Marquis de Carabas
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2002
- Messages
- 27,071
Heh. I nominate Atlas 'New Guy of the Month'
Tricky
Briefly immortal
Only if you know the secret skeptic handshake. But no need, because I second it too. You have a way with words, Atlas. I look forward to seeing a lot from you.Atlas said:
Lifegazer,
People here have done you the GREAT courtesy in listening to your argument and have answered ALL of them.
Many have even accepted you have a reasonable valid argument in their being a primal cause.
You on the other hand have diligently not answered their counter arguments and not addressed the myriad of other explanations for a primal cause that does not involve a thinking deity.
This diminishes most of the good points you might have made !
I would ask you to ponder just 2 issues .. raised before but needs to be reiterated.
1. The existence of the universe for infinity with no primal cause. It is just as valid as anything else.. impossible by your reasoning.. but then you proposes something equally impossible instead.
2. The lack of any evidence that the primal cause had intelligence. Everything in this Universe has been shown to have a natural unthinking origin.. this implies a natural unthinking primal cause !
People here have done you the GREAT courtesy in listening to your argument and have answered ALL of them.
Many have even accepted you have a reasonable valid argument in their being a primal cause.
You on the other hand have diligently not answered their counter arguments and not addressed the myriad of other explanations for a primal cause that does not involve a thinking deity.
This diminishes most of the good points you might have made !
I would ask you to ponder just 2 issues .. raised before but needs to be reiterated.
1. The existence of the universe for infinity with no primal cause. It is just as valid as anything else.. impossible by your reasoning.. but then you proposes something equally impossible instead.
2. The lack of any evidence that the primal cause had intelligence. Everything in this Universe has been shown to have a natural unthinking origin.. this implies a natural unthinking primal cause !
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
Agreed. Very well summerized and a "10" on execution. And on your, what, sixth post? I third the nomination.Tricky said:
Imo, your post basically amounted to: "okay, your argument might seduce us into actually believing that there might be a God, although we're still not sure and would like to see some miracles please. Also, what does it mean to humanity anyway, unless an awful big miracle occurs and saves our butts?"Atlas said:
That's how it came across to me anyway. You certainly didn't have anything relevant to say about the argument itself. Instead, you try to belittle it by subtly belittling me and the overall purpose/point of the argument.
In this thread, I'd rather concentrate on the argument presented.
It's impossible to change anything until people take the existence of God seriously. Not many in here do.
People here will tell you that I occasionally argue for the absolute unity of mankind and the end of days (as we know them). No more war or borders, etc.. No more inequality. The urge to give, rather than the urge to take for oneself. Blah blah blah.
This is my desire. This is why I try to change mindsets. This is my purpose.
It's not about me - it's about mankind. He has to save himself because God only saves man if man saves man... because God is being man. But man cannot save himself until man knows that he is God. And man cannot know that he is God until somebody shows him that he is God.
I'm here to tell you all that you are God, not man.
Effort/force without an origin... an enforcer? Impossible.Aussie Thinker said:
Attainment from infinite effort, with no origin of effort? Impossible.
It's impossible mate. Use yer common sense.
Intelligence exists where will exists. I did present reason to show why will exists. So which part of that reasoning did you disagree with?
That's not true, is it? Tell this forum what the primal-cause of the universe is then, if not God. I could do with a laff.
Upchurch
Papa Funkosophy
lifegazer said:
Re: Meet your God.
This is why Cantor's sums-of-infinities are irrelevant here, since Cantor's infinities are all found within closed-sets or finite-bodies with origins and ends.
What time does the train arrive at the station if the train's origin is to be found in the infinite past? Answer = never. The train will always remain in the infinite past.
The same argument applies to the present-state of our universe. This post, for example, can be considered a train (of infinite effects) arriving at the station (of your monitor screen). The fact that this train has arrived at the station is an instant proof that it did not originate from the infinite past - from the infinite regression of effects.
If a specific effect = the sum of an infinite number of prior causes (which are really effects themselves), then that effect cannot be summed (cannot be effected), since there is no origin to that sum.Flatworm said:
This is why Cantor's sums-of-infinities are irrelevant here, since Cantor's infinities are all found within closed-sets or finite-bodies with origins and ends.
What time does the train arrive at the station if the train's origin is to be found in the infinite past? Answer = never. The train will always remain in the infinite past.
The same argument applies to the present-state of our universe. This post, for example, can be considered a train (of infinite effects) arriving at the station (of your monitor screen). The fact that this train has arrived at the station is an instant proof that it did not originate from the infinite past - from the infinite regression of effects.
3 is a non-starter, as explained above. And my analysis of what a primal-cause must be has already explained why it is singular (indivisible), so 2 is also no good. So if you disagree with that reasoning, perhaps you will explain why.
CWL
Funkateer
- Joined
- Jul 20, 2002
- Messages
- 1,401
Lifegazer,
A few simple questions so that we may learn exactly what you mean when you use the word "God".
1) When you use the word "God", are you referring to any "God" in particular (i.e. the "Christian God", "Zeus", "Chtullu", etc.)?
2) If the answer to 1) is yes, then which "God" in particular and what are your reasons for choosing that particular "God"?
3) If the answer to 1) is no, then what is your definition of "God" and what are your reasons for choosing that particular definition?
Many thanks in advance.
Edited for typos
A few simple questions so that we may learn exactly what you mean when you use the word "God".
1) When you use the word "God", are you referring to any "God" in particular (i.e. the "Christian God", "Zeus", "Chtullu", etc.)?
2) If the answer to 1) is yes, then which "God" in particular and what are your reasons for choosing that particular "God"?
3) If the answer to 1) is no, then what is your definition of "God" and what are your reasons for choosing that particular definition?
Many thanks in advance.
Edited for typos
Marquis de Carabas
Penultimate Amazing
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2002
- Messages
- 27,071
But God is everything, INDIVISIBLE, if memory serves, what is it, precisely, he needs saving from? And why all the pressure on "man" to do it, specifically that slice of man known as the JREF forum? Aren't dogs God too? Make them do it. Or alfalfa, or igneous rocks. I've got too full a schedule what with keeping the Vampire Wombat fed and my full time hockey watching.
Your argument (which has been debunked on this board countless times) is irrellevant to theism. If there has to be a "primal cause", as you call it, there is no reason that that cause had to be a deity. In addition, God cannot be a "primal cause" since he is a concsious being and therefore his actions must be sequential. Creating the universe is an action which neccessitates a prior action ad infinitum until you reach some sort of origin. Here, your argument for God being a "primal cause" must fail one the very grounds that you've set forth, even if your argument for there being a general "primal cause" may hold up.
RussDill
Philosopher
lifegazer said:
ironclad proof from the great lifegazer himself, he says it is impossible, it must not be true.
What's that I hear? The ice cream truck, why yes it is.
RussDill
Philosopher
Re: Re: Meet your God.
I might point out the example here of counting back from infinity to zero. (Given an infinite amount of time)
The answer, would be after an infinite amount of time. You seem to have a very difficult time grasping number theory, counting, etc
Any reason you give for 3 being a non-starter can also apply to whatever primal-cause you choose. Except you will say, no, it doesn't apply, because it is the primal-cause, hehehe.
lifegazer said:
I might point out the example here of counting back from infinity to zero. (Given an infinite amount of time)
The answer, would be after an infinite amount of time. You seem to have a very difficult time grasping number theory, counting, etc
Any reason you give for 3 being a non-starter can also apply to whatever primal-cause you choose. Except you will say, no, it doesn't apply, because it is the primal-cause, hehehe.
RussDill
Philosopher
Jet Grind said:
Excactly, every argument lifegazer has against something else being a primal cause applies to his primal cause. What thought caused "god" to create the universe? What thought caused that thought, what that occured before that thought, etc, and before that one, and before that one...
Atlas
Master Poster
- Joined
- Jan 31, 2004
- Messages
- 2,223
No, um, you missed it. But, you know, it doesn't surprise me that you would get that... I think that's what you get from every post made. Like only you can help us overcome our fear. It might be noble if it weren't so incorrect.lifegazer said:
Most of these guys think science is an agent of change. They appreciate the electric light and computers and stuff. I'm sure that, like QM, you would have eventually deduced these things from the existence of God, but several thousand years of religion and God didn't. Can you see why the skeptic harbors an element of mistrust?
You are like the priest standing uncomfortably close behind us promising to guide us toward the light. But your whispers sound like, "Wanna see my rudder? I can show you GAAaad."
No Lifegazer, we don't want to see you rudder. Your idea that your 'argument will seduce us' is unseemly to us.
Here again, and I don't doubt you believe this, but you are naked with only a mask of nobility. You describe a utopian Pangea that will exist if only we realize that we are the master race, godmen. Don't you see, even if you are Karl Marx in angel garb, and you succeed, it will be Stalin in a Taliban robe who inherits your world. I know you believe this time it will be different, but you're the only one.
Listen to yourself...
The unkind but apt description... RAVINGS! Twisting, convoluted, ravings. "God only saves man if man saves man...because God is being man" Its a wonderful catch-22. "I'm here to tell you all that you are God, not man." That's perfect. I am a teacup of Omnipotence in a teacup. Or vice versa - I'm not sure.
One last thing you said in your reply to me....
.
That is true. I am sorry about that. In the future I'll try to be more subtle.
God is being man? Man with amnesia and a short lifespan and disease?
LOL, one of the problems with the whole 'Goddidit' concept is that it predicts a much less complex reality than that which actually exists. A universe in which Goddidit is a cartoon, 2-dimensional universe.
LOL, one of the problems with the whole 'Goddidit' concept is that it predicts a much less complex reality than that which actually exists. A universe in which Goddidit is a cartoon, 2-dimensional universe.
http://host.randi.org/vbulletin/sho...&threadid=30781CWL said:
"Behold, your God.
Not just any ol' God. The God. The daddy of all Gods. The unsurpassable God of Gods...
Omnipotent. God has all power. God effects all force... all creation.
Omniscient. God knows how to do anything.
Omnipresent. God is everywhere and nowhere, everytime and no-time. God, therefore, by default, is expressing itself as all things.
Good & evil are potentials existing within God itself.
God is a singularity of being - without beginning or end. Without position or momentum, until God creates it so, through perception of space & time.
You name it, God creates it for ya. Roll up roll up and meet the God of Gods. On your knees heathens."
God becomes everything because God is [existence].
I'll let you decide which religions this definition applies to.