frame is "completed" on the media, ie, you have a "complete" sub-frame
T5: The time from T4 when data was lost for whatever reason (any and all missing sub-frames, including the impact one)

T1 you could get from the RADALT's datasheet. T2 can be estimated in the worst case easily. T3 comes from the spec of the recorder. T4 would be known via the data frame layout. T5 is the most difficult to estimate.

So, the equation that tells us how long a measurement was "accurate" until the impact is T1 + T2 + T3 + T4 + T5.

Turbofan has argued that T1 + T2 + T3 + T4 + T5 < 500ms because of regulation and an L3 salesperson telling him so:

What would be a typical time lag between the sensor signal being
generated (for example aileron angle) and the data being logged to the
protected memory of the recorder?

L-3 Response: Per ED55, it shall not exceed 0.5 seconds,
The question, as posed, essentially asks what is the answer of T2 + T3. That means Turbofan is already wrong as this 500ms does not represent T1 + T2 + T3 + T4 + T5. At best, it represents only T2 + T3. How long from when it is generated, sits in the buffer, and makes it onto the media. And the answer that comes back is 0.5 seconds.

I do not have a copy of ED-55 but I will bet money that ED-55 does not say what this alledged L-3 person has claimed, namely, that T2 + T3 < 500ms

I am willing to do this because I can demonstrate it trivially by proving that T2, alone, can be longer than 500ms. T2 being the maximum time a measurement might wait in the digital buffer. This can be proven as follows...

NTSB said:
The output is a continuous sequence of four-second data frames. Each frame consists of four sub-frames..."

What that means is that a parameter sampled once per frame (once every 4 seconds) can sit in the digital buffer up to T2 = 4 seconds. 4 seconds > 500ms. Now, RADALT I believe was sampled every second, so for RADALT this number (T2) is 1 second. Please note that 1 second > 500 milliseconds. So unless one of the steps requires negative amounts of time, T2 + T3 cannot be less than 500 ms.

If you were to look up the actual regulation in ED-55 my suspicion is that it would say that ONLY T3 alone < 500ms. That means from the moment the sample leaves the buffer and enters the bitstream, it is recorded within 500ms. THIS PARAGRAPH IS JUST PURE SPECULATION. But I have absolutely no doubt that what the L-3 person has allegedly said, in response to the precise question, is not true.

If anyone has a copy of ED-55 and wants to look it up, let me know what you find.


ALL THAT BEING SAID:
Turbofan and others still conviently IGNORE T1, T4, and T5 as if they do not exist. As far as they are concerned, the RADALT generates measurements instantaneously (it might) and that _zero_ frames were lost at the end of the recording due to all the things that happen between dumping the data and storing it into computer files. Like, for example, loss of frames because of synch word corruption, and removal of partial frames, and whatever else might have happened.

I can't tell you how long T5 is but I can tell you that PfT and Turbofan are assuming it is 0 and have provided no justification for that belief, at all.

They keep quoting a regulation that pertains to, at BEST, T2 and T3, and pretending it applies to T5. It doesn't.
 
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In all my lurking technical ignorance, I actually understood that. Thanks Anti-sophist!
 
Hey, can you make that text a bit bigger? I can't see it! :rolleyes:

Buddy, have you viewed the CSV file? If so, tell me what values are
at:

Cell C17

Cell H42

What part of AIRPLANE RECORDED INFORMATION RELEASED TO THE
PUBLIC SHOWS THAT THE PLANE DIDN"T HIT THE PENTAGON DO
YOU AND OTHERS FAIL TO UNDERSTAND!?

Working copy, or not! A working copy would still contain sensor
reading within their tolerances.

A working copy of animation would not contain a MAN MANIPULATED
error of altitude!
The altimeter is showing PRESSURE ALTITUDE. The data is not presented wrong.

The data ends, the plane is correctly depicted, the Pentagon is rotated the wrong direction for variation, you have no idea what you are doing!



Working copy, read how the NTSB uses animation. The animation gives ACCIDENT investigators an idea of the plane's dynamics, and it is not used to show where the plane went. There is no data in the plane to place the aircraft closer to where it was than 2000 to 4000 feet! You are not understanding this issue, and the fact is has nothing to do with the terrorist who did it! 77 hit the Pentagon, you believe in false information and fantasy.

6 years, and you have no rational conclusions on 9/11?
 
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If you were to look up the actual regulation in ED-55 my suspicion is that it would say that ONLY T3 alone < 500ms.
The part of the regulation that TF quoted here merely said that the time between power-up of the FDR and when it starts recording data is less than 500 ms. I still have not seen any spec about the minimum time to write any data. Either it's somewhere else in that spec, or TF misunderstood the part of the spec he was reading.

But surely a pffft person wouldn't misunderstand a piece of data!
 
What? File, Open, Click?
Maybe manipulating the data to change the altimeter on descent?

Here again is the video showing the calcs. I support it 100%
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8467167311585730947&hl=en

My support for this is:

- Cell DD, 37798 shown in the CSV file supplied by the NTSB

- The obvious cover up and error in the altitude shown in the animation

- The finding of RAD Altitude by PFT showing 273 feet AGL

Approx. 8000 FT linear descent rate to kiss the top of the light poles?!

When do I start laughing?

The video was a laugh. It proves you are gullible, but that is it, it has no value to 9/11.

That is the tabular file, not the CSV file. It shows 1.5 DME, the DME is posted every four seconds. This is proof the DME is stored. That is all. Note, the DME the NTSB is rounded up and down differently than the decode by p4t decode by… No big deal.

There is not cover-up error in the WORKING COPY animation by the NTSB, they are not the lead agency on the CRIMINAL investigation. BTW, terrorist were found to be the cause of 77 impacting the Pentagon. You have not proven otherwise, but you have exposed your lack of knowledge, you were doing better a day ago.

The RADAR altimeter looks like it matches the animation being up in the sky at the last second, but then the NTSB can decode more data than the p4t source who rounds numbers differently. BTW, the p4t source proves the data was from N644AA! All 25 hours of flight data, from N644AA. So you have proven to me the FDR was really from N644AA. Good job, at least while you pursue fantasy, you leave a trail proving the terrorist hit the Pentagon with 77 without giving up your failed ideas. Wait till you find you are wrong, you will have to change your username and hide.

77 was descending as fast as 100 feet per second, and since you have no idea where 77 was, there is no way to say it takes 8000 feet per second to hit the posts, that could be a lie, but since the terrorist could do 6000 feet per second, the last push over could have easily reached 8000 feet per second, and hit the Pentagon side, how knows where Hani was aiming, he could have missed by a lot! If you look at certain parameters, he sucked as a pilot, not that he needed to be smooth, but only the p4t can't hit building from the safety of a simulator, whereas 3 out of four terrorist pilots can do it their first time in a real jet, the p4t have been in real jets (some) and still can't hit a building; hope that is not indicative of there making it to a runway! Talk about laughing, p4t tell people this! They can't fly jets into buildings. But terrorist did. Looks like p4t are bad at resaved, and can't fly as well as terrorist. Why? Even the terrorist know 77 hit the Pentagon, sad for what that means in you case!

Why not laugh now, you have blamed unknown people for a cover-up in murder, but have zero evidence, you are sick.

Too high to hit the posts it hit!? This means you believe a video that lies. And all because you and p4t use a working copy with the Pentagon rotated the wrong direction by magnetic variation, placing it 17 to 18 degree off, as your smoking gun to say, 77 was too high to hit the post people saw 77 hit on 9/11.

Real good logic, use a working copy as your fact, and ignore the physical evidence and the people who saw 77 hit the lamp posts. Good job.
You have made up stuff, it make your ideas a failure. p4t make up ideas, you believe them. p4t ban people because they prove them wrong. When will Balsamo fix the 11.2 G error, if you knew physics you would be laughing at Rob's error, do you understand physics or math? http://pilotsfor911truth.org/descent_rate031308.html Made up false ideas. The p4t way of doing business, fooled you and others even buy the DVDs of false no theory dumb downed junk. It does sell, and you are proof there is a market, people like blaming others for things they can't udnerstand even simple stuff like, cut throat, take plane, hit building, kill people! It that too simple for you? It had to be simple, the terrorist were not very good pilots, but they do know what happen on 9/11, you don't.

What is you next made up item?
 
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