A universe with God.

[Iacchus]

Yes, this is the major point I was replying to. It will make a difference, even if you are not aware of it. To require that you be around to hear the nice things they say about you is ultimately egotistical and selfish.

How so? Are you saying that as spirits we would be "listening in" on conversations about us? ... As if we didn't have anything better to do, like get on with our spiritual lives?

That strikes me as anthropocentric and arrogant. Of course, there are many definitions for "experience" and "consciousness". May people think that lower creatures, such as plants, do not have consciousness. Does that mean they don't "experience" sunlight?

Arrogance? Give it up!

Actually, I think everything that's alive experiences consciousness to some degree, beginning at the cellular level, otherwise we couldn't even extend our awareness down to our little toe.

Wrong. Depends on how you define them. See above.

I hate to tell you this, but unless you "know" that you're here, you are aware of nothing, including reality.

It indeed would be something. It would violate many established laws of physics. And while it might be interesting to speculate on such things, it is in no way established that consciousness survives the death of the brain. Quite the opposite. First of all, you have to establish what consciousness is. You might use one of the dictionary definitions like;

Do you mean to tell me "you" don't know that you exist?

Now, try to establish which of these definitions can be definately shown to exist without the presence of a human brain. You might believe that some do, but you cannot show it. Thus, the survival of consciousness after death is utterly speculative, and indeed violates most of what we know to be true about consciousness.

Now, I would appreciate it if you would answer this question, since you have ignored my previous statements on it.

Do radio waves exist outside of a radio?

"Is it more moral to do good for the joy of doing good or to do good in hope of some reward?"

But what are morals, and where do they come from?

Yes, this is one of those questions we need to ask ourselves if we're to transcend the whole affair.

 

[Iacchus]

why do you assume consciousness has to go anywhere? Where does a dream go when you forget it?

Yes, where does it go? And weren't you conscious when you were dreaming? Who, or what were you, in relation to the others in your dream? And where did they go?

 

[RussDill]

Yes, where does it go? And weren't you conscious when you were dreaming? Who, or what were you, in relation to the others in your dream? And where did they go?

They are now in the past. Also, the only concious being in my dream was me. Just like who I was 10 years ago. Are you a different person than you were 10 years ago? Where did that person go?

 

[RussDill]

Why do you people insist on being so dense!

I definately would have to say I feel that way about you sometimes. So closed minded to even asking the question about natural probability.

 

[Tricky]

How so? Are you saying that as spirits we would be "listening in" on conversations about us? ... As if we didn't have anything better to do, like get on with our spiritual lives?

I'm saying nothing of the sort. It is you that is making that contention. You are saying that after death, your consciousness somehow appreciates what you have done in life, or else, what would be the point of it? I am merely pointing out the selfishness of such a position. You want your deeds to be appreciated after you are gone. Can't you be satisfied that they are rembembered by those who are left alive? Why must you invoke a spiritual something to indulge your own ego?

Arrogance? Give it up!

What else could you call it? You say that consciousness is the only thing that allows us to experience reality, but you are asserting this never having experienced any other reality or consciousness than your own. You are totally unable to relate as to how a rock might experience reality, because you are a human who thinks that human experience is the best kind.

Actually, I think everything that's alive experiences consciousness to some degree, beginning at the cellular level, otherwise we couldn't even extend our awareness down to our little toe.

Why stop there. Why not rocks? Why not air? Is it DNA that gives something consciousness? Can you even define what you mean by "consciousness"? How can begin to describe the metaphysical properties of something you can't even define in the physical world?

I hate to tell you this, but unless you "know" that you're here, you are aware of nothing, including reality.

I can well understand why you would hate to tell me that, because it means nothing, and you hate being so shallow.

Do you mean to tell me "you" don't know that you exist?

I mean to tell you I can tell you what I mean by "exist" and I can tell you what I mean by "consciousness". By my definitions, I do exist and I have consciousness. You don't seem to be able to get a handle on either of these terms. That is why I am trying to help you clear up the clutter in your own mind.

If you say "consciousness survives death", then you must know what it is that survives death. Is it the ability to think? That would be a pretty neat trick, since there are no thinking entities yet discovered which have no brain. Is it the ability to perceive? That would be equally neat, since there are no things yet discovered that can perceive without the use of sensory apparatus. You sound like you are proposing something that goes against everything we have yet discovered, and you do this utterly without any evidence, other than your own feeling that "it must be so." Pardon me if I am less trusting of your intuition than you are.

Do radio waves exist outside of a radio?

Yes, and it can be shown that they do. It is rather easy to prove. Does souls exist outside of the body? You say so, but you cannot show that they do. You offer no proof. I would not expect you to believe that radio waves existed unless I could show you the evidence for them. Yet you expect us to simply take your word for it.

But what are morals, and where do they come from?

What a guileless dodge. It doesn't matter where morals come from. Use your own morals. I assume you have some. Would you like it if I rephrased the question? Let's try.

"Based on your own moral code, which is more moral: Doing good for the joy of doing good or doing good in the expectation of reward."

Now can you give me a straight answer?

Yes, this is one of those questions we need to ask ourselves if we're to transcend the whole affair.

I have often asked myself (and others) that question before, and I have come to an answer that I find satisfactory, although subject to modification. I'm guessing you consider the question rhetorical. Let's not try to use this diversion as an excuse to sidestep my question, shall we? If you have any morals, then you should easily be able to answer my question.

 

[Iacchus]

I definately would have to say I feel that way about you sometimes. So closed minded to even asking the question about natural probability.

Yes, you have natural probability on the one hand (the mechanics) and that which is transcendant on the other (full functionality). So why the incessant need to speak about everything but that which is functional?

 

[Iacchus]

I'm saying nothing of the sort. It is you that is making that contention. You are saying that after death, your consciousness somehow appreciates what you have done in life, or else, what would be the point of it? I am merely pointing out the selfishness of such a position. You want your deeds to be appreciated after you are gone. Can't you be satisfied that they are rembembered by those who are left alive? Why must you invoke a spiritual something to indulge your own ego?

I'm saying after death we reap the rewards of this life, good or bad. And that my friend is called Karma.

What else could you call it? You say that consciousness is the only thing that allows us to experience reality, but you are asserting this never having experienced any other reality or consciousness than your own. You are totally unable to relate as to how a rock might experience reality, because you are a human who thinks that human experience is the best kind.

Yes, and where have I been all my life, if not conscious?

Why stop there. Why not rocks? Why not air? Is it DNA that gives something consciousness? Can you even define what you mean by "consciousness"? How can begin to describe the metaphysical properties of something you can't even define in the physical world?

Why should I even conjecture about the "fact" -- hmm, or perhaps not? -- that I exist?

I can well understand why you would hate to tell me that, because it means nothing, and you hate being so shallow.

What do you need somebody else to verify it for you?

I mean to tell you I can tell you what I mean by "exist" and I can tell you what I mean by "consciousness". By my definitions, I do exist and I have consciousness. You don't seem to be able to get a handle on either of these terms. That is why I am trying to help you clear up the clutter in your own mind.

Please don't refer to an "I" if you can't ascertain what that "I" is.

If you say "consciousness survives death", then you must know what it is that survives death. Is it the ability to think? That would be a pretty neat trick, since there are no thinking entities yet discovered which have no brain. Is it the ability to perceive? That would be equally neat, since there are no things yet discovered that can perceive without the use of sensory apparatus. You sound like you are proposing something that goes against everything we have yet discovered, and you do this utterly without any evidence, other than your own feeling that "it must be so." Pardon me if I am less trusting of your intuition than you are.

Yes, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Realize it or not this is what you're asking me. And like I said, can radio waves exist without a radio?

Yes, and it can be shown that they do. It is rather easy to prove. Does souls exist outside of the body? You say so, but you cannot show that they do. You offer no proof. I would not expect you to believe that radio waves existed unless I could show you the evidence for them. Yet you expect us to simply take your word for it.

Yes, but "you" are the freakin' radio! ... So why don't "you" learn how to "tune in?"

What a guileless dodge. It doesn't matter where morals come from. Use your own morals. I assume you have some. Would you like it if I rephrased the question? Let's try.

Based on your own moral code, which is more moral: Doing good for the joy of doing good or doing good in the expectation of reward

Now can you give me a straight answer?."

As I have stated above, and elsewhere, I believe in Karma and, that everybody receives their just reward, including those who feign to do good for the wrong reasons.

I have often asked myself (and others) that question before, and I have come to an answer that I find satisfactory, although subject to modification. I'm guessing you consider the question rhetorical. Let's not try to use this diversion as an excuse to sidestep my question, shall we? If you have any morals, then you should easily be able to answer my question.

I don't know about you, but I do things because I enjoy doing them.

 

[El Greco]

And so, after about 1000 posts Iacchus is exactly where he was when he came here. Do you see any change, any indication of a slight variation, any signs that he is not talking to a tree or a wall ? I don't.

 

[Iacchus]

And so, after about 1000 posts Iacchus is exactly where he was when he came here. Do you see any change, any indication of a slight variation, any signs that he is not talking to a tree or a wall ? I don't.

Consciousness exists expressly for perceiving, and hence defining reality. Without it, there would be no reality for us.

So when the body dies, and our consciousness departs, where do "we" go?

 

[CWL]

Why do you people insist on being so dense!

Why do you insist on ignoring direct quetions put to you?

The main question of this thread has been brought to your attention many times now (by myself, exarch, Tricky et al.) only to be blatantly ignored by you.

I'll give it one more go:

As described by you, "God" is an evil and indiscriminating tyrant. Why is such a concept, in your reasonable opinion, worthy of worship?

Please make a serious attempt at replying.

 

[exarch]

Originally posted by Iacchus
Yes, but where does Iacchus' consciousness go? This is the question everybody wants to know.

I doubt it, but how about it doesn't go anywhere? It just ceases to exist when the brain ceases to operate.

If Iacchus is not conscious, then what difference will it make, unless of course Iacchus is conscious in another realm?

But you are conscious in this realm, unless when you are knocked out, in which case you are unconscious in this realm.
And perhaps you think you are conscious in a different, dream realm when sleeping. That is just your brain moving into another state of consciousness and making you think that.

Oh, and by the way, did you know that the only thing that allows us to experience reality is consciousness? Indeed, how would we even know we were here? Of course we wouldn't. Thus it would seem consciousness goes hand in hand with experiencing reality, Right? ... almost as if the two were synonymous?

I disagree. Consciousness alows us to experience the concept "self". Experiencing reality does not require consciousness.

So when the body dies, and consciousness passes on, is it possible that it goes on to experience reality in a different state? Hey, now wouldn't that be something!

What makes you think consciousness "moves on" after death at all? What possible reason do you have to think that consciousness, and indeed perception of reality, don't simply end when the body and brain stop functioning. Do you think a computer still processes information after you pull out the plug? Why do you think your brain is any different?

Why would you think you remain conscious after dying when there is no possible reason to believe such an absurd notion?
It's most likely everything just goes dark and that's the end. Brain stops, they dump you in a hole in the ground and you become worm-food. It ain't pretty, but that's the great cycle of life

 

[Tricky]

I'm saying after death we reap the rewards of this life, good or bad. And that my friend is called Karma.

Not according to Pahansiri, who knows a great deal more about it than you or I. (See his earlier post on the subject). According to him, karma affects you in this life as well. Also, others who discuss karma say nothing about "rewards". They merely refer to it as a continuation of your "soul's" learning process.

So you see, even those who believe in karma have no consensus as to what it is. That is because there is no evidence for it existing. But it sounds to me like you are expecting a post-life payoff for being good. Even if this were true, you would be accepting bribes for your good behavior. And that, my friend, is hardly admirable.

Yes, and where have I been all my life, if not conscious?

Not in logic class, that's for sure. But as I say, you are using your own definition of consciousness. Suppose that to a plant, consciousness means photosynthisizing. To them, you have been unconscious all your life.

By no, you have not been conscious all your life. Were you conscious when you were a zygote? Has your consciousness increased since you first came to exist? Has that increase in consciousness paralleled the development of your brain? That should give you an idea of where consciousness (by human definition) comes from.

Why should I even conjecture about the "fact" -- hmm, or perhaps not? -- that I exist?

I'm not asking you to conjecture on it. I'm asking you to define it. Once you have done that, it will be obvious as to whether or not you meet the criteria. I know you refuse to do this because you don't want to be pinned down and forced to acknowledge your own lack of logic, but we're not going to let you wriggle away so easily.

What do you need somebody else to verify it for you?

Verify gobbeldygook? How would one do that? With more gobbeldygook?

Please don't refer to an "I" if you can't ascertain what that "I" is.

LOL. This to a person who insists on "souls" when you can't even ascertain what a soul is. But your misdirection is noted.

Yes, which came first, the chicken or the egg? Realize it or not this is what you're asking me. And like I said, can radio waves exist without a radio?

And like I said, yes radio waves can exist without a radio, and I can prove it. And no, I am not asking you about chicken-and-egg. I am asking you how this consciousness-after-death works. It is your suggestion that it exists, so it is up to you to give evidence. But don't feel bad about your inability to do so. No one ever has. Reasonable people would take this as evidence that it doesn't exist.

And by the way, if you wonder which came first, radio or radio waves, I assure you it was the waves. We have giant radio telescopes picking up waves that were emitted from stars many millions of years before life on earth (and certainly before radios) came to exist.

Yes, but "you" are the freakin' radio! ... So why don't "you" learn how to "tune in?"

Yes, this "radio" analagy has been made and demolished many times. Radios and radio waves are physical things. They can be measured, created, analyzed etc. In this, the soul bears absolutely no relationship to radio waves. We can transmit radio waves and every one with a radio will hear the same thing. This is not true of souls. It is a bad analogy. Like mentally unbalanced people, you are hearing voices in your head. So why don't "you" learn how to tune them out before you go crazy?

As I have stated above, and elsewhere, I believe in Karma and, that everybody receives their just reward, including those who feign to do good for the wrong reasons.

And I see you have chosen once again to evade the question. Is this because you know that to answer it would put you in an untenable position? Instead you reply with a restating of your little fantasy.

Let's see if I can make it a yes or no question to help you even more.

Are people who "feign" to do good for the purpose of obtaining karmic rewards less admirable than those who do good only for the joy of doing good?"

A simple yes or no will suffice. Are you capable of that?

I don't know about you, but I do things because I enjoy doing them.

As do I. But I don't expect some undefined reward for my undefined soul in some undefined afterlife. The simple enjoyment is enough for me. Why not for you?

 

[Pahansiri]

Why do you people insist on being so dense!

Translation:

" stop asking me to explain what i say, I can't so I will attack you for asking and not just following me as your savior" [Iacchus ]

 

[Pahansiri]

Yes, but where does Iacchus' consciousness go? This is the question everybody wants to know. If Iacchus is not conscious, then what difference will it make, unless of course Iacchus is conscious in another realm?

Oh, and by the way, did you know that the only thing that allows us to experience reality is consciousness? Indeed, how would we even know we were here? Of course we wouldn't. Thus it would seem consciousness goes hand in hand with experiencing reality, Right? ... almost as if the two were synonymous?

So when the body dies, and consciousness passes on, is it possible that it goes on to experience reality in a different state? Hey, now wouldn't that be something!

Greetings .

Again you manage to say something that has nothing to do with what you said

Originally posted by Iacchus
Hey, did you know that cause and effect won't work after death, unless of course there is an afterlife?

And what I responded

Originally posted by Pahansiri

Not true at all.

Upon your death when Iacchus is dead cause and effect will go on "working" in fact with "your" very body it will go on as the elements of "your" body will again Appear in other forms.


But you do open with

Yes, but

So at least you do recognize your statement was wrong and admit it and that is a great step forward.

Yes, but where does Iacchus' consciousness go?

What is consciousness? Show it to me when you show me self or soul ( not soul as in being able to sing and dance) which you have yet to attempt.

Here is a good short site about Buddhism view on this topic http://www.buddhanet.net/nutshell09.htm

By the way you still have not Answered ( along with a host of other things) does your God only value free will of people with evil intent/will?

 

[exarch]

Well, being the only one who hasn't commented on this yet:

Originally posted by Iacchus
Why do you people insist on being so dense!

From Merriam-Webster Online:

2 a : marked by a stupid imperviousness to ideas or impressions : THICKHEADED b : EXTREME [dense ignorance]

So who has been displaying dense ignorance here? Who is just swallowing all the gobbledegook about the unfounded assumptions of souls and presumed supernatural states of consciousness? who is ignoring the lack of evidence and insists in believing weird, fantastic claims, trying to make up excuses why they aren't fantastic claims? Who is believing in a supreme being because someone he respected once told him he should?

It's not Tricky, CWL, Pahansiri or me

Think man, think!!

I guess he isn't thinking with his brain, he's thinking with his consciousness, and that's why it all goes wrong

 

[Graham]

Yes, this "radio" analagy has been made and demolished many times. Radios and radio waves are physical things. They can be measured, created, analyzed etc. In this, the soul bears absolutely no relationship to radio waves. We can transmit radio waves and every one with a radio will hear the same thing. This is not true of souls. It is a bad analogy. Like mentally unbalanced people, you are hearing voices in your head. So why don't "you" learn how to tune them out before you go crazy?

We cannot, however, transmit radio waves without a medium in which to do it - a fact which, I think, offers a much better refutation of a poor banalogy.

Do radio waves exist in a vacuum, Iacchus?

The answer is no.

Now ask yourself why and then apply that thinking to brain patterns / consciousness.

Graham

 

[exarch]

Originally posted by Graham
We cannot, however, transmit radio waves without a medium in which to do it - a fact which, I think, offers a much better refutation of a poor banalogy.

Do radio waves exist in a vacuum, Iacchus?

The answer is no.

Now ask yourself why and then apply that thinking to brain patterns / consciousness.

Check your sig, then check your post, then slap your forehead as you remember stars emitting radio waves, old TV and radio broadcasts from 50 years ago currently moving out into space, ...

The answer is yes.

It's still a bad analogy though, since radio waves are like light, they don't stick around. One moment you see them, the next second they're 300'000 km away. If souls would do that it would be really bad

 

[Tricky]

lacchus, I have made the question so simple that even you can answer it. All it takes is a yes or no. Instead, I see you have run away to make other vacuous statements on other threads. After all, I am only asking your opinion, not a statement of fact. Are you fearful of stating your own opinion in a straightforward fashion? If not, then answer the question.

Are people who "feign" to do good for the purpose of obtaining karmic rewards less admirable than those who do good only for the joy of doing good?"

Yet, I predict you will not answer it, at least not in a straightforward fashion. If you have the courage to reply at all, I suspect you will waffle and make more vacuous statements. And I think I know why.

It is because you are afraid. You are terrified of death, so much so that you invent the most elaborate fantasies to pretend that you won't "really" die. That somehow, somewhere you will continue to exist. Because you fear the darkness. You fear the loss of your mind. You fear the end.

Come, young one. Be brave. Know that when you die others will follow. Do the best you can to make their way easier, and then let go. Don't cling pitiously to some ever more flimsy thread of hope that somehow that magnificent mind of yours will continue to exist. Quit crying for your God to save you. Save yourself by making the only life you can be sure of count for something important. You still have plenty of time to do so. Stop wasting it.

 

[Graham]

Check your sig, then check your post, then slap your forehead as you remember stars emitting radio waves, old TV and radio broadcasts from 50 years ago currently moving out into space, ...

The answer is yes.

It's still a bad analogy though, since radio waves are like light, they don't stick around. One moment you see them, the next second they're 300'000 km away. If souls would do that it would be really bad

I knew there was reason I had that in my sig.

 

[CWL]

Why do you insist on ignoring direct quetions put to you?

The main question of this thread has been brought to your attention many times now (by myself, exarch, Tricky et al.) only to be blatantly ignored by you.

I'll give it one more go:

As described by you, "God" is an evil and indiscriminating tyrant. Why is such a concept, in your reasonable opinion, worthy of worship?

Please make a serious attempt at replying.

Brave Sir Iacchus ran away...

I'll try Tricky's method (although it hasn't produced any results either) with simple yes or no answers.

Let's start real simple.

Iacchus, is in your opinion the "God" you talk about responsible for HIV and earthquakes? "Yes" or "No"?