Merged A Thread for AlexPontik to Explain his Ideas

theprestige said:
It occurs to me that I can imagine a teenager, looking at a world where all the good stuff costs money. I can imagine a teenager looking at that world and thinking, "it would be so much less effort, without money. I wouldn't have to get a job and work hard and earn money buy what I want. I could just... get it."
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I can't say I think it would be less effort without money...if that was the case...I assume humans before me and you would have noticed that...
"Hey the coins and the paper we are using are making society worse, let's get rid of them" <--however this doesn't seem to happen, when there is some form of a scalable economy.

You need money to trade with stranger, you don't need money to trade with friends, if they are your friends, and you need to remember that either way...

...you don't want to spend more time and effort than what you have to.

...and the latter in your daily life comes up as a question similar to the one below:
"Do I REALLY have to do that?"

when you REALLY have to, you do it, and spend the time and effort required.
when you don't, well it's up to you, but you decided that you don't REALLY have to do it.
And when you have decided that, only you know that in the end, or else you are wasting your time and effort by listening to other, if they are not trying to make any sense.
 
AlexPontik said:
you are not trading in the example that you are thinking with without money, as the other person is not trading with you.
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That's the point. Money is a universal trade adaptor. Without money, it's a lot more effort just finding someone to make a profitable trade with.

AlexPontik said:
What is valuable to humans, is for them to have a good time without spending too much time and effort explaining stuff.
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Money does that, really well.

AlexPontik said:
I can't say I think it would be less effort without money...if that was the case...I assume humans before me and you would have noticed that...
"Hey the coins and the paper we are using are making society worse, let's get rid of them" <--however this doesn't seem to happen, when there is some form of a scalable economy.
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Exactly. Money makes human society better. It makes it easier and more productive. That's why we invented it. That's why we keep it around. Why are you arguing that it makes things more difficult?

You need money to trade with stranger, you don't need money to trade with friends, if they are your friends, and you need to remember that either way...
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Hopefully you show your friends the respect your friendship deserves, by offering them fair financial compensation when appropriate. I hope this isn't a complaint about your friends not giving you stuff for free, but expecting you to make things even in the trade.

...you don't want to spend more time and effort than what you have to.
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Which is why I use money for pretty much all my trades.

...and the latter in your daily life comes up as a question similar to the one below:
"Do I REALLY have to do that?"

when you REALLY have to, you do it, and spend the time and effort required.
when you don't, well it's up to you, but you decided that you don't REALLY have to do it.
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I don't understand what you're trying to say here. If my friend asks for help affording car repairs, I don't put in the time and effort required to learn how to repair their car. I just give them some money for repairs.

And when you have decided that, only you know that in the end, or else you are wasting your time and effort by listening to other, if they are not trying to make any sense.
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I am trying to make as much sense as I possibly can. I assume you're doing the same. But you don't make any sense at all to me. Is there any other way you can phrase your ideas?
 
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AlexPontik said:
money on its own doesn't have value.
If you give money to a cat, your money is useless to your cat.
If you give money to your girl, after sex, you made a mistake...

What is valuable to humans, is for them to have a good time without spending too much time and effort explaining stuff.

Why?
Because if something is valuable to one, it is valuable for one to experience it...if it is not valuable for one to experience something, hardly one can find value in that something after some time.

And money themselves don't represent value, they represent information that one who has money probably does something right and this is why it is right for that one to have money.

Fair enough I say to that, but if one cannot make money again and again, because of some skill one has, but simply because of some position one holds, then the position is valuable to the rest and not the skills one has.

Do you need examples for the above?
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These anti-money posts are always focused on vague philosophy.

But lets make it real again.
Like I mentioned. I am a teacher.
What I really valued (among many other things) this saturday was a set of 12 toilet rolls.

Explain how, without a medium of trade, I'd get that given that none of my students work in the TP making industry.
 
AlexPontik said:
...for the rest of you who are getting angry…
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Who's getting angry?

I specifically addressed what seems to be one of your points. You seem to think that you are addressing someone who thinks that they can predict the outcomes of coin tosses, and asking them why they can't predict your questions. But nobody has claimed that.

If that's not what you meant, then try to explain it without cramming as many extraneous words into each sentence as you can.
 
AlexPontik said:
you need to be more specific in what it is that you don't understand,
you are replying that you you don't understand, and that your answer do make sense...
if your answers do make so much sense you guys, why don't you start your on thread, where people can hear your views...

anyone who has something of use to say here?

for the rest of you who are getting angry, just in case this time you read

After one gets angry, some time has to pass for that one to relax, because if you REALLY think otherwise…

After one gets angry, some time doesn’t have to pass for that one to relax, but if you think this is REALLY ok for you…

If in the end, after one gets angry, some time doesn’t have to pass for that one to relax, it doesn’t seem to me that one isn’t constantly angry…does it seem to you…
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Alex – people here are not getting angry. They are interested in some of the things that you wrote in your very first post at the top of this thread, such as where you said this -

AlexPontik said:
• Something else than what humans can imagine has been happening around humans up to now since the beginning of humans, regardless the fact that most humans don’t get that.
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People would like to discuss what you said there (in that quote above which is from your post) … But they do not really know what you are saying, because the way you have written it is very unclear.

Have a look at my previous reply to you where I asked you to tell us more clearly what you mean.
 
IanS said:
Alex – people here are not getting angry. They are interested in some of the things that you wrote in your very first post at the top of this thread, such as where you said this -




People would like to discuss what you said there (in that quote above which is from your post) … But they do not really know what you are saying, because the way you have written it is very unclear.

Have a look at my previous reply to you where I asked you to tell us more clearly what you mean.
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Well there you go getting all angry again. AlexPontik doesn’t respond well to that, you know.
 
Susheel said:
Will we also be dicksing potatos this time? Can we please? It's been so long since we did it.
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Dicksing is freely available, anytime, at your own discretion.
Obviously, I don't have your level of self control.


Mmmm... potatos. [emoji3]
 
Susheel said:
Will we also be dicksing potatos this time? Can we please? It's been so long since we did it.
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I'd say that was also philosophy but so many people on this board unironically worship that trolling stupidity as some form of high concept performance art I'm afraid the insult would be lost.
 
AlexPontik said:
you are not trading in the example that you are thinking with without money, as the other person is not trading with you.

one case you are trading with money

on the other case you are not trading, as the other part will not accept anything but money.


Fair enough, but these are not two cases for both of which you are trading with someone.
e.g.
Inside a company there is trouble among teams, and a project is behind schedule.
Trading option one with money: using money hire extra hands to help bring the project back to track
Trading option two without money: without using money, teams start getting their stuff together and communicate, to help bring the project back to track.

If option one takes less time and effort, it is the preferable choice, if it doesn't it is not, however this needs to be weighted per case to decide.
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Your argument already has a flaw that you made yourself without following your own "rules".

You already have people working for a company for money.

Edit: Your company has people working for it. The company pays its employees money. It has a problem. It assigns employees it pays a task. The task/project falls behind. Either more money is spent to hire people, or the people, who already get paid, get their stuff together. Your two options that you presented require money.

Lets change your example. There is a company that has a problem. Please show how this problem will be solved with money and how this problem will be solved without money.
 
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IanS said:
Alex – people here are not getting angry. They are interested in some of the things that you wrote in your very first post at the top of this thread, such as where you said this -




People would like to discuss what you said there (in that quote above which is from your post) … But they do not really know what you are saying, because the way you have written it is very unclear.

Have a look at my previous reply to you where I asked you to tell us more clearly what you mean.
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While all that is true, you probably also realize that this has been Alex's modus operandi for quite some time. It's not the first time he retreated into the fantasy that if anyone disagrees it's just because they're "angry". (Evidence: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13213538&postcount=123 )

It's also not the first time he obsesses over some unspecified people thinking they can predict the toss of a coin, but doesn't explain where he's going with it. I would guess he's trying to do some kind of "Secret Socrates" spiel, in which he just gets you to realize that OMG everything you thought you knew was wrong because you can't predict the outcome of a coin toss.
 
Unrelated, now that I look through his older posts, I'm starting to get worried for Alex. It seems like it's not just a problem of Google translate. He starts a lot more coherent (well, relatively speaking) and it seems to quickly go downhill over the course of just about one year. It's not perfect English or anything, but you can understand what he's trying to say in his first threads, and see some logic being applied in his objections. Then over the course of a year we get to this thread or the completely unintelligible God REALLY didn't forget something to do, if God REALLY did everything thread.

Now I'm not a neurologist, but this kind of rapid descent into aphasia is making me think of a brain tumor or neurodegenerative disease or such. Just about anything else doesn't fit. A stroke would be much more abrupt of a change, while simple schizophrenia doesn't evolve nearly this fast.

But again, I'm not a neurologist so one should ask a real doctor.

Anyway, now I'm worried. Alex, seriously, see a doctor. I'm not angry, I'm just worried.
 
HansMustermann said:
While all that is true, you probably also realize that this has been Alex's modus operandi for quite some time. It's not the first time he retreated into the fantasy that if anyone disagrees it's just because they're "angry". (Evidence: http://www.internationalskeptics.com/forums/showpost.php?p=13213538&postcount=123 )

It's also not the first time he obsesses over some unspecified people thinking they can predict the toss of a coin, but doesn't explain where he's going with it. I would guess he's trying to do some kind of "Secret Socrates" spiel, in which he just gets you to realize that OMG everything you thought you knew was wrong because you can't predict the outcome of a coin toss.
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Ahh, OK ... no I had not previously noticed what Alex had posted in other threads.

I don't know if English is not his first language? Or if if he has a problem expressing himself clearly??

It sounded to me as if his opening post was trying to say that before human people existed on the Earth, the world was completely different to the way we now think it was at that earlier time (eg anything from about 100,000 years ago) ... as if he believes that the picture we have from modern science is completely wrong ...?? … that would sound like another version of the recent threads we've had from Larry and others who have tried to argue that because everything that humans do is always filtered through our sensory system and the brain, that means it's all been corrupted or all a false illusion or something.
 
I can think of several different things that he could be going for, but unless he clarifies it, it's hard to tell. I'd rather wait for him to explain than chase a wild guess of mine that may well turn out to be a strawman.

As for language, as I was saying, I was also considering that maybe it's just a bad case of Google translate, but then I looked through his old messages and... it's weird. It starts intelligible enough (even if it's obviously not his first language) and turns unintelligible over the course of the last year. I don't see how someone's mastery of a foreign language can actually turn worse the more one uses it, and Google translate didn't take a massive turn for the worse either.

I might get moderated for what I said in message #41, but it's not a personal attack, I'm genuinely worried. I have a grandma who died of brain cancer, so, you know, I'd rather get moderated if there's any chance of saving someone from that kind of thing. That's just the kind of ass hole I am, I guess.
 
IanS said:
Ahh, OK ... no I had not previously noticed what Alex had posted in other threads.

I don't know if English is not his first language? Or if if he has a problem expressing himself clearly??
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Google the username. Enjoy that kettle of crazy. It isn't this thread, or any other thread. It is the whole damn internet.
 
HansMustermann said:
I can think of several different things that he could be going for, but unless he clarifies it, it's hard to tell. I'd rather wait for him to explain than chase a wild guess of mine that may well turn out to be a strawman.

As for language, as I was saying, I was also considering that maybe it's just a bad case of Google translate, but then I looked through his old messages and... it's weird. It starts intelligible enough (even if it's obviously not his first language) and turns unintelligible over the course of the last year. I don't see how someone's mastery of a foreign language can actually turn worse the more one uses it, and Google translate didn't take a massive turn for the worse either.

I might get moderated for what I said in message #41, but it's not a personal attack, I'm genuinely worried. I have a grandma who died of brain cancer, so, you know, I'd rather get moderated if there's any chance of saving someone from that kind of thing. That's just the kind of ass hole I am, I guess.
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Maybe he broke up with his English-speaking SO? Or maybe he just got lazy and started using Google translate instead of trying to remember the English.
 
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