A world without marriage

[Schneibster]

Fascinating, Wolfman. I can understand your respect for this culture; you are doing good, and I hope you do well.

 

[Caius Textor]

First of all, I think you´re doing a very respectable job, Wolfman. I was particularly interested in the linguistic effort your project is engaged in.
That aside:

I love to know more about different cultures because it helps to make clearer who and what mankind as a whole is. The particular cultures arising everywhere show us what humans can and can´t do, what happens and what never happens. It helps to understand ourselves.

I might admire how this or that culture faces a particular human problem, but I am VERY skeptical of any atempt at emulating these practices. I believe that each culture has problems/advantages based on how they are as a whole; it´s difficult to pinpoint what exactly is the cause of that, even in the over-anylised, over-studied western societies, let alone a small, poorly documented one (with no disrespect to your and other´s work with them).

Also, yourself have pointed the many problems (and potencial problems, like STDs) they suffer, so I don´t see how their society as a whole has any kind of advantage over any other.
Their practices regarding mariage seems deeply rooted on their ancestral practices in other social "areas" such as producing riches, job division, etc. It works in that framework and we lack the proper tools of analisys to know if it would work in any other (I´m not a cultural relativist).

Western society (religious bigots apart) is already learning the most valuable tool of all: we can look at ourselves and change by our own means. Self-correction.
I´m no anthropologist, so correct me if I´m wrong: looking at your own habits and customs and judging them seems to be THE most frequent taboo in any society. We are moving past that stage.

Bottom line? I don´t see why we should try a compromise. Maybe someday we will arrive at the same "conclusion" the Mosuo have regarding marriage. But let that be by our own hands.

 

[Wolfman]

Caius,

Actually, I think I'd agree almost 100% with what you said. It is not my intention in any way to promote the idea that Western culture should adopt Mosuo culture or practices. In fact, much of my work focuses on opposing people who seek to present inaccurate, idealized versions of Mosuo culture and use that as an argument for doing the same things in the West (primarily lesbian/feminist groups) (and no, I have no problems with lesbians or feminists in general, only with those who seek to distort or misrepresent Mosuo culture in the pursuit of their own personal agendas).

I believe that knowing about and understanding Mosuo culture (and, for that matter, and other culture) can be very valuable in that it can present alternative perspectives that we might not otherwise consider, and it can cause us to look at and question certain presuppositions we have within our own cultures. For example, most people I know would, as an initial reaction, dismiss as utterly ridiculous and unrealistic a culture in which fathers had no responsibility for their children, but rather were responsible for their sisters' children. Yet the Mosuo (and a few other cultures) do just this.

Seeking to inform people about the Mosuo does not mean seeking to proselytize them to become like the Mosuo. As I've mentioned in several different posts here, I think it would actually be pretty much impossible to transplant many aspects of Mosuo culture into Western culture.

On the flip side of that, I think it is wrong to assume that outside cultures are superior to Mosuo culture, and that therefore the Mosuo should change; but I do believe the Mosuo should have the opportunity to learn about and understand other cultures, and to contast that with their own. And then choose for themselves if they want to change, or stay the same.

My perspective on both sides is pretty much the same. I'm not trying to make anyone change. Just providing a better avenue for discussion, communication, and cooperation between those different groups.

 

[Caius Textor]

So, for example, when I was explaining viruses and bacteria to him, at first he was just overwhelmed, found it beyond comprehension. Then, at one point, I said, "Well, you can't see ghosts, spirits, or gods, but you believe in them, right?". His response was not what I'd expected -- "Oh, so you mean this is just your version of ghosts and spirits!". That was not what I meant...but it provided a convenient hook that allowed him to incorporate what I was telling him into his faith. By the same token, when I talked about medicines, vaccines, etc., he remained resistant and uncomprehending until I equated medical treatments with the ceremonies he does to defeat evil spirits.

Thus, his actual understanding of "medicine" is rather comical (from our perspective)...his view on it is that medicine is basically just another religious means of doing what he does: that is, defeat evil spirits with the judicious application of the appropriate ceremonies.

This is just an idea I had now, feel free to go "Duh, of course!" on me:

Instead of comparing medicine with what-looks-like-their-version-of, have you tried comparing it to things in their daily lives that are completely cause-effect? So, instead of explaining our healing method on par with their "healing" method, you could try telling them our medicine is like agriculture, or chopping wood, or even eating or drinking; actions you take to fight specific problems, with obvious result.

That way you can have a cause-effect analogy, and not a healing method one.

Also, have you ever thought of taking a simple, high-school lab microscope? I bet they would like to actually see our "spirits."

 

[Wolfman]

Caius,

First, I don't think that anyone here has asked stupid questions/suggestions, and I appreciate all perspectives and suggestions. They may not always be practical within this specific situation, but even explaining that helps provide more understanding of the culture.

In regards to the "cause-and-effect" thing, its difficult. It is not enough to tell them there is a cause-and-effect, I'd have to show it to them. But for many of them, in their own personal experiences, they've seen that at least sometimes when the Daba does his thing, people get better; but most of the the time when people go to the hospital, they die anyway (and after spending every cent the family has to do so).

From our 'logical' outside perspective, the reasons for this are obvious -- many of the medical conditions that the Daba does his ceremonies for simply disappear on their own (or a placebo effect may help, also). Whereas people often go the hospital only when it is too late, as a last-ditch option.

But from their perspective, how are you going to convince them to spend everything the family has for treatments that all evidence indicates don't work, in favor of traditional ceremonies that both their parents and religious leaders tell them work, and are also quite cheap? Their cause-and-effect experience, on a practical, daily level, is that Daba ceremonies have a higher rate of 'curing' people than hospitals do.

Again, change in this regard is necessarily going to be very slow, and is going to come about primarily by focusing on the younger generation...on educating them early, giving them fundamental knowledge such as this, so that when they get older and become decision makers, they'll consider this as a more serious, viable option.

In regards to the microscopes, again, that will work with the younger generation, and is something we hope to focus on in our educational projects. But for the older generation, it is doubtful that it would make much difference at all. Even if you can prove that bacteria exist...how do you "prove" that such incredibly tiny creatures can kill something as big as a human?

 

[Caius Textor]

Thanks for the reply. I see you go a long way to get your ideas clearly across, and that is a very fine quality. We do see eye to eye on this.
I was actually with an older post in mind (back on page 2 when you said something about compromise), I surely don´t think you are trying to convert us into Mosuonism. Or the other way around.

I do believe that if any culture is to be considered inferior or superior, a specific one can´t be taken as measuring unit. Either we have objective criteria for that or nothing at all.

ETA (Concerning the cause-effect thing) You have a pretty difficult job there. I think you know very well what you´re doing, specially given the carefull approach you take. Those are very good reasons not to do what I thought was simple and easy. I guess I would be pretty frustrated doing your job. So congratulations again!

 

[Wolfman]

A new topic:

During one of my visits, I also learned something else new. In all the literature I've read about the Mosuo, and all the discussions I've had with anthropologists who've studied the Mosuo, I've been uniformly told that the Mosuo have no marriage ceremonies. This is partly what makes them unique...there are other cultures in which marriage is not necessarily expected, but there is always some sort of marriage ceremony for people who want to get married.

During the visit in question, I had requested that I be given a proper Mosuo name; however, this is not a simple as it might seem. Names are very important, and have significant power within the Mosuo culture. The Daba priest must go through an elaborate ritual, and do various calculations that incorporate your date/time of birth, your mother's date/time of birth, and your grandmother's date/time of birth. In my case, it took the Daba about three hours, and tons of rituals and chanting, to bequeath on me the Mosuo name of Dashi Nombu (which was very cool).

However, when he finished this ceremony, he told me that he was heading off to another village to perform a marriage ceremony! This kinda' caught me off guard, and I asked what he was talking about; I told him I'd been told that there were no marriage ceremonies in the Mosuo culture/religion.

He replied that they were very rare, but they do happen. I had no chance to talk with him further at that time, so had to leave it at that. I later contacted an anthropologist friend, who's spent years with the Mosuo, who admitted she had never heard of such a thing. However, she did say that occasionally, there may be a situation where a woman wants to leave her home (or is kicked out of her home), and must start a new home on her own. Lacking the support of brother or other family in this new home, she will invite a man to come and actually live with her, and be her 'husband'. They will be the founders of this new family (one of the most famous books about the Mosuo, "Leaving Mother Lake", which I would highly recommend to everyone, tells the story of a young Mosuo girl who came from a family in just this situation; her mother had left home, and started a new home on her own).

Anyway, she was unaware of any specific rituals or ceremonies surrounding this, but said she suspected that it would be something of this nature that the Daba was referring to.

The next time I go there, I intend to follow up on this and clarify exactly what kind of ceremony this is, and when/how it is used.

 

[Wolfman]

I guess I would be pretty frustrated doing your job.

Oh, at times this work almost breaks my heart...it can be very disheartening and depressing, as well as being very rewarding. Consider the two following examples:

* In order to convince children and parents of the value of education, you need to instill some kind of 'dream' or 'vision' of the future. Not the way things are today, but the way things could be if they got more education. But the truth is, even if we're successful in convincing them to continue, probably 90% of those kids will end up not being accepted into high school or university, and will derive no quantifiable benefit from it. It is incredibly difficult to build up hopes and dreams, knowing that many people will not reach them; it is even more difficult comforting students who are bawling their eyes out because for the past 5 years they've put everything they have into being a good student, and they then discover that it wasn't good enough, and they won't be able to study any more.

Yet, without building that sense of hopes and dreams, it is virtually impossible to get any of the kids to pursue an education...and the 10% that are capable of getting through and achieving a higher education would be lost, also.

* At times, it can be incredibly gratifying to the ego to be perceived as the guy who is doing so much to "save" the Mosuo. I am a hero to many of these people, and enjoy a level of respect there that I've never experienced anywhere else. But, there is very much a balance to that which keeps me from getting too swelled a head.

Consider -- every time I go there, everyone knows me. A family who lost everything they had in a fire, and are entirely destitute, come to me crying, begging for money to rebuild their home. I have to say no. A family that has worked hard to build a small hotel, but doesn't have enough money to finish it (and will lose everything if they can't finish it), come to me to ask for money to complete the job. And I have to say no.

It often seems that, rather then telling people what we can do to help them, I end up spending most of my time telling people why I can't help them. I wish I could help every single one of them...but we don't have the resources to do that, not right now.

Even worse, I have to do a kind of ethical triage on such requests. Helping an individual family in a time of crisis is incredibly heart-warming...but it provides no long-term benefit to the Mosuo as a group. And when we have such limited resources, most of our focus must be primarily on using our funds in the way that provides the greatest benefit to the greatest number of people. Which, again, means that all too often I have to tell people in desperate need that yes, we have money, but no, we can't give it to you.

There are occasional spots of sunlight in this, of course. When we do complete a project that provides a benefit to the entire community, such as supporting a school, or building a training center, its an incredible rush to see how grateful the people are, and how much good is accomplished through it. And for the needs of individuals, while we often cannot assign our organization's funds to individuals, I do my best to make other people aware when such things happen, and occasionally I'll get a donor who will want to make a donation specifically to help that individual...in which case I'm more than happy to be the one delivering the good news.

This work is far harder, and far more emotionally wearing, than I'd ever anticipated when I began. The times I've been reduced almost to tears would be pretty much as numerous as the times I've felt an overwhelming sense of accomplishment and pride. I just keep telling myself that, as our organization grows and our resources increase, hopefully the number of times I have to say, "No" will decrease, and the times I can say, "Yes, we can help you" will increase.

 

[Hokulele]

Like most other people who have posted here, I would like to thank you for sharing this. I also have a question. Have you ever been concerned that the foundation may someday come to replace/conflict with the system of matriarchs that is currently in place? In other words, do you find people coming to you or your group for answers first?

 

[Wolfman]

Like most other people who have posted here, I would like to thank you for sharing this. I also have a question. Have you ever been concerned that the foundation may someday come to replace/conflict with the system of matriarchs that is currently in place? In other words, do you find people coming to you or your group for answers first?

Actually, this is one of the few areas in which I don't have any real concerns! First, the key leaders of our organization (the ones who worked with me to set it up, and who have the most influence) are almost all women, and two of them are matriarchs of their own families.

In addition, there is no such thing in Mosuo culture as just have "a meeting" to decide something; the process is considerably more elaborate than that (and this was something I had to learn the hard way). Essentially, at one meeting, we will have a discussion of different ideas, different possibilities. But if I try to get them to make an actual decision, choose a specific direction, I'll face nothing but frustration. Why? Because they must go home and discuss it with their families, and their communities, first. Just as property is communal, so are decisions.

At first I didn't understand what was happening, and was incredibly frustrated; but once I figured it out, and understood how the process worked, I came to embrace it, because it means that in a very real way, it is the Mosuo people as a whole who are guiding our committee. It isn't an isolated group in an ivory tower making pronouncements that affect everyone else; before my committee is actually ready to make a concrete decision, the issues have been discussed and debated by numerous people within the community, and you can be certain that the matriarchs have had their say. Its slow...but it works.

A note about our finances here, because this is also an issue in regards to matriarchal influence. Finances are the one area where I wield significant power...in fact, I have sole signing power over our bank account, and can withhold money from any project. In reality, if the majority of the committee is agreed on a particular project, I will not withhold money, even if I don't personally agree with that decision.

BUT -- and this is a big "BUT" -- this arrangement is absolutely necessary, and was a point of considerable deliberation and discussion when we first set up the organization. Because, in Mosuo culture, if a family member (or in particular the matriarch) requests something, it is virtually impossible to say no. So, just envisage a situation where some of the Mosuo committee members have the authority to disburse funds. Then their mother comes to them and tells them that she wants them to give her part of that money to pay for their childrens' education, or for vital medical care. It would be impossible for them to refuse, and the result would be that funds were routinely misappropriated for personal use.

By giving me sole power, they have deniability. When friends or family members make such requests, they can simply say, "I want to help, but it is not my decision, John has control over the money".

The good thing is, this avoids the issue of abuse of funds, corruption, etc. The bad thing is, it means that I'm the guy who always ends up being the one who has to say "No"...even though the reason for that decision is the policies and priorities that have been set by the committee.

 

[Hokulele]

Wow, the more I learn about the culture, the more interesting it sounds. Thanks for the answer. Another question, does each family tend to have a "representative" when it comes to meetings and community decisions? In other words, is someone designated to formally represent the family to the community at large?

 

[Wolfman]

Wow, the more I learn about the culture, the more interesting it sounds. Thanks for the answer. Another question, does each family tend to have a "representative" when it comes to meetings and community decisions? In other words, is someone designated to formally represent the family to the community at large?

Well, in regards to our committee, no, there's nothing so deliberate or organized. Like most Asian cultures, this is a culture in which 'harmony' is greatly prized, particularly in relationships. So when making decisions, people tend to talk around the issue a lot, and feel others out, until they get a sense of what the majority consensus is...and then they will make the decision that most people already agree with, and everyone else will agree.

Like I said, it can be a slow process. And this doesn't mean that there is never conflict or disagreement, but when that does happen, it tends to be quite over the top, fists-flying-while-cursing-vehemently types of disagreements (fortunately, I've been witness to few of these).

However, within a community, there may occasionally be town meetings in which everyone meets together to make important decisions. I've only been witness to this personally once (I told the story previously, about when money was stolen from me and they had a 'town meeting' to determine the thief's fate), and while there don't seem to be many 'officially designated' representatives, everyone seems to know and acknowledge who the key people are. The matriarchs will also have a significant say, and even if they don't speak up directly themselves, they may be directing someone else behind the scenes.

 

[Earthborn]

In my case, it took the Daba about three hours, and tons of rituals and chanting, to bequeath on me the Mosuo name of Dashi Nombu (which was very cool).

Cool. Does that mean anything, or is it just a random arrangement of syllables? And if you think it is just a random arrangement of syllables, are you really really sure of that? We all know the stories about anthropologists being given names by locals that are actually profane. Who knows, maybe you said 'no' so many times that you are now officially known as 'cheap bastard'

 

[Wolfman]

Cool. Does that mean anything, or is it just a random arrangement of syllables? And if you think it is just a random arrangement of syllables, are you really really sure of that? We all know the stories about anthropologists being given names by locals that are actually profane. Who knows, maybe you said 'no' so many times that you are now officially known as 'cheap bastard'

Oh, my Mosuo name, "Dashi Nombu", most definitely has a meaning (the meaning of the name is of great importance to them), and in this case, its been confirmed by numerous independent sources that it does not mean anything like "cheap bastard"

Now, keep in mind, I can at best only hope to give an approximate translation...this is a name in the Mosuo language, but the meaning was explained in Chinese language, and I'm now using English to explain it. But, as a general explanation:

"Dashi" means unswerving...someone who, once they set their eyes on a particular goal, will pursue that goal doggedly until it is finished, no matter what obstacles they may face. "Nombu" is a little more complicated...it means some sort of mythical jewel that is spewed out of a dragon's mouth, and is supposed to be harder than diamond. But basically, it means a combination of "indestructible" and "valuable".

Given how important names are to the Mosuo, I'm sure that the Daba had some specific intent in choosing this name; when I tell it to other Mosuo, they all say it is a very good, strong name. I'm sure that he was thinking at least somewhat of what kind of name would be suitable for a leader of an organization like ours. It turns out that one of my Mosuo friends has exactly the same name, also, which kinda' makes us "brothers". And I'm now a kind of honorary family member of all Mosuo who bear the family name "Dashi" (since they put the family name first, and the given name last).

 

[Wolfman]

Here's a website which is a very good example of the kind of misinformation about the Mosuo that we're always seeking to address. As is unfortunately common with such things, it is on a website that deals with issues of women's rights and sexism, so it is understandable why they might prefer this kind of article; but what is worse is that it apparently comes from ABC.com. A few excerpts:

The Mosuo people perform their courtship dance, when women traditionally choose a male companion for the night or a year or a lifetime — and the men have no say in the matter.

There aren't really "courtship dances"...the Mosuo simply enjoy dancing and singing, and will use it as an opportunity to pair up with someone else. But someone who does not seek a partner will still dance; and there are many other ways to choose a partner than in these dances.

But worse, is the statement that "the men have no say in the matter". That's just complete rubbish. First, the men can say, "No." Second, as I've described elsewhere, there are many ways for a man to take the initiative and indicate interest in a woman. The one way in which this is partly true is that only the women have private bedrooms (men sleep in communal areas), so while both sides have equal rights to say no, and both sides can initiate an encounter, only the woman can actually provide a place to meet...so she does retain greater control in that way.

It may sound bizarre to a Western visitor, but anthropologists say because the men have no power, control no land, and play subservient sexual roles, they have nothing to fight over — making this one of the most harmonious societies on the planet. The Mosuo people, estimated to number around 50,000, have no word for war, no murders, no rapes, no jails.

THIS is the claim that really gets my dander up. What complete and utter bollocks. I know of no reputable anthropologists who make these claims -- only those amateurs who come in with their own agenda, spend a few days/weeks, and then leave with their predetermined conclusions still firmly in place.

It is true that men don't control the land...but they certainly have power, and an equal voice in family issues. In fact, the oldest male in the house usually enjoys the second position of power (second to the matriarch), and will be closely involved in all family decisions. That they play "subservient sexual roles" is an absolutely ridiculous claim, and plays more to the Amazonian Warrior myth than to anything reflecting reality.

And they have nothing to fight over? No words for war? I was only with the Mosuo for three days before they told me stories of past wars they've had...wars with other minorities, wars with the Tibetans, etc. In fact, they took me to a large valley that they say nobody will live in because they slaughtered more than 1000 Tibetan soldiers there in a battle some 500 years ago, and the ghosts still haunt it. And I've already discussed the rest (no murder, no rape, etc.) above.

During the height of Mao Tse-tung's communist rule in the 1960s and '70s, China's hard-liners forced the Mosuo people to abandon their practice of "tisese" and adopt the practice of monogamy. But when China relaxed its tight social controls during the post-Mao era, the Mosuo people reverted back to their traditional sexual practices.

Partly true...partly not. The Chinese gov't most definitely made efforts to stop the practice of walking marriages, and declared it illegal for quite some time. And they outlawed the training of new Daba priests. But they did not make the matriarchal system illegal, and Mosuo women continued to hold considerable power throughout this period. Today, the laws regarding walking marriages and not training Daba priests have been struck down, and these are no longer major issues (although some of the damage from these past policies still exists).

But this article fails entirely to mention what I discussed previously, that there was also a patriarchal noble class among the Mosuo; and that it was the Chinese gov't's abolition of landlords, and the entire feudal system, that effectively destroyed the patriarchal aspect of the Mosuo, and left them an almost entirely matriarchal culture.

Other information in the article -- particularly that about the developing sex industry, and the dangers it poses -- is pretty accurate. But if you go to Google, and type in "Mosuo", the link to this article will appear in the very first page of results. Fortunately, the link to our organization appears before it; and the link to the Wikipedia article (which was also written by me, and links to our site) is number one. So, hopefully, we will gradually be able to deal with this misinformation, and help people get a more accurate understanding of the Mosuo culture.

 

[Darth Rotor]

Oh, and in regards to things like clothes, technology, etc....

Two thoughts on this fantastic discussion.

1. How ya gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Shanghai? The short answer is, you don't, or can't, and they will adapt in some way. Your efforts to help them keep as much control of the transformation is admirable, and is to me empowerment at its best.

2. About the fatalism, and "control of large spiritual forces," it seems their initial reaction bordered on "be careful of what you wish for, since you are sure to get it."

Some ideas seem to have universal application, though I imagine you are pleased to see that after some reservations, the leadership/councils chose to grab the bull by the balls horns.

If all you can achieve is a preservation of the language, stories, and cultural baseline, given that within a couple of generations the likelihood is that the modern/outside world will prevail over the indigenous culture, your effort will have been worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy. (The Atheist's link was a nice counterpoint to the "inside the box" story you have provided.)

I have some reservations about the social model scaling up, for the reasons that communes don't scale up all that well. Your treatment of that was well put.

Your hypothetical of the Han all fading away, and two centuries of Muosuo growth into the vacuum of course had to ignore . . . the rest of the world. I'm thinking the ambitious and industrious Viet Namese would steal a march on the Muosuo.

Best wishes.

DR

 

[Wolfman]

Two thoughts on this fantastic discussion.

1. How ya gonna keep them on the farm once they've seen Shanghai? The short answer is, you don't, or can't, and they will adapt in some way. Your efforts to help them keep as much control of the transformation is admirable, and is to me empowerment at its best.

Thank you...very much!

2. About the fatalism, and "control of large spiritual forces," it seems their initial reaction bordered on "be careful of what you wish for, since you are sure to get it."

That would be a Western approximation, but really doesn't get into how much this view of life and 'fate' affects Asian philosophy in general, and Chinese in particular. The Mosuo believe very strongly that every aspect of their lives is mandated by the gods. They believe in free will -- you can reject what the gods have decided -- but doing so only brings pain and suffering. Thus, you do not take any action until you are sure that it is what the gods want you to do.

The problem is that the best indication of the gods' favor is to take an action, and have it be successful (which is what I did when I started this organization). But you can't take an action unless you're sure it has the god's favor. And then throw in the whole Tibetan Buddhist influence, and the idea that "desire" is a bad thing, one should simply accept the way things are, and abandon any desire for change...change will happen if it happens. Fortunately, now that it appears I have the gods' blessings on this idea, getting support for other ideas is much easier. Basically, the Mosuo suggest and debate an idea; bring it up in our committee; then ask for my opinion or advice. If I say I support it, that's basically as good as saying that they have the gods' blessings on it. So we can move ahead full steam (or the Mosuo approximation of full steam, which to me sometimes seems more like 1/4 steam).

I want to emphasize, yes, there are frustrations and problems...there are times that problems and delays that seem to me entirely avoidable instead put us weeks or months behind schedule. But I love the Mosuo very deeply, and have phenomenal respect for them. They come from an entirely different world than me, and the way they perceive that world, the way they make decisions about that world, will inevitably be completely different. But not only are things getting done, it is the Mosuo themselves who are getting it done. We're laying a foundation, and no matter how slow that process may be, it is a very solid foundation that I have every expectation will last for many years to come.

If all you can achieve is a preservation of the language, stories, and cultural baseline, given that within a couple of generations the likelihood is that the modern/outside world will prevail over the indigenous culture, your effort will have been worth it. Anything beyond that is gravy. (The Atheist's link was a nice counterpoint to the "inside the box" story you have provided.)

I agree completely; I will not even try to make predictions about what the situation of the Mosuo will be 50 or 100 or 200 years later...worst case scenario, they will have forgotten their language, will know little or nothing of their culture or history, and will be essentially indistinguishable from any other Chinese. But at some point, there are going to be some of them who are going to want to know about their ancestors' heritage, their history, their language, etc. And we will at least have the information there, preserved for those future generations.

At best -- and this is what I hope for -- the Mosuo will still retain their own language, preserved and encouraged by the development of a written form taught to them from primary school. They will still retain a strong cultural identity, and although they certainly will have changed/evolved somewhat, will still retain a unique 'Mosuo' character. They will be in charge of their own lives, controlling and benefiting from whatever businesses/industries they have developed. And they'll be spreading out across China, and to other parts of the world, introducing more people to their culture...and bringing new knowledge and experiences back to their home communities to share and benefit from.

Your hypothetical of the Han all fading away, and two centuries of Muosuo growth into the vacuum of course had to ignore . . . the rest of the world. I'm thinking the ambitious and industrious Viet Namese would steal a march on the Muosuo.

lol -- I thought of about half a million problems with that hypothetical right after I posted it, and had to force myself to refrain from going back and ruining it entirely with a whole slew of clarifications, conditional statements, and alternate possibilities.

 

[Roswell-Perseis]

They're rather convoluted questions. Perhaps what you're asking is what do the Mosuo really need? (Which Wolfman pretty much answered already.)

I was asking about what sociologists call socio-economic stratification. It is difficult for me to percieve if or to what degree that exists in non-Western societies. I was not asking about donations.

I think it's a bit odd to say "if not for the invention of medicine...". We do not even treat animals that way - depriving them of care. Or, we try not to deprive them of care. Furthermore, medicine exists. Why send the Mosuo back to the dark ages?

What are you talking about? I asked that had certain development not occurred would the Mosuo percieve themselves as needy (if that is how they percieve themselves now). I was not advocating taking things from them but trying to understand their perspective.

My question was appropriate for what I was asking and I have no idea what you are trying to say to me.

ETA: Are you inferring that I'm a biggot because I want to ask questions about a culture I don't understand?

 

[Wolfman]

R-P,

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding; Orph and I are old friends from another forum (several other forums, actually), and she's the one who first invited me to come here. During the course of this discussion, one member launched a major personal attack on me that threatened to derail this entire discussion. I made the mods aware of it, and at the same time sent a PM to her, requesting her support.

However, by the time she got my PM and came to check it out, the mods had already removed the offending posts, and returned the forum to normality. So all she saw was your most recent post, and even though it wasn't what I was referring to, she reacted to defend me.

That brief period of time -- and subsequent deletion of the relevant posts -- created a bit of discontinuity, and has resulted in some misunderstandings. I hope that this clears things up, and that we can all return to the normal, friendly, intelligent discussion we've all been enjoying so much.

 

[Orphia Nay]

R-P,

I think there's been a slight misunderstanding; Orph and I are old friends from another forum (several other forums, actually), and she's the one who first invited me to come here. During the course of this discussion, one member launched a major personal attack on me that threatened to derail this entire discussion. I made the mods aware of it, and at the same time sent a PM to her, requesting her support.

However, by the time she got my PM and came to check it out, the mods had already removed the offending posts, and returned the forum to normality. So all she saw was your most recent post, and even though it wasn't what I was referring to, she reacted to defend me.

That brief period of time -- and subsequent deletion of the relevant posts -- created a bit of discontinuity, and has resulted in some misunderstandings. I hope that this clears things up, and that we can all return to the normal, friendly, intelligent discussion we've all been enjoying so much.

Exactly. Thankyou Wolfman.

Roswell-Perseis, I'm very sorry I got my back up about your post, and did not digest your questions appropriately. It was a misunderstanding but also a failure to comprehend your questions on my behalf.

I didn't realise the insulting posts had been deleted, so when Wolfman told me a nutter had just posted in this thread, I was seeing red and looking for an argument. Again, I apologise.

In my very weak defence, which I abandon and apologise for, I did tell Wolfman I didn't think your post (or 'the nutter's post' as I thought) was as bad as he described. D'uh.