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A world without marriage

I have a question. In learning about sociology, I discovered that in many societies (most of which are patriarchal), when they have such divisions of labor like men's work and women's work, the men "look down" on the women's work, regardless of what it is. (Basically, I'm thinking of how men in the US in the '50s thought of housework.) Meaning, in one culture, if looking after livestock is women's work, it will be looked down on in that culture, whereas in another culture, if that happens to be men's work, it will be seen as important and masculine.

So, I'm curious, in Mosuo culture, does either gender look down on the other's work?
Hmmmm...another question that I haven't really examined in detail, I'll try to get more info on that next time I go. My own perception would be not so much that one gender 'looks down on' the other gender's work; but rather that it is simply felt that one gender does particular jobs well. To draw a parallel...if you had a big, strong, muscular man, and a small, weak man, the former would be the rather obvious choice for a job like being a blacksmith. However, that would not necessarily mean that one looked down on the other.

But as I think about it, for example, women traditionally do the weaving of fabrics, clothing, etc. I've never seen a man do this, and I don't know what the reaction would be of Mosuo if they saw a man doing it. Would they simply feel that it was funny, but was his choice? Would they look down on him for doing a 'woman's job'? Will have to ask more questions about this next time I go.
Do they have any type of exports? If the average eyars income is about $100, how do they earn the money?
The Mosuo only have two 'exports' that I'm aware of. The first is their hand-woven materials (that provide a very limited income from a few tourist areas); the second is the people themselves (who go to other cities to get jobs). There are other possibilities for export (such as a local form of red rice that they grow which is quite tasty), but not much has been done to exploit or build on this yet.

By far the majority of income for the Mosuo is derived from tourism; but that benefits (or hurts, depending on your perspective) only those Mosuo who live in tourist areas.

For the majority of Mosuo, they live in a largely cashless society, based more on trade and barter. The majority of their daily needs for subsistence -- food, clothing, etc. -- are secured in this manner. What money they do make will come from selling excess produce in markets, or perhaps selling hand-made clothing, etc. But its a very limited income.

"Why do the Mosuo need money then?" Its a common question, and a good one. From a basic subsistence point of view, to just have enough food, housing, clothing, etc., most of them are able to do so quite well without any reliance on cash. However, what happens when someone in your family is seriously injured, or becomes ill, and you have to go to the hospital? Then you have to pay the cost of transportation to/from the hospital; you have to pay all the medical costs, etc. Or what about when your children want to go to school? Most of the basic costs are covered by the government, but if your children get into junior or senior high school, or university, the odds are very far that the school will be too far away to walk there. Instead, your children will have to board at the school, and you have to pay all the costs for that -- travel, accommodation, food, etc.

Yes, the Mosuo can continue to 'subsist' at the level they are currently at (and have been living at for hundreds of years). But they cannot grow, they cannot develop. Again, there are those Mosuo who have no desire to change, who like things just the way they are; and I respect that. But there are many other Mosuo (from my experience, they would compose the majority) who want at least some degree of change and growth. There's lots of debate and disagreement about how much change, and what kind of change...but they do want it.

More importantly, as I've discussed elsewhere, they want to be able to control the changes taking place within their society, rather than having it controlled by outsiders. And in order to do that, they need education, resources, etc....all things which require money.
 
Just as a typical western man may see things like knitting and sewing as "women's work", and not suitable for a man, so many Mosuo men have the same view of things like mathematics. It's not "man's work" to just sit and write on paper, and think about things; a "real man" is out cutting logs, building houses, riding horses, etc.

This reminds me of something I heard about the European Enlightenment of the 17th and 18th centuries.

Apparently, during the Enlightenment, a man would show how erudite and sophisticated he was by NOT engaging in traditional "masculine" things. He would wear poofy wigs and frilly lace, effectively becoming as effeminate as possible, and engage in debates and research and other "thinking" activities as opposed to anything physically strenuous.

I find it an interesting parallel that the Mosuo men also lump "thinking" activities together with other girly stuff, just like the Enlightenment men did -- the only difference being, the Enlightenment men actually pursued the girly stuff as a means of setting themselves apart.
 
Well, my main point in offering this information was the role that conditioning and education plays in gender roles. I know many people who, to this day, will try to claim that men are 'naturally better' at some things while women are 'naturally better' at others. In more traditional Christian circles, I've seen this take the form of arguments that men are physiologically better suited to handle leadership and stress, and their minds are better suited for mathematics, science, etc. This type of argument is usually used to support a 'traditional' division of labor and responsibility between men and women.

Of course, such arguments are essentially self-fulfilling prophecies; you believe men are better at certain things, women better at others, so you train them accordingly...and lo and behold, that's how it works out!

This is one of the reasons I believe it is so valuable to study other cultures, because we are able to observe people who are born and raised in dramatically different situations. I'm not arguing that one culture is superior to another; but rather that, taking the different pieces offered by different cultures, we are able to put together a larger picture that offers a broader perspective than we could ever hope to achieve purely within the confines of our own culture.
 
I'm really enjoying people's questions, as they give Wolfman the opportunity to elaborate so well.

I've been wondering about the Mosuo's cuisine and whether there are any issues in their nutrition.

Do they grow rice? What are their staples? Do they need money to buy staples? I think I remember you saying they eat pork either regularly, or on special occasions, which they raise themselves.

I haven't seen any pictures of any obese Mosuo people, but I was wondering if there are any cases of that, or perhaps malnutrition.

Is there a typical traditional Mosuo dish?
 
The Mosuo diet is very similar to the Tibetan diet (if you're familiar with that). It is quite heavy on meat (and since there's usually no refrigeration, it is heavily salted for preservation) and potatoes. Traditionally, potatoes were the staple food, not rice, but that is changing somewhat with the Chinese cultural influence. Also lots of veggies, and lots of dairy.

Pretty much all the food they need can be grown locally, and if they manage to escape the ravages of disease, they are generally quite healthy. They are not at all the typical picture of the small, thin Asian...they are generally quite tall, with hefty builds. Obesity would not be a problem, from what I've seen...although i suspect that as they develop and physical labor becomes less necessary (and they start spending more time watching TV or playing computer games) that this will become more of a problem.

The food that would be considered as most stereotypically Mosuo would be the "Zhu biao rou", which is large slabs of pork (like 40 or 50 kg) that are preserved in such a manner that it can be kept for seven years or longer without refrigeration.

Then there's the yak's butter tea, which is a Tibetan drink...one of the things that is very much an acquired taste, and I'm afraid I've never acquired it.

My favorite local dish would be a dish called "gan bian tu dou si", which is shredded potatoes that are fried in a way that makes a kind of pancake...pretty much like a large hashbrown.

With a diet that is heavy on meat and potatoes, and also has a lot of dairy, the Mosuo diet is much more similar to a Western diet than it would be to the typical Chinese diet.
 
this thread was awesome outside of this guys posts.
It wasn't my posts that they dropped when making this a Featured Thread.

Lugu Lake has become popular as a "sex tourist" destination, with lots of outsiders
Why should the local women be interested in going to bed with a tourist, and then another one, and then again another one? Isn't there money involved? If there is, then it is standard prostitution, in no way different from what happens elsewhere in the world.

I think prostitution is illegal in China, but I certainly never imagined that the police would try to enforce the law, any more than anti-piracy or human rights laws.

different cultural groups that have had similar practices
Any average Hollywood movie features a man and a woman having an intimate relationship as long as they choose, and then ending it whenever they feel so. I fail to see a fundamental difference between modern western love affairs and a walking marriage. Apart from the fact that woman is the one who picks, but you cannot get a woman in the west either if she is not interested. In any case it takes two persons interested in each other, no matter what rituals are used to reveal the fact that two persons are interested in each other.

Then the fact that the two lovers will not live in the same house. This seems to be the least attractive part of the practice from a western point of view, since most people find it to be one of the greatest joys of life to live together with your partner and watch closely your kids grow day by day. Few sociologists in the world would recommend the father to stay much away from home. Quite the opposite, and the reasons are said to be numerous.
 
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Why should the local women be interested in going to bed with a tourist, and then another one, and then again another one? Isn't there money involved? If there is, then it is standard prostitution, in no way different from what happens elsewhere in the world.

I think prostitution is illegal in China, but I certainly never imagined that the police would try to enforce the law, any more than anti-piracy or human rights laws.
If you'd bother reading what has already been written here, you'll find I've addressed this issue.
Any average Hollywood movie features a man and a woman having an intimate relationship as long as they choose, and then ending it whenever they feel so. I fail to see a fundamental difference between modern western love affairs and a walking marriage. Apart from the fact that woman is the one who picks, but you cannot get a woman in the west either if she is not interested. In any case it takes two persons interested in each other, no matter what rituals are used to reveal the fact that two persons are interested in each other.
Again, this issue has been covered; there is a very fundamental difference in that in walking marriages, there is no sharing of property, or of children. So, unlike the western relationships you refer to, there is no fighting over division of property, no fighting for custody of children, etc. A rather significant difference, I'd think...one that's been discussed any number of times in this thread...and one that you somehow managed to miss out on completely.
Then the fact that the two lovers will not live in the same house. This seems to be the least attractive part of the practice from a western point of view, since most people find it to be one of the greatest joys of life to live together with your partner and watch closely your kids grow day by day. Few sociologists in the world would recommend the father to stay much away from home. Quite the opposite, and the reasons are said to be numerous.
I love it when people make entirely unsupported statements of fact, and expect them to be accepted without question

Once again, repeating an all-too-familiar mantra, if you had read/comprehended what has actually been written here, you would realize that there is nothing about the children having no father figure. Quite the opposite...instead of having just one, they have multiple father figures. Every uncle, every adult male in their family shares in the parenting duties.

And regarding sociologists, pretty well every sociologist and anthropologist that I know who have studied Mosuo families have found them to be extremely stable, and very supportive. Mosuo children never face the trauma of parents fighting for custody. Mosuo children virtually never become orphans...instead of just two parents who care for them, they have an entire extended family who share the parenting duties and responsibilities.

Honestly, it is hard for me to respond to you with much other than disdain. Not because you disagree with me; but because you insist on popping in with comparisons that are not at all accurate, and conclusions that are entirely unsupported, all while raising issues that have already been thoroughly discussed and explained elsewhere in this thread. Instead, you just kinda' cherry-pick isolated factoids, find them different from your own world view, and dismiss them therefore as being 'wrong'.

You are not personally attracted to the Mosuo culture. That's fine. I get it. I'm not expecting to convert anyone to being Mosuo, in fact I've stated a number of times (if you'd bother to read what's been written) that I do not believe that the Mosuo culture could be transposed into Western culture. Without the large extended family structure that the Mosuo have, it would not work. I'm not trying to convince anyone that the Mosuo way is better; only to introduce an alternate world-view, a different way of viewing relationships, families, etc.

I'll give you a hint which I doubt will make much difference, but I'll say it anyway. What you consider normal does not define what is normal for all humans. What you consider stable, or desirable, or healthy, does not define what all of humanity considers stable, or desirable, or healthy. There are, in fact, huge numbers of human beings upon this planet who live lives very, very different than the one you seem to keep trying to hold up as the 'standard' of normalcy and propriety; and not only are they successful at doing so, but they are quite happy.

If you can't be bothered to read the full thread, and actually make some effort to comprehend and understand what is being discussed, rather than just pop in with these brief revelations on your own limited world view, then I'd rather you just stay away. There's no reason on earth why I should waste time answering your questions or responding to your comments when you can't be bothered to understand what it is you're commenting on.

Most Mosuo would not be happy living the life that you hold up as 'normal' or 'proper'; and you would not be happy living the life that the Mosuo live. That's fine...I have no problem at all with that. This is, in fact, what makes our world such a fascinating place, that there can be so many different systems that all work, within their own context. How sad that you are apparently entirely incapable of understanding or appreciating that.
 
Wolfman,

An absolutely fascinating thread, culture, and subject. I just spent 2.5 hours going through it in detail. I wish I could help in some way, but with no applicable qualifications or money to spare, all I can sat is good luck.

Chris
 
If I understood correctly, this walking marriage is not only "permissible" among the Mosuo people, but indeed "obligatory". Other options not permitted for members of the Mosuo community.

In comparison, Guinea Bissau has a small and diminishing community where "women choose husbands, who are compelled to marry them".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Bissau#Matriarchy

Words like "compelled" and "obligatory" and "the only accepted option" should be a red flag to any critically thinking person. Not least because critical thinking is usually the first thing banned when something is banned.
 
I'll save Wolfman the trouble and once again suggest you actually read the entire thread. Especially Wolf's last post.

Another aspect of critical thinking is to reckognise if someone is looking for an honest debate. Right now, it's pretty obvious you aren't.
 
If I understood correctly, this walking marriage is not only "permissible" among the Mosuo people, but indeed "obligatory". Other options not permitted for members of the Mosuo community.

In comparison, Guinea Bissau has a small and diminishing community where "women choose husbands, who are compelled to marry them".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_Bissau#Matriarchy

Words like "compelled" and "obligatory" and "the only accepted option" should be a red flag to any critically thinking person. Not least because critical thinking is usually the first thing banned when something is banned.

I'll save Wolfman the trouble and once again suggest you actually read the entire thread. Especially Wolf's last post.

Another aspect of critical thinking is to reckognise if someone is looking for an honest debate. Right now, it's pretty obvious you aren't.
Thanks, Hawk...but I'll respond, very briefly, anyway.

JJM, I honestly haven't got the slightest clue what thread you've been reading, because it obviously isn't this one. I have, in fact, stated in quite a number of posts that walking marriages are not "compelled" or "obligatory". The Mosuo have complete freedom to have a normal 'marriage', if that's what they want to do...and some Mosuo do in fact choose that option, particularly if they leave home. However, most of them prefer the walking marriage system.

I agree with Hawk. Time after time you demonstrate no interest in actually reading or trying to understand what's been written. You reach "conclusions" (like the one in this post) that are completely the opposite of what has been stated. You try to impose your view of what is "correct" or desirable on all people as the standard of what is "normal" or "proper".

This is, absolutely, the last time I'm responding to you. If you want to make more posts, feel free to waste your time doing so; but I'm not going to waste any more time or energy on you.
 
Wolfman,

An absolutely fascinating thread, culture, and subject. I just spent 2.5 hours going through it in detail. I wish I could help in some way, but with no applicable qualifications or money to spare, all I can sat is good luck.

Chris
In contrast to my previous post...thank you very much, Norm, for taking the time to read all of it (I know there's a lot here by this time). I don't really ask or expect people to "help" (although if they can, that's great). This information is put here simply for people to learn about a unique culture.

My main goal here is simple; to inform people about the Mosuo. It is dead certain that if nobody knows about the Mosuo, then nobody will get involved to help. On the other hand, if ten thousand people know about the Mosuo, and only one in a thousand are willing/able to help, that still means ten more people to help us out. I inform you guys here about the Mosuo; then you share it with some friends you think might be interested. They share it with their friends. And, somewhere down the line, it reaches the attention of someone who wants to get involved.

So, despite what you said, you can help. Send emails to friends that you think might be interested, referring them to our website at www.mosuoproject.org. When you're out for drinks with friends, and trying to think of some new, interesting topic to discuss, tell them about the Mosuo (in my experience, the moment I start talking about the Mosuo, I've instantly got a captive audience who are almost always fascinated, and it leads to great discussions). It puts you at the center of attention as an interesting guy; and it puts the Mosuo into the awareness of a few more people.
 
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This continues to be an educational thread.

First I learned about the Mosou. Then I learned how to use this board's Ignore List feature.
 
[humorous digression]
On the topic of using this as a conversation-starter when you're out with friends...I'll share a piece of information which perhaps is not entirely 'politically correct', but which I'm sure will nevertheless be appreciated by a number of the guys here.

That is, I've found that discussing the Mosuo is a fantastic strategy to use on a first date, or with a woman that you've just met.

Consider this: you meet a woman, you're getting along fairly well, then at some point you say, "You know, I really like you, but I'm not into commitment or marriage, or anything like that. I think that while we like each other, of course we should stay together; but if one or both of us change our minds some day, we should be free to go our separate ways." Of course, there are some women who'd have no problem with that; but in my experience, the majority of women would react rather negatively.

But try this: tell them that you've just learned about this fascinating group in China where the women are in charge. The women are the head of the house, and make all the decisions. And more than that, the women never get married; they can simply choose and change partners as they please.

Now, here's the thing; in 90% of the cases where I talk about this, the women immediately respond very positively! Same product; different presentation. In the former case, I'm perceived as a chauvinistic jerk who's afraid of commitment; in the latter case, I'm perceived as a caring individual who is open to new ideas and sensitive to women's issues.
[/humorous digression]
 
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Going to live for a month in a village of a matriarchal minority in the Himalayas -- $1200

Setting up a non-profit organization to help that minority -- $3000

Building schools to improve education for that minority -- $20,000



Being able to do all this, and score points with the chicks -- Priceless
 
Beware of too much education or contact with the western world, or romantic Hollywood movies and such.

:duck:
 
Have I told you lately that you're pretty cool, Wolfman? No rule against helping people AND scoring some honeys...

Hawk: Have I told you lately that I'm proud to call myself your groupie?
 

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