A whine about depression

[Jon.]

Re: Re: Re: A whine about depression

Depression can be:

(1) : a state of feeling sad
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=depression


...and something as simple as a puppy can lift it.


Clinical labels for Mood Disorders use terms such as major depressive disorder, dysthymic disorder, bipolar disorder, cyclothymic disorder, seasonal affective disorder, and postpartum depression.
http://www.allaboutdepression.com/dia_01.html

The fact that people do not use the proper terms to make a distinction, and choose to lump them all under the heading of 'depression' is their failure to communicate, not Randi's.

Given that the context was a discussion of Tom Cruise's stupidity regarding clinical depression, I don't think I was wrong in seeing that as the meaning behind what Randi wrote.

I know he meant to be lighthearted, and I don't mind a laugh at my expense one bit (I always say if you can't laugh at yourself, you're not allowed to laugh at anyone else), but I still say that Randi was trivializing clinical depression.

 

[Jon.]

Re: Re: A whine about depression

Jon,

I'm probably a bit late with this, having being dragged off on a tangent, but...

This is something I just can't understand.
I remember someone telling me he was so depressed he couldn't set the table. I thought he was exaggerating, but he was not. His wife went to work and then came home and cleaned the house, did the washing, and cooked the meal. I thought to myself: "Get off yer friggin' ass, man." But he literally could not do it. He slept most of the day and then, when he got up, he couldn't do a thing. The incredible thing was that his wife did understand and, uncomplainingly, supported him throughout his illness.
I still don't understand it. And, in a way, I hope I never will.

I hope you never will, either. It's not something I would wish on my worst enemy.

I also got through thanks to a great deal of support from my wife and my parents (my father has been hospitalized 3 times for depression). If not for them, I know I wouldn't be here now.

This is the other thing I have trouble with. When I feel a little depressed I either find something meaningful to involve myself in or I find something to amuse me or make me laugh. I guess that is the difference between depression and a Depressive Disorder.

Exactly. It's kind of like the difference between feeling sluggish from eating too much dessert and going into a diabetic coma. When a person is really depressed, clinically I mean, "find[ing] something to amuse [him] or make [him] laugh" is impossible. A depressive just doesn't have the capacity to enjoy doing things that a non-depressed person has.

 

[crimresearch]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A whine about depression

Given that the context was a discussion of Tom Cruise's stupidity regarding clinical depression, I don't think I was wrong in seeing that as the meaning behind what Randi wrote.

I know he meant to be lighthearted, and I don't mind a laugh at my expense one bit (I always say if you can't laugh at yourself, you're not allowed to laugh at anyone else), but I still say that Randi was trivializing clinical depression.

I don't think that Randi actually believes clinical depression can be cured merely by offering treats, which is why I don't assume that he was still talking about clinical depression when he made that statement.

YMMV

 

[tkingdoll]

Re: Re: Re: A whine about depression

When a person is really depressed, clinically I mean, "find[ing] something to amuse [him] or make [him] laugh" is impossible. A depressive just doesn't have the capacity to enjoy doing things that a non-depressed person has. [/B]

I don't think that's entirely true, every depressive is different. During very bad depressive periods I sleep for about 16 hours a day and spend the rest on the Playstation or Internet. I can't actually do anything that involves really thinking or moving though.

When I was younger and a Christian, a middle-aged guy in the church had all the outward appearances of beinga happy, ordinary bloke, married and succesful. One day he gassed himself to death in his car, just like that. Turned out he'd been clinically depressed for years but didn't allow any 'symptoms' to show externally. Kind of like a corked bottle I suppose.

 

[BillyJoe]

TKD,

I think you are right.

Your story reminds me of a close friend of my brother's who did the same as your church acquaintance. He had been engaged for some time to a girl who then suddenly announced her engagement to another man.
They had never actually seemed particularly close and he seemed to take her decision very well. He continued to work as normal, continued to build the house he had planned, continued to plan the annual year twelve reunion as he had always done every year since leaving school, continued to attend parties, continued to tell jokes, etc etc etc.
Then, the weekend of the marriage of his ex-fiance to her new beau, he drove into a deserted lane not far away from his home, attached one end of a hose to his exhaust and the other through his side window and quietly passed the last few minutes of his life sitting in his car all alone on a cold winter's night.


My brother and I had attended a party with him the week-end before. Neither of us had suspected a thing.

BJV

 

[tkingdoll]

TKD,

I think you are right.

Your story reminds me of a close friend of my brother's who did the same as your church acquaintance. He had been engaged for some time to a girl who then suddenly announced her engagement to another man.
They had never actually seemed particularly close and he seemed to take her decision very well. He continued to work as normal, continued to build the house he had planned, continued to plan the annual year twelve reunion as he had always done every year since leaving school, continued to attend parties, continued to tell jokes, etc etc etc.
Then, the weekend of the marriage of his ex-fiance to her new beau, he drove into a deserted lane not far away from his home, attached one end of a hose to his exhaust and the other through his side window and quietly passed the last few minutes of his life sitting in his car all alone on a cold winter's night.


My brother and I had attended a party with him the week-end before. Neither of us had suspected a thing.

BJV

That is a sad story, I am sorry.

I guess the question that raises is, is all suicide preceded by depression? A difficult topic, but I would hazard a 'yes', at least in the majority of cases. I have heard about suicide through spite or anger but it is rare.

 

[alfaniner]

Just curious -- does the serious kind feel kind of like wearing all the time one of those lead blankets you get at the dentist when you get your x-rays taken?

 

[Jon.]

Just curious -- does the serious kind feel kind of like wearing all the time one of those lead blankets you get at the dentist when you get your x-rays taken?

Yeah, only it's on your brain. I've also described it as "trying to think through sawdust."

 

[Jon.]

Re: Re: Re: Re: A whine about depression

I don't think that's entirely true, every depressive is different. During very bad depressive periods I sleep for about 16 hours a day and spend the rest on the Playstation or Internet. I can't actually do anything that involves really thinking or moving though.

When I was younger and a Christian, a middle-aged guy in the church had all the outward appearances of beinga happy, ordinary bloke, married and succesful. One day he gassed himself to death in his car, just like that. Turned out he'd been clinically depressed for years but didn't allow any 'symptoms' to show externally. Kind of like a corked bottle I suppose.

I also covered up my depression successfully - even to my wife, who didn't know I was depressed until I called her from the hospital emergency ward.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you may see a depressed person laugh and joke, but they don't really mean it. I know I didn't.

 

[tkingdoll]

Yeah, only it's on your brain. I've also described it as "trying to think through sawdust."

For me it definitely feels 'heavy', in fact early symptoms have a definite physical appearance, my shoulders sag and my head droops because my neck is so damn heavy. I describe this as 'sinking'.

I couldn't disguise it at home because I wear my entire heart/soul/personality on my sleeve. My husband is getting very astute at recognising the beginnings. Happily, though, I haven't had a serious episode for about a year now, and no more shrink OR meds! I don't see that as me 'cured' though, it's similar to recovering alcoholism I think, in that one trigger could set me plummeting again.

I'm not a recovering alcoholic, for the record.

 

[LostAngeles]

See, mine could be described more or less as the ultimate apathy. It isn't wanting nothing, it's not wanting.

And then on top of that, you get the nice, heavy lead apron in the form of having to go out and fake it so you can function somewhat in the world.

 

[tkingdoll]

See, mine could be described more or less as the ultimate apathy. It isn't wanting nothing, it's not wanting.

And then on top of that, you get the nice, heavy lead apron in the form of having to go out and fake it so you can function somewhat in the world.

I think half the battle is managing to function. At least if you're on the 'not wanting' side as opposed to the 'wanting nothing' side, suicide probably wouldn't appeal that much.

At least, I hope not

We have started a little support group! Let's lose some cupcakes for good measure.

 

[LostAngeles]

I think half the battle is managing to function. At least if you're on the 'not wanting' side as opposed to the 'wanting nothing' side, suicide probably wouldn't appeal that much.

At least, I hope not

We have started a little support group! Let's lose some cupcakes for good measure.

It does and it doesn't. I will say the prospect of death is neither frightening nor comforting also.

It's kind of like being empty or hollowed out. I've been trying to find better ways to explain it but it's difficult since it's a ways from where I am now (yet still next door) and it's difficult because it's inherently difficult to explain.

Ah well.

Hey! Where'd my cupcake go?

 

[crimresearch]

Saran wrapped to the couch.

 

[BillyJoe]

That is a sad story, I am sorry.

Yes, for me and my brother, it was very sad. He was an odd-ball character but very friendly and easy going and we enjoyed his company. The surprise for me was when we went to his funeral to hear one relative say "How could he do this to his parents." (he was an only child to relatively elderly parents), and another one say: "Just one of those stupid things he did." (amongst other things he tried to start a rock band but he was not really that good with the guitar).

I guess the question that raises is, is all suicide preceded by depression? A difficult topic, but I would hazard a 'yes', at least in the majority of cases. I have heard about suicide through spite or anger but it is rare.

I have heard of cases of what could be called "accidental suicide". The victim tries to get the attention of a loved one, and puts on a show of attempting suicide - usually an overdose - but the loved one arrives home too late to save them. I think, though, that there has to be some degree of depression present to comtemplate suicide.

I think the worst type of suicide is where one of a pair of erstwhile lovers tells the other he or she wants to move on, and the other, in the emotional turmoil that follows, immediately goes out and suicides - almost on impulse. A few days reflection could have seen a very different outcome in the long run.

BillyJoe

 

[BillyJoe]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A whine about depression

I guess what I'm trying to say is that you may see a depressed person laugh and joke, but they don't really mean it.

But how can you tell then?
With my brother's mate there was perhaps one slight hint at the party the week-end before. My brother is a vet and he was givng us short accounts of cases he had seen recently. His friend at one point said: "At least you can put an animal down if it is too sick". I did momentarliy give him a look. But nothing. He just continued smiling and laughing. Perhaps his non-reaction to my look should have been a warning that all was not well. But we ate venison (this was donated by one of my brothers clients, and was the reason for our party), drank wine, and laughed and joked and felt that life was pretty good.
It's been a long time, but the extreme sadness he must have suffered in silence still gets to me every now and then.

BJ

 

[BillyJoe]

Sorry for three posts in a row, but this reminds me of something...

At least if you're on the 'not wanting' side as opposed to the 'wanting nothing' side, suicide probably wouldn't appeal that much.

I remember reading once that the danger of suicide can be more acute during the early recovery phase when the sufferer is starting to feel less depressed - and therefore less apathetic (less "not wanting") - and therefore more inclined to take action, but not sufficently recovered to take the right action.

Does this ring true for anyone?

BJ

 

[Neutiquam Erro]

Sorry for three posts in a row, but this reminds me of something...

I remember reading once that the danger of suicide can be more acute during the early recovery phase when the sufferer is starting to feel less depressed - and therefore less apathetic (less "not wanting") - and therefore more inclined to take action, but not sufficently recovered to take the right action.

Does this ring true for anyone?

BJ

Well, I've never had suicidal urges, but I do seem to be particularly vulnerable to other destructive behaviors (excessive drinking, eating, and spending binges) during the periods when I am "recovering" from a depressive episode.

Any psychiatrists on board? Is this a common experience among the clinically depressed? I know that certain SSRIs (such as Prozac and Lexapro) have been 'linked' to increased risks for suicide and violent behavior (no, no cites, I've not done my homework). I wonder if this might be another manifestation of the same phenomenon?

 

[cajela]

Gosh, there's a lot of us here who've had real depression. I'm another, and for the record, I think Randi's comment was quite charming and not trivialising in the context in which it was made. My cognitive therapy exercises included "scheduling pleasurable activities", so it's not even bad advice. Though I'll take kittens over puppies, myself.

 

[luchog]

Any psychiatrists on board? Is this a common experience among the clinically depressed? I know that certain SSRIs (such as Prozac and Lexapro) have been 'linked' to increased risks for suicide and violent behavior (no, no cites, I've not done my homework). I wonder if this might be another manifestation of the same phenomenon?

IANAD, but from my own experiences, and information from my therapists, there are a couple of factors involved. In clinical depression cases, the early stages of improvement are considered to be the most "dangerous". A depressive individual may have suicidal ideation, but lacks the energy and motivation to act on it. Early on when the individual begins recovery, energy and motivation return, but the suicidal ideation is still strongly presentl and thus, the risk of suicide attempts at that phase of treatment is considerably higher than prior to treatment.

This may be part of why SSRIs have been linked to suicide; but there is a fairly minor contributing factor. The "side effect" is present also in people who have been misdiagnosed with endogenous depression (which for quite some time was a "fad" diagnosis), and in test subjects who had no such diagnosis. Other effects have included hallucinations, psychosis, violent mood swings (particularly anger/rage moods), and a flattening of affect (a "numbness" or "deadness").

Brain chemisty is something that is still very poorly understood; and messing with it with SSRI antidepressants in the way that many doctors do is akin to trying to play glass chimes with a sledgehammer.