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AA77 FDR Data, Explained

I would assume that WeedWacker was the gardener. The pool boy would be HoseWacker.

LOL, I am a little slow on the insults this morning...thanks for the correction.

thinkingcat:

Welcome to the JREF Forum on Conspiracy theories. All opinions are allowed, if not accepted. Debating in here can be intense at times, but all is fair in...you know the rest.

TAM
 
Hey Weedwacker,

President Bush told me to tell you to tell JDX to stop digging for answers or else! That's right, he'll totally stop being his friend on Myspace.com!
 
Actually, the "traditional" meaning of "word" is the data size that a system was designed to handle natively.

Yeah, i just reread my message and noticed that too. I think really meant "common usage". or maybe current usage.

Also I agree this is correct usage, however a common CT tactic is to use one definition of a term in the dictionary as the only possible definition and if you don't conform to that you're wrong. To nip the argument "this guy doesn't even know what a word is, therefore his whole paper is wrong" I think an explanation that you know the common usage but are using this definition because would shut that down.
 
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I am the only one getting really sick of this guy talking about JDX in the third person?

I am! I have sent a PM to WW asking him to provide the link from Flightinfo's board. The one that started his brush w/JDX. He keeps avoiding this. Hmmmm!
I smell feet!
 
11. What is the exact chain of custody of the FDR? What date/time was it found? Where exactly was it found? Please provide documentation and names.

Found the following at pentagonresearch.com.

Pentagonresearch said:
"Somewhere in that massive pile of rubble lay two mangled metal containers that might reveal what happened aboard American Airlines Flight 77 in the minutes before terrorists crashed it into America's military headquarters. As a cockpit voice recorder analyst for the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB), it was Cushman's job to help locate the airplane's black boxes, as the voice and data recorders that all airliners carry are known informally. It was the first crash site she'd visited.

"Over the next few days, working the 3 p.m. to morning shift, she and several other NTSB experts struggled to separate airplane parts from office parts. Early on the morning of Sept.14, while Cushman was at the site, the cockpit voice recorder, or CVR, was found. It was quickly transported across the Potomac to the NTSB lab in Washington, D.C., where Cushman works with three other analysts, and its data was downloaded.

"Ordinarily, that would have been just the start of Cushman's association with the device, but this time, it was the end. The events of Sept. 11 had already been classified as criminal acts, rather than accidents, so the FBI, which has its own forensic audio lab, took charge of the box and its data.

That's also why Cushman can't say much more about her role in that investigation, or about the work she did on the recorders recovered from Flight 93, which plowed into a field in Pennsylvania after passengers apparently thwarted another hijacking. Like the Pentagon CVR, the black box from that plane came to NTSB only for the extraction of its data before being turned over to the FBI". http://www.wpi.edu/News/Transformations/2002Spring/hear.html

"FBI Director Robert Mueller said Friday that the agency has gotten information from the flight data recorder recovered in the crash of American Airlines Flight 77, which slammed into the Pentagon. He declined to say what information the FBI received from the recorder, which tracks an airplane's flight movements for the last 25 hours. He said the agency had not gotten any information from the voice data recorder from Flight 77". http://www.sptimes.com/News/091501/Worldandnation/FBI_analyzing_voice__.shtml

"Early Friday morning, shortly before 4 a.m., Burkhammer and another firefighter, Brian Moravitz were combing through debris near the impact site. Peering at the wreckage with their helmet lights, the two spotted an intact seat from the plane's cockpit with a chunk of the floor still attached. Then they saw two odd-shaped dark boxes, about 1.5 by 2 feet long. They'd been told the plane's "black boxes" would in fact be bright orange, but these were charred black. The boxes had handles on one end and one was torn open. They cordoned off the area and called for an FBI agent, who in turn called for someone from the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) who confirmed the find: the black boxes from AA Flight 77." http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3069699/

"Pentagon officials said the recorders, also called "black boxes" were found around 3:40 a.m. under mounds of wreckage in the collapsed part of the building, where only a few pieces of the plane remain."
(The Washington Times September 15, 2001, Saturday, Final Edition Section: Part C; Metropolitan Pg. C1)
 
For weedwacker, you may kindly inform your bosom buddy JDX that his questions are out of order. We've shown his computation to be in error. Thus far, it is plausible for the FDR to be consistent with the witness statements, debris, and official theory. His questions can be answered thusly, unless he can show otherwise. In short, he needs to fix his theory.

For Anti-sophist, nice job. Right on the mark. One thing you might want to look into as well, I don't know this for sure, but I have read that crash FDR's deliberately withhold the last couple seconds of data in an effort to avoid corrupting the record with an incomplete write cycle. Not sure how that works, I haven't worked with crash FDR's either, but maybe you can find something.
 
First, thanks for all the typo gets, and pedalogical weaknesses. I'll fix them.

Also, poring over the .csv file, it looks to me like each item is recorded just once in each one-second subframe. In a previous thread you referred to the FDR having a minor frame rate of 8 Hz and a major frame rate of 1 Hz, but here you call them out as 1 Hz and 1/4 Hz respectively, which seems to agree with the NTSB report's reference to a four-second frame containing four one-second subframes.

Well, my original guess was 1 second major frames, and 1/8 second minor frames. That was due to the fact that 1 second was the lowest period of sampling, and 1/8 was the highest. After looking at the file more carefully, some values are, in fact, sampled as low as 1/4 HZ (or once every 4 seconds), so 4 second major frame seems plausible.

Minor frames, strictly speaking, are just the distance of synch words in your data. Effectively, it is the "quantum" or error-checkable data. If a single bit goes, the most data you will lose is a minor frame. I guessed they would do it at 8hz due to 8hz sampling, but I was wrong. They only do it at 1hz.

I've sat and counted fields in the .csv file until my brain hurt, but bless me if I can see an easily identifiable quantity, like vertical, longitudinal and lateral accelerations, which are recorded at the top of each subframe, being recorded more often than once per second. That has me kind of confused; even if I were a CTer I can't see how I would get to claiming 1/8 second precision.
V.Acc is sampled 8 times per second according to the CSV file I have. It's in the first column. Maybe we have different ones?


Weedwacker--

I guess the NTSB went through all the trouble to make an animation in error along with the csv?
Short answer:
To show laypeople what the flight looked like within 99.9% accuracy? Why do you demand 99.9999% accuracy?

Long answer:
What's the data source? You seem to think it was the CSV file. If that' sso, it is already flawed in terms of to-the-millisecond-and-foot accuracy. Maybe it was done that way for expediency? Maybe 99.9% is good enough? What's the precision of this animation? What are the error thresholds? What was the metholdolgy?

The animation is a reconstruction done by an engineer. He made an animation that was reasonably accurate to show the big picture, not be precise down to the millisecond or the foot. If he wanted to make a foot-and-millisecond precise animation, he'd need to correct for ALL the errors I've explained, and that would be virtually impossible for someone to do without a massive scientific effort justifying all sorts of assumptions, and even then, it would be assailable on a number of scientific fronts.

As far as I'm concerned, the animation is of little value beyond the actual data given, because it's non-repeatable. I don't know any of the parameters it was constructed with. It has built-in assumptions that aren't stated. I've already pointed out a number of errors in the underlying data for to-the-millisecond-and-foot precision, so I see no reason to expect that the animation, based on that data, would be any more precise.

1. What is the True Altitude at end of data recording :44. How did you come to your conclusion.
What does "end of data recording :44" mean? What time, specifically? The end of the 44th second? What was the pressure altitude at :45.00? Is that the question? Let me ask a different question? Why is that important? Are you assuming that's the time of the crash? That would be a mistake.

I'll answer, anyway...

The presssure altitiude recorded during the :44 frame is 173. In the worst case, this was measured at around :43.50 or :43.00 (depending on the sampling rate from the ADC to DAU). In the best case, this was measured at :44.99.

That gives us a measured pressure altitude somehwere between 173 and 173 - 2seconds * descent rate (in foot per second). JDX likes to quote '66 feet per second' as the descent rate. He gets this by subtracted the pressure altitude from the :43 and :44 frames. Using the same logic, in the worst case, these were actually measured at :42.00 and :43.00. We cannot use this as the average descent rate between :44.00 and :45.00 for obvious reasons, unless we assume no acceleration (a false assumption). The moment you try to introduce V.Acc to compensate, you need to now account for simultaenity errors to over come this.

This answer is intractably difficult to answer to with any certainty given the time-error introduced by basing our calculations on the CSV file. The only definitive answer to this questions is that, given only the CSV data, it's intractibly difficult to answer this question definitively.

Once you've made all your assumptions about simultaenity and acceleration, and come up with a calculation, you can then begin to think about correcting your answer for instrument error in the altimeter, due to lagging because pressure differentials and all that.

2. What is the vertical speed at end of data recording :44. How did you come to your conclusion.
3. What is the Absolute Altitude and end of data recording? How did you come to your conclusion.
See #1. I need the answer to #2 to be able to figure out #1, anyway. I have too many variables, and not enough data, to answer these questions definitely.

4. Why does the csv file show the altimeter being set in the baro cor column on the descent through FL180, but the animation altimeter does not show it being set?
"Appeal to animation" fallacy.

5. Why do the current G Forces for the last minute of data correspond to the changes in vertical speed...
First of all, they don't. I've already provided the graph to show that the two pieces of data ARE NOT simultaenous as shown in the file.
http://img134.imageshack.us/my.php?image=jdxdelayfn9.png

Therefore, the premise of your question is already false, but I shall proceed anyway...

yet at end of data :44-:45 it shows an increase in vertical speed never accounting for any type of level off to be level with the lawn as shown in the DoD video?
Your assumption that the time frame :44-:45 represents the final second of flight 77 is false. :44-:45 represents the last completed frame in the data. The G forces on the plane during the trip across the lawn are most certainly not the ones shown in the CSV final's data frame.

6. Do you have any video showing a clear impact and/or of the plane on its approach to impact?
Nope.

7. Why does your animation show a flight path north of the reported flight path?
My animation? I assume you mean NTSB's animation. I can't answer that question, you should ask them.

8. Why are there no system indication of any impact with any object up to and after :44?
Since the :44 frame is the last completed frame, the CSV data "runs out" before the plane actually hits the pentagon. We don't know how many more frames (and partial frames) were recorded, but at least 1 partial frame was. Therefore, the data you are looking for didn't happen in the time range of the data given.

9. Why does the csv file and animation show a right bank when the official report requires a left bank to be consistent with physical damage to the generator?
You are assuming an impact time and simulatenity issues that you have no justification to be assuming. The data you are looking for isn't in the CSV file, to the best of estimatation. The CSV file ends before this data would have been there.

10. How did you come to the conclusion of 09:37:45 as the official impact time?
09:37:45 to what precision... 09:37:45 in reference to whom? The onflight data recorder? Was it GPS synched? When was the last GPS synch? If so, which IRIG GPS time was it synching to? IRIG-B? H? G? (look em up) If it wasn't GPS synced, then in reference to who? The FDR? Greenich Mean Time? The Naval Observatory?

In fact, I'd say it's highly unlike that 09:37:45.00 is even close to the impact time, according to the FDRs clock. More than likely the actual impact time was at some point in the next two seconds.

The NTSB set the time of impact to 09:37:45.00 because within a second or two, it's correct. I doubt very seriously they spent time trying to properly synch the FDR ex post facto with the Naval Observatory, in order to give an exact time so that amatuer forsensic analysis of the FDR could be successful.

11. What is the exact chain of custody of the FDR? What date/time was it found? Where exactly was it found? Please provide documentation and names.
Answered above.

12. Why does the hijack timeline show a 3 min interval for hijacking to take place? Why did Capt Burlingame not follow protocol for the Common Strategy prior to 9/11?
Outside of my expertise and knowledge. I can't answer that.
 
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Anti-sophist said:
...removed all the intelligent analysis that zoomed right over JDX's head...

Very nice work AS. I can see JDX congratulating himself and wiping his brow of sweat for having you banned at LC in the nick of time, cause he's clearly shot his wad as it relates to this analysis and is once again reduced to JAQs.

JDX is rapidly self destructing. I expect the next squib we see in the NYC area will be his head exploding. (Note to JDX, that wasn't a threat, it was a figure of speech).
 
As someone who is near completion of their M.S. in Electrical Engineering, I don't think anyone could have made a better explanation. Very well done.

I usually don't like to make assumptions, but I think people here who relate weedwacker to JDX are spot on. I have read alot of posts by JDX and the posting style between the two is eerily similar. JDX likes to post and repost his "findings" in every forum at LC wherever he gets the chance. If you look at the post made by "weedwacker" shown (partially) below (posted above).

If the csv file is off, the animation produced by the NTSB must be off as well.

Why would the NTSB provide an animation of the flight in error?

...
...

You can see this was actually posted in numerous places on LC.

s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=12995
s15.invisionfree.com/Loose_Change_Forum/index.php?showtopic=16778

I am sure you will see this same post 100 more times as time passes.

Anyway, I just wanted to express my appreciation for your time and effort.
 
Qubit:

I am the UNOFFICIAL welcoming party (no wisecracks Dog Town), so welcome to the JREF Forum on Conspiracy Theories. All opinions here are allowed, but no necessarily accepted. If your gonna bring your views, better be prepared to back it up with evidence, as the guys here will call you (and anyone for that matter) on it.

TAM:D
 
Qubit:

I am the UNOFFICIAL welcoming party (no wisecracks Dog Town), so welcome to the JREF Forum on Conspiracy Theories. All opinions here are allowed, but no necessarily accepted. If your gonna bring your views, better be prepared to back it up with evidence, as the guys here will call you (and anyone for that matter) on it.

TAM:D

Hi TAM! Thanks alot! I lurk here alot and love all the work you and others do (Gravy, AS, Chipmunk Stew, etc). I hope I can add knowledge to the site and learn from each of you in turn. Thanks again!
 
only love man...only love...lol

TAM

Edit: sorry, but that was my best at urbanspeak...lol
 
And a good alternate spelling for bruddah is bruvva. And it doesnt hurt to add a "yo" at the end of a sentence every now and again.

Yes bruudah is more Hawiian slang, pidgeon! But there was no hi, in the sentence, hence no yo!
 
Why did Capt Burlingame not follow protocol for the Common Strategy prior to 9/11?
You mean like this?
JohnDoeX on LC Forum said:
If hes trying to take over my ship. .and all he has is a boxcutter? Im gonna grab my crash axe and chop him up... while tossing fire extingushers to passengers. .you? Or do you cower and say.. "Please dont cut me Mr. Big Bad Terrorist"
 
Weedwacker posted in other threads
To be honest, I'd have to check all the math, but these wacky conspiracy theories are getting pretty wild. Some say that no planes hit the buildings in NY? I know crews that watched it!
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Everyone knows American 77 hit the Pentagon. Thousands of people saw it. But, I guess this is America and they can do what they want I guess. I still need to look over that site thoroughly.
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Hope his numbers are accurate, cause I'm ready to go over it with a fine toothed comb.
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I'll see what I can do.
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Still looking over the work.
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Still researching.
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In the meantime, I'll keep looking over his work.
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I'm still checking on it.
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I really have to look into this further. Thanks for all the help everyone.
I'll continue to post so observations.
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I'm still highly skeptical of JDX's claims of 480MSL. It appears he went to Boeing and a few other companies to get some answers, but was refused. I'm also trying to work some of my channels.
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Still researching.

Weedwacker, after all the time you've spent looking over JDX' site and math, we'd all REALLY like to see that critique you promised. It'd be a shame for you not to post it, after all the work you've done looking over his site and 'researching'. If you'd like, why don't you PM it to me? I haven't seen your PM yet in my mailbox; I'd really like to see the fruits of your labors.
 
I'm not weedwacker, but I'll channell JDX for now: Found this on the "Fdr Vertical Speed, Altimeter lag issues addressed as well" thread in the Pentagon forum at LC

Anit-Sophist is holding onto fractions of a second within 1 frame.

The True Altitude of the aircraft at the ":44 Frame" was 480MSL. At 66ft/sec it would take 7.2 seconds longer to hit the pentagon. At this rate if it were low enough to hit the poles, it would have plowed into the ground prior to hitting the pentagon. If it increased its rate (which the accelerometer shows), it would have plowed into the ground sooner.

So, in order for Anti-Sophist to have his way.. he needs to get the NTSB to admit the aircraft struck the pentagon at 09:37:51. Or during the :51 "frame".

He makes a nice attempt to show confusion and chaos as most JREFers do, but the fact remains that using his logic, the FDR still conflicts with the official story. It doesnt matter what "fraction of the :44 second" the altitude was recorded as it will still need 7 seconds from there for impact.

Unfortunately.. the NTSB reports the impact time at 09:37:45

http://www.ntsb.gov/info/Flight_ Path_ Study_AA77.pdf
Bottom of page 2.

The NTSB used ATC transmissions, Radar data and the FDR to reconstruct the animation. Its in real time. The csv file matches the animation exactly (except for the cover-up of the altimeter being set on descent in the animation as it would have shown too high.. couldnt have that..lol). However, im not surprised you JREFers are unable to grasp that fact. Perhaps you think the ATC instructions, Radar and FDR are all in error by the same amount?


As for ground elevation errors. I have shown the factor for errors with the original use of Google Earth cross checked with the Jeppessen Airway Manuals. It is +/- 5 feet in error in the DCA area. The USGS is more accurate. It has been noted, im not surprised you missed it.
 

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