A thread in response to the UN Rape allegations thread

[crimresearch]

What he said.

 

[Meadmaker]

As you deny israel has a right to exist as a jewish state, you are an antisemite.

But wait a minute. I, personally, don't believe that any nation has the right to exist as a (fill in the blank)ish state.

I don't believe that there is a right to have a "Jewish state" or a "Palestinian state" or a "Christian nation" or an "Islamic Republic".

So I'm an anti-semite?

Please don't tell the rabbi. We're planning on celebrating shabbat with him again soon.

(For those who don't know, I'm a goy who married a Jew. My wife and son are Jewish. I'm not.)

As I have made friends within the Orthodox community, I have realized that some of those people would indeed call me an anti-semite if they understood my views. To them, Jewish identity and the state of Israel are so intertwined that they are inseparable. To say that an Muslim living in Israel ought to have exactly the same rights as a Jew living in Israel is, to them, an attack on Israel, and, to them, is by definition anti-semitic.

I believe that the nation of Israel has a right to exist. Furthermore, I don't believe that there has to be an absolute separation of church and state in order for there to be complete freedom for everyone inside a state, regardless of religion.

But currently, in the state of Israel, there are certain privileges enjoyed by Jewish citizens that are not enjoyed by Arab citizens. I don't think any state anywhere has the right to treat its citizens differently based on religion or ethnicity. Israel unquestionably does that today. I don't think any nation has a "right" to do that.

If by, "Jewish state", you mean a state where Jews are free to practice their religion and where the government recognizes a special relationship with the people and culture of the Jews, then I think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state. If, by "Jewish state", you mean a nation where Jews are in power and Jews receive different treatment under the law from non-Jews, then I don't think Israel has a right to exist as a Jewish state.

So am I an anti-semite? I have realized, in discussing religion and culture with members of the Jewish community, that some would say I am, and they would be right in one sense. In their view, part of being Jewish is to support the state of Israel as a special place for the practice of the Jewish religion. In their view, that is part of Judaism, and anyone who disagrees with that view is therefore opposed to Judaism, and therefore anti-semitic. Of course, in my view, anyone who says that "all true Jews believe X" is guilty of applying a negative stereotype. And anyone who applies negative stereotypes to Jews is being anti-semitic.

They think I'm anti-semitic. I think they're anti-semitic. And, by our own definitions, we are each correct.

So, AUP, I will hereby accuse you of anti-semitism. Join the club.

Oh, but there is one problem. I have this idealist view of the world, in which someday, the people who live in that part of the world long ago known as Canaan could all live together in peace and harmony, worshipping or not worshipping in whatever way they choose. That's an unrealistic dream for the moment, though. There is nothing Israel could do to make it happen, even if they wanted to. Many Arabs, and especially many Palestinians, really do hate Israel and its Jewish citizens. Given that fact, which no reasonable person could deny, Israel can't just pretend that there are no problems, and stop treating the Arabs as a threat.

 

[TragicMonkey]

It's news to me that "right" or "wrong" are even issues when talking about the existence of nations, outside of war propaganda. Various states exist. Others preceded them, others will follow them. They each have supporters and detractors, and they will all have fancy arguments (or not so fancy ones) designed to make you either love or hate the state in question.

Which is irrelevant, anyway.

Israel exists, whether anyone likes it or not. Arguments over "rights" in this context are really nothing more than attempts to persuade someone, by rational argument, to like or dislike it.

Since states are rather irrational things anyway, why this line of argument would sway anyone is beyond me.

Let's just unify the whole damn planet, so we can make all the squabbling internal. Civil wars are far more interesting than international ones, and we'd probably save a lot of money on postage, export duties, and I'd be able to get those good Greek olives for cheaper. I mean, seven bucks for a medium sized jar? And all that salt in them will probably kill me eventually, but they're just so good. I strongly recommend them to be eaten with little squares of pepperjack cheese. Try it at your next party...where was I? Oh yes, lecturing on irrationality.

Crap, these wine coolers taste like fruit juice but have rather more alcohol than one would expect.

 

[Mycroft]

Originally posted by a_unique_person
He is also quite happy to label anyone who is a critic of Israel, as is also their right, an anti-semite.

I really can’t add much to Skeptic’s rebuttal, but I did want to stress this one point.

I call one critic of Israel an anti-Semite and suddenly I see it written time and time again that I call any critic of Israel an anti-Semite.

That’s a nice smear, it really is.

It’s got just enough truth in it that it might be accepted at first glance.

The thing is, it’s not true.

There is only one person I’m calling an anti-Semite, and that’s AUP.

Just one person.

 

[Cleopatra]

He is exremely irrational, his support for LGF is a clear example of it. He is also extremely uncivil, I have quoted the example where he says I should be 'proud' for being such a subtle and sneaky anti-semite. It's not just uncivil, it is libelous.

Pixy Misa has defended LGF to if I recall correctly. How come he is not an irrational fanatic? The reason why I am not a great fan of them is not because they are irrational liars but because I believe that the policy they advocate leads to a dead end.This is where I disagree with Skeptic too BTW. How does this make me more rational? Afterall, my poltical stance has been proven wrong by the events. For example I was a fierce opponent of the security fence but statistics have proven me wrong, the fence works and lives of innocent civilians have been saved.

As for your being an antisemite, I have told you before what I think of you. I don't thnk that you are very fond of jewish people. The tone in your posts show that deep in your heart you believe that things have been easy for the Jews and life is magnanimus to jewish people. Also you seem to be persuaded by the myth of the Holocaust Industry and let me explain that. There is no doubt that some people might have attempted to profit from the Holocaust but you believe that Jews have turned the Holocaust into an industry on a long scale. The term Industry has not been chosen by chance. Although Finkelstein and you deny the unique nature of the Holocaust( industrialized genocide) but you believe in the industrialized expoitation of a tragic event.

This is not criticism Unique, this is antisemitism= prejudice agaist the jews that is based on fictional events.

BUT I happen to come from a social environment that antisemitism has been present for centuries and that people have learned to live with their prejudices and detache them from the people they hate for no reason. That's why my dear Unique I have no problem to interact with some people that do not like jewish people. I can tell the difference between a prejudiced person and a dangerous hatemonger.

Most of what you believe about Israelis is wrong unique, I am not talking about political views but I talking about this sentiment of contempt that is present in your posts.

Try this trick. When you are talking with contempt about IDF think that you are talking about a group of people that are like you . IDF soldiers are people with a life, professionals, married and fathers of three children. IDF is a unique kind of Army that has nothing to do with what most of you know as Army. It's a real army of real,everyday people like you and me, that's why our enemies wish to label IDF as a monstrous group of killers.

He is not just an apologist for Israel, which is his right, and every cause will have it's apologists, if you use the word in it's technical sense.

Skeptic replied to that with the best possible way.

What is irrational about Mycroft is his inability to see anything wrong with the way it acts, but no end of ability to see what is wrong with Arabs and Palestinians.

Really? Let us read below....

Now that the peace initiatives are under way again, the new mantra is being preached to us already, there can be no peace, because the Palestinians will never stop till Israel is destroyed. This is all the evidence needed to show that exremists such as himself are not really interested in peace

I am surprized to read that. You have to know that in politics what is announced has nothing to do with what is going on.

I don't recall seeing a reply from him.

He is not obliged to address everything I post.

Given that they don't believe that there will ever be peace, that it is not possible with the Palestinians, then the peace talks should be cancelled right now and stop wasting everyones time. The question is, if the extremists such as Skeptic know that the Palestinians will never stop till they destroy israel, then what is the logical response of Israel to this threat. You won't get an answer on that question either.

The truth is Unique that the Palestinians wouldn't mind if Israel disappeared and it will take them decades in order to surpass their bitterness that's why I said that they have to forgive us first. Peace talks cannot be cancelled right now because human bombs have started exploding in USA ground too. BTW How come Al Qaeda hasn't hit again in USA, huh? have some dirty thoughts about that....

Debateable, and you are willing to debate this, as are others. The Palestinians certainly haven't been too smart in their response, nor was Arafat, in my opinion, a good leader. Oslo failed for several reasons, and one of them was the failure of the Palestinians to capitalise on the opportunity, but Israel was also to blame.

Ah here we come. So according to you during a 50 years conflict is debatable whether Palestinians have screwed up things for them. Why you accuse Mycroft of being unable to admit that Israels make mistakes too when you do exactly the same when it comes to Palestinians. " Not too smart"? Right! Can you see what you are saying now. " By using the word " smart" you insignuate that there is a disability from their part, it's not that they don't wish to do the right thing is because that they can't because they are not smart.

Do you call this favoritism per chance?

I think that I have indicated many times that there are Isaelis who think the occupation is a mistake, and want it ended. I have shown many times Israelis protesting at what their country is doing.

And guess what, those Israelis are not assassinated in tortures just because of their different political views.

Find something that Mycroft or ZN or Skeptic ever had to say that was an attempt ot provide a balanced assesment of the Palestinian viewpoint. Good luck.

Unlike you I don't shape my opinons based on what Skeptic, Mycroft, Z-N, you , CD or God himself thinks.

I think that this sums up your problem. You don't post your opinions, you react to the opinions of Skeptic and Mycroft.

That's a big leap in logic, blaming Sharon to burning down synagogues. I would hazard a guess that those European burning down synagogues wouldn't really know much about the middle east at all, but would do it middle east or not. Their hatred, as you point out, is based on something that goes back longer in history.

But those Europeans that as you pointed out have no idea about ME are citizens and they vote for governments who can affect this issue.

The first step in that path is to give them their country. Not negotiate over interminable years and conferences, give it to them tomorrow, with no conditions. Justice delayed, as the saying goes, is justice denied.

You must be joking. You really must be joking. They took a country without no conditions the same day Israelis got a country but they denied it exactly because the world didn't wish to compromise by THEIR rules. Greece was established with its territories half of its present size and Arafat wanted Jerusalem first in order to negotiate!!Jerusalem!!! I have asked you before, which city is more sacred for the Arabs, Jerusalem or Mecca?

You are discussing with me now Unique, take off your Robert Fisk hat.

Once again, I can't see someone saying "I should be proud" that I am such a clever anti-semite is anything other than contemptible.

You are a stubborn donkey. This is what you are. I call you a donkey others call you an antisemite and in all honesty I cannot blame them anymore.

 

[Matabiri]

Originally posted by Lucky
I agree with you. Several people jumped in and defended a_u_p (and attacked z-n, in some cases quite nastily), instead of pointing out, in a friendly manner, that a_u_p was out of line and should retreat. They are:

Ian Osborne
Megalodon
Matabiri
The Fool
(Hutch - arguable)
richardm
demon
(Kevin_Lowe – arguable)

Hmm... I remember picking up on an ambiguous bit of z-n's grammar (in what I thought was an obvious joke), defending the idea of a parody to demonstrate unconscious prejudice, and laughing at Skeptic's description of Mark Steyn as "not a hack"; I certainly don't remember "attacking" z-n.

Originally posted by Lucky
Having said that, of course it is true that z-n was being attacked for being a Jew and a supporter of Israel. It happens to me, occasionally on this board (which is not much to me) and in my life (which I can’t ignore). I think we don’t lie down and die, and we don’t go in with all guns blazing. (Perhaps we can discuss this elsewhere.)

I can't speak for others, but my initial -shrug- response was due to the over-the-top reaction by z-n, and nothing to do with his race, politics or religion, about which I neither know nor care. To claim otherwise is to reinforce the persecution complex he seems to be demonstrating. Yes, the OP was tasteless and heavy handed, but I think it was immediately obvious, from the similarity between the title and the other thread, and the opening sentence, that it was intended as parody. A better response would be to post, "I think this is in extremely poor taste," and then to ignore it. To call for censorship is completely disproportionate to the "crime".

 

[a_unique_person]

Pixy Misa has defended LGF to if I recall correctly. How come he is not an irrational fanatic? The reason why I am not a great fan of them is not because they are irrational liars but because I believe that the policy they advocate leads to a dead end.This is where I disagree with Skeptic too BTW. How does this make me more rational? Afterall, my poltical stance has been proven wrong by the events. For example I was a fierce opponent of the security fence but statistics have proven me wrong, the fence works and lives of innocent civilians have been saved.

The fence was always going to 'work'. That was not the point. What does 'work' mean?

As for your being an antisemite, I have told you before what I think of you. I don't thnk that you are very fond of jewish people.

I have made it very clear who I don't like, the 'gang of four', two of whom aren't Jewish. So in that sense, I am pretty even handed.

And this is because they are accusing me, repeatedly, of being what they know I 'really' think, and am. An anti-semite of the David Irving league.

Now, I want you to consider what this means.

It means that I teach my children anti-semitism. I don't do this. I teach my children to not be racist, including anti-semitic. One of my children has a friend who is Jewish. Now, before you say this is a typical 'some of my best friends are Jewish' platitude, remember, I am being accused of David Irving class anti-semitism. He would not tolerate any Jewish friends, he is an Aryan, he teaches his daughter how proud she should be she is an Aryan.

He is a holocaust denier. I am not. I deliberately kept out of the 'how many jews really died..' thread. There was no doubt that any claims would be well and truly dealt with by our resident experts. If the claim is that six million died, I'll buy it. That is what the experts say. The impetus for it was an historical anti-semitism, that was leapt on by Hitler in a moment of madness, and turned into a, well, a holocaust, turning germany and half of Europe into a smoking ruin along the way.

He wears his anti-semitism with pride. I dislike being accused of being an anti semite, and I object most strenuously when the claim is made that not only am I an anti-semite, but an anti-semite like David Irving. Every time that claim has been made, I have been grossly offended, and made it well known I was offended.

David Irving preaches extremist anti-semitism. His web site will lead you to any number of sites to enchant those who want reasons to hate Jews. I have quoted mainly mainstream press, including Haaretz.

They accuse me of being an anti-semite of David Irving class because they know what I really think. Psychic powers are not evidence. If they want, take up the Million dollar challenge. Let them make specific claims for my anti-semitism, based on their unique insight into what I 'really' am.

The tone in your posts show that deep in your heart you believe that things have been easy for the Jews and life is magnanimus to jewish people.

Absolutely untrue. I have never made that claim, nor do I think it, nor do I say it. Your psychic powers are not that good. If you tried that trick in court, you would be laughed out in a second.

I have said that there are Jewish interests influencing American politics. The Jewish lobby is hardly a secret. Neither is the sugar lobby, the arms lobby or the civil rights lobby. That is not a Jewish elite running America, that is another lobby group getting what it can. I believe that a part of the reason the war goes on is because arms are so readily available. One of the move that was taken to control the war in the Yugoslav civil war was to reduce the arms to all parties.

Also you seem to be persuaded by the myth of the Holocaust Industry and let me explain that. There is no doubt that some people might have attempted to profit from the Holocaust but you believe that Jews have turned the Holocaust into an industry on a long scale. The term Industry has not been chosen by chance. Although Finkelstein and you deny the unique nature of the Holocaust( industrialized genocide) but you believe in the industrialized expoitation of a tragic event.

You may have seen that thead on the attempt to get reparations to holocaust victims actually paid to them. That was an issue taken up in the Knesset, by Israelis, on behalf of holcaust victimes, and denied them by Sharon and Co.

I have never denied the unique nature of the holocaust. All the mass murders have their unique features, that is a simple matter of fact. The massacre in Rwanda was the first massacre, that I have heard of, where you all just picked up a machete and hacked up your neighbour at once.

The holocaust was industrialised, of course, that was how six million died in such a short time. I had only recently realised that the majority of the killing seems to have happened towards the end of the war, when it was clear to many nazis they were going to lose. They had to hurry up with the killing before time ran out. Crazy stuff.

This is not criticism Unique, this is antisemitism= prejudice agaist the jews that is based on fictional events.

First of all, find out how fictional your accusations are.

BUT I happen to come from a social environment that antisemitism has been present for centuries and that people have learned to live with their prejudices and detache them from the people they hate for no reason. That's why my dear Unique I have no problem to interact with some people that do not like jewish people. I can tell the difference between a prejudiced person and a dangerous hatemonger.

I grew up in Australia, not Europe. I am mostly white, with only a trace of Jewish blood from a great, great uncle who though it would be a good idea to leave Germany before 1900 because even then he thought the anti-semitism was getting too strident.

Australia was a great place for whites, for we had the wonderful white Australia policy, and it was a very racist country for most of it's existence. But our racism was targetted at Asians. When Greeks and Italians emigrated here, many of them found out what it was like on the receiving end.

Most of what you believe about Israelis is wrong unique, I am not talking about political views but I talking about this sentiment of contempt that is present in your posts.

My contempt is not so much what they are, but what they claim they are when they are not. Armies are there to fight and kill, a necessary evil. The IDF has been maintaining a military occupation for 30 years. Read Robert Manne, the nightmare of occupation.

Try this trick. When you are talking with contempt about IDF think that you are talking about a group of people that are like you . IDF soldiers are people with a life, professionals, married and fathers of three children. IDF is a unique kind of Army that has nothing to do with what most of you know as Army. It's a real army of real,everyday people like you and me, that's why our enemies wish to label IDF as a monstrous group of killers.
Skeptic replied to that with the best possible way.

Really? Let us read below....

I am surprized to read that. You have to know that in politics what is announced has nothing to do with what is going on. He is not obliged to address everything I post. The truth is Unique that the Palestinians wouldn't mind if Israel disappeared and it will take them decades in order to surpass their bitterness that's why I said that they have to forgive us first. Peace talks cannot be cancelled right now because human bombs have started exploding in USA ground too. BTW How come Al Qaeda hasn't hit again in USA, huh? have some dirty thoughts about that....


Ah here we come. So according to you during a 50 years conflict is debatable whether Palestinians have screwed up things for them. Why you accuse Mycroft of being unable to admit that Israels make mistakes too when you do exactly the same when it comes to Palestinians. " Not too smart"? Right! Can you see what you are saying now. " By using the word " smart" you insignuate that there is a disability from their part, it's not that they don't wish to do the right thing is because that they can't because they are not smart.

Do you call this favoritism per chance?

And guess what, those Israelis are not assassinated in tortures just because of their different political views.
Unlike you I don't shape my opinons based on what Skeptic, Mycroft, Z-N, you , CD or God himself thinks.

I think that this sums up your problem. You don't post your opinions, you react to the opinions of Skeptic and Mycroft.

But those Europeans that as you pointed out have no idea about ME are citizens and they vote for governments who can affect this issue.


You must be joking. You really must be joking. They took a country without no conditions the same day Israelis got a country but they denied it exactly because the world didn't wish to compromise by THEIR rules. Greece was established with its territories half of its present size and Arafat wanted Jerusalem first in order to negotiate!!Jerusalem!!! I have asked you before, which city is more sacred for the Arabs, Jerusalem or Mecca?

There is no way of measuring sacredness, I'm afraid. That question cannot be answered.

You are discussing with me now Unique, take off your Robert Fisk hat.



You are a stubborn donkey. This is what you are. I call you a donkey others call you an antisemite and in all honesty I cannot blame them anymore.

 

[Scoff]

Hysteria

I have been a silent observer in some of the forums for a long time now...at least a year, probably closer to 2. I find this thread interesting. Certainly not in the sense that I feel inclined to carefully read the opinions of the paranoid fanatics....more in what it has shown about people.

There are a couple of really nasty people here and what is scary is what seems to be at the core of their nasty personalities....a desire to persecute. That would be ZN and Rikzilla to say the least. This is a nastiness quite aside from their general stupidity...I fail to understand why reasonable people try to communicate with them. They are not here for the communication, knowledge etc etc, only for the fun of causing pain through unfounded insults, backstabbing and bullying.

it's obvious to me that the fundamental characteristics of facists is the whipping up of a frenzy of fear. This fear sucks people in - with little regard to reason, knowledge, fact etc. Certain people here are scarily like that - the two afore mentioned and their mob - yes, MOB. The mob members are unable to stand alone and think for themselves for fear of offending their "allies". I can't think why, they seem so incredibly boring and horrid. (that's probably how it grew in the suburbs in Europe....neighbours politely tolerating anti-semitism so they wouldn't offend their "friends" over the dinner table. Then it got out of hand and next thing they knew they were turning a blind eye to persecution and genocide)

Salem....Witch hunts....McCarthyism....Have a read of The Crucible" and please stop acting like hysterical village girls and boys.

Really, anyone who thinks they are up for a debate with David Irving should think again...I don't think most of you could hack it and will do nothing more that make the guy stronger and more credible with your lack of skill in rational debate. He'd probably come out looking good.

On a positive note, how great it is to see some of the compassionate humanists come out....

...but mostly I can't work out if ZN etc are scary or absurd or even just plain mad or bad

I note a real difference between the die hard debaters such as AUP, Fool and other's whose names I can't remember, and the nasty trouble makers (ZN, Rikzilla) and their hysterical followers... the good guys are noble whilst the others seem to be generally intolerant and lacking compassion and insight on a range of social issues.

 

[Cleopatra]

No I am not leaving the bone from my mouth this time.

Accusing you of being a holocaust denier of David Irving's kind was a mistake and it saddens me to see that you have to get into details in order to defend yourself but the atmosphere in this forum is so poisonous that I am thinking of starting a thread and ask the administration to consider to close it down for a while as the administration of" Infidels" did last year.

The fence was always going to 'work'. That was not the point. What does 'work' mean?

What sort of response to my original comment is that? You pretend that you didn't take my point so I have to repeat it.

You claimed that Skeptic and Mycroft are stuck to their ideas irrationally. I pointed out to you that you might think so because you just don't like their ideas. _I_ for example stick to ideas that they have been proven wrong. For example, I have claimed that the security fence wouldn't work and it wouldn't provide any security. I was mistaken but I stick on my opinion based on my principles. Why don't you find my ideas irrational? Maybe because you agree with me.

Absolutely untrue. I have never made that claim, nor do I think it, nor do I say it. Your psychic powers are not that good. If you tried that trick in court, you would be laughed out in a second.

Ok I made a mistake then BUT I point out to you something that I have pointed out repeatedly in the Paranormal forum. When you paint a portrait to look like Satan and you name it Virgin Mary, you cannot complain when people see it and call it " The Satan". This is what you do unique and trust me there are cases in court that you might ask the jury to see what the portrait depicts and not how is named by the artist and this is exactly the essence of Justice.

I have never denied the unique nature of the holocaust. All the mass murders have their unique features, that is a simple matter of fact.

This is what I am talking about. This is an ancient rhetoric trick but it doesn't sell here, not to me at least. Read the paragraph above. Yourefuse to aknowledge Holocaust as a unique genocide and it's not because you deny it but because you use this "argument" to stress your point; that there is a "Holocaist Industry".

What puts Norman Finkelstein to the margin of any serious scientific historical research is exactly this mistake; he uses an irrelevant base to built his argumentation. You are doing the same mistake just because you are persuaded by Finkelstein. And while you are unable to prove the existence of a holocaust industry in the same time you drag a whole series of false conclusions.

The holocaust was industrialised, of course, that was how six million died in such a short time.

No he number of the victims doesn't prove that the genocide was industrialized, the nature of the genocide is proved by what we have found in the camps and by the testimonies of the victims.

My contempt is not so much what they are, but what they claim they are when they are not.

Have you ever read that IDF is an Army of freedom fighters or a liberating army? NO IDF claims to be exactly what it is " Israeli Defence Force and its populated by common people like you that's why you will never read reports about tortures of prisoners and emetic stuff like that.

Armies are there to fight and kill, a necessary evil. The IDF has been maintaining a military occupation for 30 years. Read Robert Manne, the nightmare of occupation.

No I don't need to read Robert Maine to know what this occupation has cost to both parties. Trying to intimidate Israel with a Holocaust within its very boarders didn't turn out to be a very good idea for the Arab world. Also, keep in mind that they live like animals mostly because their leader didn't let them leave the refugee camps.

There is no way of measuring sacredness, I'm afraid. That question cannot be answered.

Oh please. You are talking to me now. I happen to know whether sacredness can me measured or not but this is not what I asked you to do. I asked to tell me if you know which is the most sacred city for the muslims according to their tradition: Mecca or Jerusalem?

 

[Cleon]

This is what I am talking about. This is an ancient rhetoric trick but it doesn't sell here, not to me at least. Read the paragraph above. Yourefuse to aknowledge Holocaust as a unique genocide and it's not because you deny it but because you use this "argument" to stress your point; that there is a "Holocaist Industry".

Hrm. Interesting. I don't think the two are contradictory; I think the Holocaust was unique, for reasons too numerous to go into in this thread. That said, I think there is also a "Holocaust Industry." It's not so much based on money as it is on politics, though. I haven't read Finkelsteins' book (yet), so I can't really comment on his arguments.

Have you ever read that IDF is an Army of freedom fighters or a liberating army? NO IDF claims to be exactly what it is " Israeli Defence Force

Odd how a "defence" force is so often deployed in occupied territory.

and its populated by common people like you that's why you will never read reports about tortures of prisoners and emetic stuff like that.

Erm, Cleo, have you told these folks about that? Torture by the IDF has been fairly common, and acknowledged by the Israeli government.

From the site:

Until the High Court of Justice ruling of September 1999, Israel's security forces annually tortured hundreds of Palestinian detainees. According to official data the security forces interrogated approximately 23,000 Palestinians during the Intifada (1987-1993). The Public Committee Against Torture in Israel estimates that almost all the above detainees suffered from some form of torture during their interrogation.

I would say you never read about this sort of thing because the moment any media source says anything remotely critical of the IDF or Israeli policy, politicians and pro-Israel organizations jump down their throats.

Oh please. You are talking to me now. I happen to know whether sacredness can me measured or not but this is not what I asked you to do. I asked to tell me if you know which is the most sacred city for the muslims according to their tradition: Mecca or Jerusalem?

Mecca, of course, being the site of the hajj. But what difference does it make? Denying Jerusalem's importance to Islam--or to Judaism or Christianity--is inane.

 

[Lucky]

Megalodon, Matabiri, Fool and others on my list:

My point was that, rather than just explaining to z-n that the post was a parody (and, in some cases, saying how stupid he was not to 'get' it), you should have paused to ask yourselves whether the parody was justifiable, or would cause unacceptable offence.

I felt physically ill, as well as completely shocked and bewildered, when I first saw the thread, and it seems that Cleopatra had a similar reaction. It took me several minutes to work out what was going on, and that was after several of your posts explaining the reference. I am far from stupid (and I certainly didn’t expect a_u_p to say that kind of thing for real) but, as I say, I was very shocked. Even after ‘getting’ the parody I didn’t feel much better.

Surely it should have been obvious that others besides z-n would be upset (as a_u_p has now accepted).

 

[Cleon]

Megalodon, Matabiri, Fool and others on my list:

My point was that, rather than just explaining to z-n that the post was a parody (and, in some cases, saying how stupid he was not to 'get' it), you should have paused to ask yourselves whether the parody was justifiable, or would cause unacceptable offence.

I felt physically ill, as well as completely shocked and bewildered, when I first saw the thread, and it seems that Cleopatra had a similar reaction. It took me several minutes to work out what was going on, and that was after several of your posts explaining the reference. I am far from stupid (and I certainly didn’t expect a_u_p to say that kind of thing for real) but, as I say, I was very shocked. Even after ‘getting’ the parody I didn’t feel much better.

Surely it should have been obvious that others besides z-n would be upset (as a_u_p has now accepted).

Well, I told AUP privately that I had happened to read the parody immediately after I saw the original, so I got it, but I can see how someone wouldn't. As I said, I think he went a bit too far, he's acknowledged that and apologized for it, let's move on.

As far as ZN goes...Well, I can see you being upset, and if I were AUP I would regret that. Ditto for Cleo. However, in ZN's case, I honestly and sincerely doubt he was really that upset, and I frankly think he simply saw it as an ideal opportunity to try and get AUP kicked off the board. If you disagree, I'm sorry, but I stand by my opinion on the matter.

 

[Mycroft]

Well, I told AUP privately that I had happened to read the parody immediately after I saw the original, so I got it, but I can see how someone wouldn't.

I got it too. Instantly. I had read Skpetic's thread, and the paralels in the title and the OP were obvious.

It was still offensive.

Cleon, I understand you are less sensitive to slurs against Jews than you are to other peoples, but surely even you can see it makes no sense to "parody" a criticism of an organization (the UN) with an attack against a people. You just don’t do that, it’s not appropriate.

And his excuse after that? He was upset at being called an anti-Semite so he decided to start a thread "jokingly" bashing Jews? How can anyone take that seriously?

 

[Matabiri]

My point was that, rather than just explaining to z-n that the post was a parody (and, in some cases, saying how stupid he was not to 'get' it), you should have paused to ask yourselves whether the parody was justifiable, or would cause unacceptable offence.

Was a parody justifiable? Yes, I certainly think so. Anything can be parodied.

Was a parody in these terms justifiable? Maybe not. I've already said I thought it was pretty tasteless.

But we're on an internet message board; even a message board as generally couth and interesting as this one occasionally hits a low. It's the nature of the beast. And given this, I find calls for censorship and claims of feeling "physically sick" ludicrously over the top, particularly in light of the apparent history between everyone involved. Turn off the computer, go outside, and take a few deep breaths before responding if you're that upset. Some people online may have offensive attitudes; taking actual serious offence from them is, to my mind, a little foolish. If what's been said is as idiotic as claimed, this will be obvious to everyone reading it, and doesn't need a dozen people shrilling their outrage and keeping it in the headlines to point this out. As I mentioned earlier, all it takes is a post saying you're offended, and then let it die. The best way do deal with irritating opinions is to ignore them.

I refuse to take offence at anything posted on-line, because after all, anyone can have an opinion. If I disagree that strongly, I just tell myself that the originator is clearly an idiot and forget about it.

 

[Cleopatra]

[
I felt physically ill, as well as completely shocked and bewildered, when I first saw the thread, and it seems that Cleopatra had a similar reaction. It took me several minutes to work out what was going on, and that was after several of your posts explaining the reference. I am far from stupid (and I certainly didn’t expect a_u_p to say that kind of thing for real) but, as I say, I was very shocked. Even after ‘getting’ the parody I didn’t feel much better

I wasn't shocked, for I moment I got scared that something really nasty happened in the O.T. something I haven't heard of and some religious lunatics in Israel justified it. You see, I haven't read Skeptic's original thread, somebody sent me a PM to check this thread since I was busy lately and I wasn't reading much.

After I realized what was going on I was saddened because of the total lack of control. I consider myself quite a passionate person in my private life but I happen to hate the loss of control when it comes to emotions that spring from political ideas.

It's silly to suggest that this post was a parody. It was an unfortunate post. Nothing more, nothing less and BTW where is Z-N? Has he said that he will leave the forum? Nobody is in the position to know what Z-N hides in his heart and if he was really offended or not since we don't know anything about him and his personal history. How can you be so sure Cleon that he didn't get genuinely upset by the post. It's AUP of all people here that keeps telling to others that they must be careful when they post because we don't know who is reading what and in which emotional state he is when he reads the forum.

 

[Lucky]

From Cleopatra:
Some people of israeli/jewish/whatever origin enjoy some respect in discussions about Middle East exactly because they criticize Israel and this is what hurts me most.

people like you when you start spitting on your people. You cannot post any moderate comment because " the enemies" who in reality don't give a dime-- jump on you to adopt you.

Personally, I want to have the right to post my opinion and I don't want to be adopted by any anti-Israeli.

So to make things clear. If there are people who respect my views just because I criticize Israel some times then they have to reconsider their view

I like Unique or Capel Dodger for reasons that haven't anything to do with the topic we keep discussing although they make me furious all the time.. I like demon because he knows who Swinburne is and he knows about Art and I happen to like Mycroft a lot because he is a very smart and polite man although I disagree quite often with his views

I know how you feel. It’s a problem. First, I think we have to criticise Israeli policies (I don’t mean just on this board), because it would be dishonest not to and because it may do some good. But we have to be very careful to do it constructively and not in such a way as to encourage Israel’s enemies (this may not always be possible).

About our behaviour towards people we feel are anti-Israel, and perhaps anti-semitic to some degree. It does no good at all to react with anger and abuse, as is only too clear from this forum. I feel that, if we treat people that we think might be prejudiced against us with politeness, and do our best to answer their statements reasonably, then we are helping them to be better informed and are perhaps also helping to break down prejudices.

On the other hand it’s no good being a wimp, and in any case there are limits to anyone’s tolerance. I doubt I can argue with someone who openly finds me and my race physically disgusting, for instance, or believes the blood libel.

If we are discussing some topic other than Israel/Palestine then probably the best guide is to behave as we feel (consistent with both good manners and self-respect). I like having a laugh with CapelDodger, and a good discussion with a_u_p, and was pleased and amused when demon displayed an unexpected sense of humour. It seems silly to pretend a coldness that I don’t feel, but ….. I’ll always be on my guard.

I share your appreciation for Mycroft, and I respect z-n and Skeptic for their knowledge and commitment. I also value the fact that they have always treated me with politeness even though they must sometimes find my views quite disagreeable (especially Skeptic).

I respect Cleon for maintaining an unpopular position that he sincerely believes in without becoming overly confrontational when challenged, and for his ability to see the other person’s point of view.

I wish that Skeptic did not make (what I interpret as) prejudiced anti-Palestinian statements, just as I wish demon did not make (what I interpret as) prejudiced anti-Israel statements. I wish that everyone I’ve mentioned would be considerably less aggressive.

You and I have a problem: we don’t hate anyone. We’re freaks.

 

[DanishDynamite]

You have history against you. I wish you didn't but you do have History against you. Jewish people have been prosecuted in societies for thousands of years and they have suffered the most humiliating form of genocide. Don't say that other people have suffered as well. First we are not talking about other people now but about jewish people and second no, nobody has ever suffered for such a prolonged period of time and nobody has ever being extinct in an industrialized genocide. Fact. Period.

Whether or not this is true it is completely without relevance (especially to the Palestinian-Israeli conflict).

So, in our days many antisemites are hiding behind the conflict in order to demonstrate their hatred and hypocriticaly they blame it on Israel, in Europe those" Israel critics" that claim that it's Sharon their real problem, go and burn down synagogues and vandalize cemetaries,that means that they continue the long antisemitic tradition.

Cry me a river.

Idiots who burn down synagogues and vandalize cemeteries are likewise irrlevant.

If you have felt the contempt for being a jewish even once you can sense it from miles away and to return to my initial point people like you when you start spitting on your people. You cannot post any moderate comment because " the enemies" who in reality don't give a dime-- jump on you to adopt you.

Your personal persecution-complex is likewise irrelevant.

Personally, I want to have the right to post my opinion and I don't want to be adopted by any anti-Israeli. I love my country, I am proud of my country, I am trying hard to debunk the tons of lies that circulate about my country without losing my hope that things will be better for us and for them but I hope that nobody here is fooled. All I care about is Israel , I hope that the Palestinians find their way but it's their duty to do so not ours.

Completely understandable. Even commendable.

So to make things clear. If there are people who respect my views just because I criticize Israel some times then they have to reconsider their view or better they have to start wondering about their stance and their passion about an issue that doesn't affect their real lives.

I agree to the first part. In regard to the second, the Palestinian-Israeli conflict unfortunately affects everyone's lives.

Why is that difficult for the rest of you to separate the person from his views?

We're human?

 

[Meadmaker]

It's news to me that "right" or "wrong" are even issues when talking about the existence of nations, outside of war propaganda.

I agree. However, when I was at a sabbath dinner with an orthodox rabbi a few weeks ago, this topic turned up. According to the rabbi, Jewish teaching was different from this. There are righteous nations, and unrighteous nations. Collective guilt is very much a part of this form of Jewish teaching. God ordered the destruction of seven nations in the Torah because the nations themselves were unrighteous, not because the individuals who lived in them were guilty of any special sin.

Just as there is not one single "Christian religion", there is not one form of "Jewish religion." I am sure not all Jews agree with that. My wife certainly doesn't. However, many Jews do indeed believe this. I know very little about Islam, but I believe it teaches something similar. Although I know Islam teaches, much like Christianity, that individuals will be saved or damned according to their own righteousness or lack thereof, I have read some stuff about righteous nations as opposed to non-righteous ones. I believe that it is the duty of a Muslim to make their nation into a "righteous" i.e. Islamic, state, and to punish non-righteous nations. I don't know if that's right, since my sole knowledge was something I read on an Islamic web site once, but I have read it.

 

[TeaBag420]

At a guess, I'd say it was because the people who are most vociferous in their attacks on the UN happen to be people who are most vociferous in their defence of Israel. .....

Ah, a generalisation. The counterexample of course would be Pat Buchanan.

I myself hate juice. I hate pineapple juice, orange juice, apple juice...oh, you were talking about Jews. Nevermind.

 

[Cleopatra]

Some say the world will end in fire,
Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire,
I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice,
I think I know enough of hate
To know that for destruction ice
Is also great
And would suffice.

Robert Frost (1920)

Such hatred in such a skeptical forum.