A world without marriage

[Wolfman]

There is really no conflict between the local Daba religion, and the Tibetan Buddhist religion. On a day-to-day basis, Tibetan Buddhism predominates. You see prayer flags and prayer wheels everywhere; many families will send at least one son to Tibet to be trained as a monk (and there's a significant difference here...any male can become a monk, but only sons of a Daba priest can become a priest themselves, which makes it rather self-limiting).

The Daba priest is more of a "special occasions" kind of guy. For naming ceremonies, funerals, divining ceremonies, or other such things, he's the one who is called on. He is the one who determines the auspicious dates for building a house, or setting off on a journey.

I guess one way to put it would be like this; Tibetan Buddhism is more visibly prevalent, but also more passive. You hang up some prayer flags, hang some prayer wheels, say your prayers at the altar in the morning, etc. The Daba faith is less visible, but more active; when you need to make an actual decision, or when you face specific problems, you go to the Daba priest.

This is, inevitably, a terribly over-simplification of what is really a rather complex interaction between the two. Often, both Tibetan monks and a Daba priest may be called on for guidance or advice, and be involved simultaneously in the same ceremonies. Funerals are a good example, usually being presided over by both Tibetan monks and Daba priests. But there is generally little or no conflict; the two are seen as complementary to each other, not competitive.

 

[BlackCat]

Great videos, Wolfie, thanks for posting them. I wasn't sure if you were aware, but I saw a program on the National Geographic channel a few days ago, Taboo, I think it was, and it had a segment about the Mosuo. Although it was interesting, it didn't teach me anything that you hadn't already, and sometimes it seemed like they couldn't see other cultures without their own culture tainting their view. (I know that sounds vague, I guess what I mean is they still saw things in a "patriarchal" way.) The most interesting part was just seeing how people dress, and how the area looks.

Also, I'd love to ask more questions, but I can't think of anything interesting. I'll let you know if I do.

 

[luchog]

TThis is, inevitably, a terribly over-simplification of what is really a rather complex interaction between the two. Often, both Tibetan monks and a Daba priest may be called on for guidance or advice, and be involved simultaneously in the same ceremonies. Funerals are a good example, usually being presided over by both Tibetan monks and Daba priests. But there is generally little or no conflict; the two are seen as complementary to each other, not competitive.

It sounds similar to the relationship between Buddhism and Shinto in Japan.

 

[Fnord]

A world without marriage...

... is a world without divorce.

(Nuff Sed)​

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

I'm glad I finally got around to checking those videos out. The scenery is beautiful there.

Question about the garb for the dance in the first video. The womens costumes seemed to have a western and more specifically a Victorian feel to them. Am I seeing something that's not there?

 

[Wolfman]

I'm glad I finally got around to checking those videos out. The scenery is beautiful there.

Question about the garb for the dance in the first video. The womens costumes seemed to have a western and more specifically a Victorian feel to them. Am I seeing something that's not there?

Well, there may be a similarity with some Victorian styles, I don't know...but it would be purely coincidental. These are traditional styles of clothing that have existed for several hundred years among the Mosuo. The only real change has been in the fabrics used (in the past, almost all clothing was made either from wool or from hemp; now, the more affluent Mosuo will buy clothes made with silk or satin for the traditional outfits).

 

[UnrepentantSinner]

Well, there may be a similarity with some Victorian styles, I don't know...but it would be purely coincidental. These are traditional styles of clothing that have existed for several hundred years among the Mosuo. The only real change has been in the fabrics used (in the past, almost all clothing was made either from wool or from hemp; now, the more affluent Mosuo will buy clothes made with silk or satin for the traditional outfits).

That's what I figured. The similarities were mostly superficial (dress style/cut and the hats). Some of the accoutremonts to the dresses were definately Chinese/Tibetan.

The video of the covered, moterized trike reminded me of an episode of The Amazing Race where they used a similar vehicle in Sri Lanka referred to locally as a Tuc Tuc (sic). I would love one of those.

 

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

As an abstract to THIS society, how can one easily forget the existence of such a culture within the framework of our own society - a tried and failed attempt known as the "hippie movement", wherein communal shared living was the order of the day..."free love" abounded and the same basic outlines were established in many of the habitats....no overt indecency "in the faces" of other members of the community and especially none in front of the children....a modicum of stability was established by providing rooms for couples with singles just hanging about in hopes of an invite into private arrangements. Families shared everything in common and responsibilities were assigned only on a casual basis...with the general trendy belief that if one does not contribute one does not eat. Much more about this lifestyle is to be said for a full parallel to be drawn. The gist of it all can easily be found in books such as "The Whole Earth Catalog", "The Next Whole Eart Catalog", and their final volume (of which I am clueless as to title), as well as the "Foxfire" (or is it "Firefox) series. Having lived on the fringes of that society and its misgivings (the drug culture and the separation from church and state, not to mention one's paternal/maternal families and sibling rivals
.........well, everyone should be able to get the drift, whatever felt good, one did just that and no one criticized or condemned or protested against such should a member fail to amount to anything in society. And just as often as not those irresponsible lads who had the run of the stalls could sire (for lack of a better word) bastard children. Alas I used a misnomer (to some), I am sure.... but labels are just what they appear to be - just words and mine are not uttered with contempt or judgmental viewpoint, but with discernment and concern. Many times this lifestyle led to cultism...a far worse evil (but that is, of course, another story, and another thread one may pick up on). The operative word herein is, certainly, TRIED AND FAILED.

 

[Wolfman]

As an abstract to THIS society, how can one easily forget the existence of such a culture within the framework of our own society - a tried and failed attempt known as the "hippie movement", wherein communal shared living was the order of the day..."free love" abounded and the same basic outlines were established in many of the habitats....no overt indecency "in the faces" of other members of the community and especially none in front of the children....a modicum of stability was established by providing rooms for couples with singles just hanging about in hopes of an invite into private arrangements. Families shared everything in common and responsibilities were assigned only on a casual basis...with the general trendy belief that if one does not contribute one does not eat. Much more about this lifestyle is to be said for a full parallel to be drawn. The gist of it all can easily be found in books such as "The Whole Earth Catalog", "The Next Whole Eart Catalog", and their final volume (of which I am clueless as to title), as well as the "Foxfire" (or is it "Firefox) series. Having lived on the fringes of that society and its misgivings (the drug culture and the separation from church and state, not to mention one's paternal/maternal families and sibling rivals
.........well, everyone should be able to get the drift, whatever felt good, one did just that and no one criticized or condemned or protested against such should a member fail to amount to anything in society. And just as often as not those irresponsible lads who had the run of the stalls could sire (for lack of a better word) bastard children. Alas I used a misnomer (to some), I am sure.... but labels are just what they appear to be - just words and mine are not uttered with contempt or judgmental viewpoint, but with discernment and concern. Many times this lifestyle led to cultism...a far worse evil (but that is, of course, another story, and another thread one may pick up on).

You are far from the first person to see some parallels between the hippie movement and the Mosuo culture. However, some key differences that create very clear differentiation between the two:

* the hippie movement generally lacked any leadership or power structure. Everyone was supposed to be equal, and the focus was on doing what made you feel good. In Mosuo culture, there is a very clear power structure, and a clearly delineated hierarchy. The focus is on doing what is best for the family.

* while the hippie movement did try to make communal groups, people within those groups could generally join and leave them as they pleased. Almost none of those communal groups lasted more than 5 or 10 years. Mosuo families, by contrast, are extremely tightly knit, with most family members -- both male and female -- staying not only in the same family, but in the same home, for their entire lives.

* the hippie movement, obviously, focused in a big way on drug use. While not all hippies participated in this (and certainly, they participated to varying degrees), it nevertheless reinforced the lack of sense of responsibility to the group as a whole. The strongest drug that I'm aware of the Mosuo using is marijuana, which grows naturally there, and which is locally quite weak, giving little more than a light buzz.

* the hippie movement focused on the "free love" idea, wherein people could change partners as often as they wanted, or have relationships with several partners at the same time. The Mosuo are, as described previously, 'serial monogamists'. They do not generally jump from partner to partner (although there are not specific cultural taboos against such behavior), and would almost never be carrying on sexual relationships with more than one person at the same time. Mosuo relationships are certainly more flexible and changeable than 'traditional' relationships, but nevertheless are taken somewhat more seriously than they were in the hippie movement.

* the hippie movement essentially died out after a fairly short period of time; the Mosuo culture is hundreds/thousands (difficult to give exact figures because of lack of written records) of years old.

The operative word herein is, certainly, TRIED AND FAILED.

Well, technically, that's more than one word. And yes, I'd agree that the hippie movement failed to demonstrate any real staying power. It was fun for young people rebelling against perceived authorities; but lacked the structure and cohesion to keep them together as a society as they matured, and as life presented them with more complex challenges. As stated above, the Mosuo by contrast have quite a long history...the operative words here being TRIED AND PROVEN.

 

[Kaylee]

* the hippie movement generally lacked any leadership or power structure. Everyone was supposed to be equal, and the focus was on doing what made you feel good. In Mosuo culture, there is a very clear power structure, and a clearly delineated hierarchy. The focus is on doing what is best for the family.

* while the hippie movement did try to make communal groups, people within those groups could generally join and leave them as they pleased. Almost none of those communal groups lasted more than 5 or 10 years. Mosuo families, by contrast, are extremely tightly knit, with most family members -- both male and female -- staying not only in the same family, but in the same home, for their entire lives.

Any mechanism in place for daughters that would like to "divorce" their families? Either start their own house or move into a different house?

What about the men? How many choices do they have for their permanent abode? Is there more than one communal home for them?

Also, I was wondering, given that the uncles are expected to help supprot their nieces and nephews -- do they get any say in birth control practices?

 

[Wolfman]

Any mechanism in place for daughters that would like to "divorce" their families? Either start their own house or move into a different house?

Actually, yes, there are specific mechanisms in place for such eventualities. Sometimes, men or women within a particular family may reject that family, or be kicked out of a family. In such cases, there are two main options.

1) Start a new family. This option is available only to the women (as there must be a female head of the new family), although a man may join her in founding the new home. In other words, a woman could start a new family on her own, or she could start it with another man; but a man could not start a new family on his own (the exception to this being the Daba families, I would assume, since they still follow a patriarchal system, although I have not explicitly discussed this topic with them, so this is based on my assumptions, not on confirmed fact). I referred earlier to a book called "Leaving Mother Lake", which is the story of one Mosuo woman's childhood; in that story, her mother had actually left her home to start a new family, because of disagreements with the rest of the family. As a result, instead of growing up on a large family with an extensive network of relations, she grew up with only her mother to care for her (and the occasional involvement of her father).

2) Adoption by another family. The Mosuo seem to practice adoption much more frequently and commonly than most other cultures I know. A person who left (or was kicked out of) their own family could be adopted into another.

What about the men? How many choices do they have for their permanent abode? Is there more than one communal home for them?

No real choices for the men within a Mosuo community. Men do not have their own houses/homes. However, men have the option of leaving their community altogether...to go find work elsewhere, and live on their own. This does happen, but is extremely rare; to be excluded from their home and community like that would be terribly traumatic for most of them.

Also, I was wondering, given that the uncles are expected to help supprot their nieces and nephews -- do they get any say in birth control practices?

Well, they would have some "say" in regards to giving advice, certainly. In fact, the oldest man in the house generally is second only to the family matriarch in decision-making and giving advice. But final decisions in this regard (as in pretty much every other area) would be up to the matriarch.

I mentioned this earlier, but it bears mentioning here; the Mosuo essentially monitor and maintain very carefully both the size and the gender balance of their family. If the family gets smaller, they'll have more children. If the family is already of a suitable size, or is too large, they'll stop having children. If a family has too many children of one gender, they'll swap kids with another family that has too many of the opposite gender.

 

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

Say. There has been some highly instructive parallels drawn here and I'll be the first to admit to have learned a thing or two. I do recall that you stated earlier on that system has worked for them due in large part to maternal superiority over paternal (woman over man - did I get that correct?) and the society thrives within a structure like an Amazonian construct.... well, this is interesting indeed because it sounds rather much like a society that would never tolerate same sex relationships to any degree (seemingly the chance for repulsion from the family structure would be total, and with the man having no power to form a household of his own....well, obviously he'd be an outcast were he to be such a person as to choose a homosexual lifestyle..... Perhaps this never enters into the equation, but I think it does somewhere in there. Moreover, I believe that you have quite possibly the deepest respect and love for these people to have gone so deeply into their culture and amassed so large a database on even the smallest of their affairs. You are quite remarkable in your analogies, and your demeanor in defending your points of view is commendable.

 

[Wolfman]

I do recall that you stated earlier on that system has worked for them due in large part to maternal superiority over paternal (woman over man - did I get that correct?) and the society thrives within a structure like an Amazonian construct.... well, this is interesting indeed because it sounds rather much like a society that would never tolerate same sex relationships to any degree.

I would not describe this culture as "Amazonian" in that the typical interpretation of an Amazonian culture is not only that women are empowered, but that men are essentially emasculated and reduced to a role as little more than breeding stock. As mentioned elsewhere, despite having women in charge, Mosuo men are quite "masculine" by pretty much any standard, and have a definite role in society that far exceeds simply being there as breeders.

And no, homosexuality is actually more tolerated in Mosuo culture than in many others; there are no explicit taboos against it within the culture, and the overall attitude seems to be one of "don't ask, don't tell".

Moreover, I believe that you have quite possibly the deepest respect and love for these people to have gone so deeply into their culture and amassed so large a database on even the smallest of their affairs. You are quite remarkable in your analogies, and your demeanor in defending your points of view is commendable.

Thank you. Yes, the Mosuo culture is one that is very special to me. My answers here are intended not to "defend my point of view" (if that were the case, I likely would be more aggressive in my responses), but rather to serve as a representative of the Mosuo people, to explain their culture as clearly and as fairly as I can.

I've done my best in all answers within this thread to clarify where my answers are based on direct information given to me by the Mosuo themselves (and/or qualified anthropologists who work with the Mosuo); where questions are asked that I have not specifically discussed with the Mosuo, I will state that those are personal opinion, and may not be as accurate. In situations where there may be different opinions, I will do my best to present those different opinions for peoples' consideration.

In short -- I don't consider this a debate, or an argument. I'm not trying to 'win' any arguments. In this case, a 'victory' doesn't consist of getting people to agree with me; it consists simply in my success in letting more people know about the Mosuo.

And thanks for your interest, and your comments

 

[Kaylee]

No real choices for the men within a Mosuo community. Men do not have their own houses/homes. However, men have the option of leaving their community altogether...to go find work elsewhere, and live on their own. This does happen, but is extremely rare; to be excluded from their home and community like that would be terribly traumatic for most of them.

Hmmm. I am surprised as it seems that one thing people have in common, regardless where we live, is figuring out how to get along with each other.

I would think that each community would have several communal houses instead of just one, to help give some of the men who needed it some space from each other.

Anyway, thanks again for explaining the Mosuo culture. Its really great to have this rare opportunity to find out about another culture -- and I appreciate it!

 

[Wolfman]

I would think that each community would have several communal houses instead of just one, to help give some of the men who needed it some space from each other.

I know that, for myself, the communal aspect of Mosuo culture would drive me absolutely crazy if I lived there for an extended time. There is virtually no individual privacy at all, particularly for men.

If a guy needed to get away from his home for a short time, there would be little or no difficulty with staying in a friend's home overnight (in fact, I've had several nights with the Mosuo where, after a night of fairly heavy drinking and singing, we all just slept together in the same communal area). But for a guy who had actually been kicked out of his home (or left it), the only long-term solution would be finding another family that would adopt him as a member in their home, or else to find a woman who would start a new home with him as her partner.

The Mosuo are very much a communal culture; that means that their identity is based primarily on the group they belong to, not on their individual identity. A man without a home is a man without an identity. A woman who leaves her home will face similar problems, but she at least has the ability to have children and build a new home, and a new "identity". A man, on his own, doesn't really have that option within the Mosuo culture.

While for me, living in such an environment would, I know, eventually drive me crazy, with no real concept of personal space or privacy, the Mosuo viewpoint is very different. Most Mosuo I know fear being alone; they need the presence of other people around them to feel comfortable. Yes, the women have private bedrooms, but based on my conversations with Mosuo women, almost none of them would sleep alone in those rooms. If they do not have a man staying with them that night, they will instead go and sleep in a communal area with other women. And once they are at an age where they're no longer engaging in sexual relations, they will almost always sleep in a communal area.

The Mosuo culture is not without its 'severe' aspects. As mentioned elsewhere, the Mosuo can be fairly liberal in regards to violence, for example; slitting a person's throat for thievery, for example. If you are a "part" of the community, you have a very strong support system to rely on; but if you are kicked out of that community, you will find yourself almost entirely on your own. They won't generally provide some sort of support system for such individuals, because they want the strongest possible disincentives for people to do the things that would cause them to be kicked out of the family.

 

[Wolfman]

The previous post reminded me somewhat tangentially of an experience I had this year; I was approached by a Dutch artist who wanted to do some sort of exhibition based on the Mosuo culture. I was skeptical -- simply because she's an artist, and less concerned about presenting 'truth' as opposed to presenting something she considers 'artistically significant' -- but talked with her about it, and agreed to provide at least some assistance in contacting the Mosuo.

She was financed in her efforts by an American-Chinese woman, and it turned out that she was really the one in control. It was clear from the first time we talked that while she wanted what assistance I could give, she wanted 100% credit for any results and publicity from this venture. Neither myself nor my organization was going to get any recognition for assistance we rendered.

Nevertheless, they planned to do an exhibition in Beijing, and later possibly in New York, that would at least increase awareness of the Mosuo people, even if it didn't increase awareness of our organization. So I still went along with it.

I met with them in Beijing, and rendered a significant amount of assistance to them in making their plans. They asked me to go to Lugu Lake with them, and I stated that I was willing to, but that they would need to cover my basic expenses (rather than expecting me to pay money out of my own pockets, or my organization's expenses, for something that they didn't even want to give us any recognition for). This American woman, despite being willing to spend tons of money on the exhibition itself, said that she felt she didn't have enough money to pay all of my expenses (and we are talking about a total of around $US 500 for four days for airfare and hotel...I wasn't even charging for my time).

I had some other people who were also interested in working with my organization who were going to be at Lugu Lake at around the same time, so I contacted them, and managed to work out an agreement whereby they would pay half of my costs. So now, the total amount that I was asking from this American woman to fly to Lugu Lake and assist her in her venture was a little over US $250...a bargain no matter how you look at it.

Anyway, I went there, introduced them to local people who gave them significant assistance in completing their project...and then suddenly, when I asked for the money, this American woman told me that she "wasn't satisfied with the services I'd rendered", and that she could have done everything on her own, so she was not willing to reimburse me for the amount that we had agreed on.

Now, since she was American Chinese, I understand some of her thinking...she saw me as the white foreigner, who doesn't understand Chinese culture; while she's Chinese, so she "knows how the culture works". She figured that once I'd introduced her to people there, and she had the contacts, then she no longer needed me, and could easily cut me out of the loop.

What she didn't count on was the reaction of the Mosuo people, who consider loyalty and honesty to be core virtues. Every Mosuo involved was a personal friend of mine, and had agreed to help only because of my request to do so. Once she cut me out, and I told them what happened, she got a cold shoulder that would make Antarctica look tropical by comparison. They refused to answer her phone calls, and actively created obstructions to whatever she wanted to do.

She did, in the end, manage to put the show together, but at much higher cost (and certainly more than the $250 that she tried to save by not paying me), and of terribly poor quality. The one regret I have is that, in not participating, the information that they put together on the Mosuo and gave to people at the show had quite a few inaccuracies; but given the attitudes I saw, I doubt that they would have given us much real input or changed things anyway.

Anyway, my point here -- the Mosuo are incredibly good friends to have. The incredible loyalty that they demonstrate, the willingness to go to any length to help a friend, is incredible. Once you've established a real friendship with them, it is a friendship for life, and a friendship you can count on completely.

But the flip side of that is that you absolutely do not want Mosuo as your enemy; they have few inhibitions about violence (when they feel it is warranted), and are more than happy to act as both judge and jury. I've had to be very careful in my relationships, because the loyalty they show to me is, of course, expected to be reciprocated by myself. Anything that they view as disloyal, or disrepectful of the relationship, could cause really serious damage (both to our relationship, and to my own physical well being). Thus far, I've done okay (and have been fortunate that they do recognize I'm from a different culture, and give me more flexibility when I occasionally make mistakes).

I emphasize this point primarily to deal with the perception (popularly promoted in many articles about the Mosuo) that the Mosuo culture has no violence, or is a culture where everyone is equal, where there are no problems, etc. Yes, the Mosuo culture is fascinating, and I think there are things we can learn from studying and learning about it; but, like every culture on the planet, it is not perfect, and it has its weaknesses and problems, too.

 

[Kaylee]

It was clear from the first time we talked that while she wanted what assistance I could give, she wanted 100% credit for any results and publicity from this venture. Neither myself nor my organization was going to get any recognition for assistance we rendered.

I really, really hate people like that.

<snip>

Anyway, I went there, introduced them to local people who gave them significant assistance in completing their project...and then suddenly, when I asked for the money, this American woman told me that she "wasn't satisfied with the services I'd rendered", and that she could have done everything on her own, so she was not willing to reimburse me for the amount that we had agreed on.

What she didn't count on was the reaction of the Mosuo people, who consider loyalty and honesty to be core virtues. Every Mosuo involved was a personal friend of mine, and had agreed to help only because of my request to do so. Once she cut me out, and I told them what happened, she got a cold shoulder that would make Antarctica look tropical by comparison. They refused to answer her phone calls, and actively created obstructions to whatever she wanted to do.

<snip>

Anyway, my point here -- the Mosuo are incredibly good friends to have. The incredible loyalty that they demonstrate, the willingness to go to any length to help a friend, is incredible. Once you've established a real friendship with them, it is a friendship for life, and a friendship you can count on completely.

But the flip side of that is that you absolutely do not want Mosuo as your enemy; they have few inhibitions about violence (when they feel it is warranted), and are more than happy to act as both judge and jury. I've had to be very careful in my relationships, because the loyalty they show to me is, of course, expected to be reciprocated by myself. Anything that they view as disloyal, or disrepectful of the relationship, could cause really serious damage (both to our relationship, and to my own physical well being). Thus far, I've done okay (and have been fortunate that they do recognize I'm from a different culture, and give me more flexibility when I occasionally make mistakes).

I emphasize this point primarily to deal with the perception (popularly promoted in many articles about the Mosuo) that the Mosuo culture has no violence, or is a culture where everyone is equal, where there are no problems, etc. Yes, the Mosuo culture is fascinating, and I think there are things we can learn from studying and learning about it; but, like every culture on the planet, it is not perfect, and it has its weaknesses and problems, too.

I find it very, very interesting. They are different, yet I don't see them as completely radically different. Just emphasising different aspects of the same continuum of behavior. Wish I could express it better, but that is how I see it based on your posts.

 

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

And are they, then, sans hypocricy/bigotry?

I really, really hate people like that.








I find it very, very interesting. They are different, yet I don't see them as completely radically different. Just emphasising different aspects of the same continuum of behavior. Wish I could express it better, but that is how I see it based on your posts.

Are these peoples without the hypocrisy/bigotry found in most other societies? It would reason out that, as within any society that cold shoulders anyone or locks them out, the level of "tolerance" expressed herein is the determining factor for most applications dealing with personal interaction. I believe most other societies actually have less tolerence and therefore the level of hypocrisy/bigotry is higher. What say you?

 

[Wolfman]

I don't think that you can generalize like that. Hypocrisy has little to do with what rules a society has; it has to do with your personal beliefs and actions. The Mosuo are just as capable of saying one thing and doing another as are people in any other culture.

 

[verusl@centurytel.ne]

If hypocrisy has so little to do with that aspect, then how do you explain the Republican System of American Society adopting "Democracy", opening its doors to the world for immigration and naturalizaton, then coming up with the Asian Exclusion Act which prohibited almost entirely the entry of Japanese while allowing Chinese to enter en masse. In fact it was to a large extent that "we" collectively brought on Japan's dissatisfaction and unrest with American policy....some say the impact of those hypocritical thinking schemes were hallmark in their ultimate attack on Pearl Harbor. Now this is no generalization, rather a specification. What do you think on your statement concerning hypocrisy with regard to the rules of society?