A supernatural hand mark?

[Robin]

As others have said I don't think it really matters how they were faked. You have to admit that they look fake, they don't even look like a clever fake.

For example he might have a paper template which he straps around his arm and then exposes it to the sun for a long time, or a tanning machine.

It may be that he paints on something that leaves a rash. Perhaps he has exposed it to some mild radioactive substance.

I expect there are many ways to do something like that.

 

[Bikewer]

By definition, a “third degree burn” is deep into the underlying tissues, not a red or pinkish mark on the epidermis. That would be a “first degree” burn.

3rd degree burns don’t vanish in 5 days.

 

[Carrot Flower King]

Did this even happen?

Folk claim a lot of things happened which did not.

So far this is just a claim, so no need to go any further.

 

[Leftus]

Strange flames of fire? Clearly the work of Lucifer.

 

[Norman Alexander]

An most obvious explanation is he drew the marks on himself in ink, to gain notoriety.

Next silly question?

 

[wasapi]

Having sun spots on my hands, I just noticed one of the dark spots looks just like a heart. Obviously, I was tattooed overnight by Cupid!!! I must be really special!

 

[theprestige]

In the sense that a huge amount of miracles are attributed to him. His miracles outnumber most other saints. He is probably the most famous "miracle worker" in Lebanon. You can search a lot of miracle stories attributed to him. One of the most famous miracles was curing a woman with hemiplegia in her dream and according to the story she woke up with surgical scars on her neck. She claims that the saint (long ago a dead person) performed the surgery.

Okay. So he's basically a folk hero to Lebanese Christians. Why do you think this merits inquiry?

Do you think there might actually be some miracles going on?

 

[suren]

Okay. So he's basically a folk hero to Lebanese Christians. Why do you think this merits inquiry?

Do you think there might actually be some miracles going on?

Well, I'm skeptical, but as I wrote I was having a debate with a Christian about God existence, religion, theism, deism, pantheism. He is arguing that Christianity is the religion that is closest to the truth and has the best answers to four necessary questions: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. And he told me about some of this saint's miracles, including this hand print mark. He says that "even the most skeptical people become speechless and are unable to debunk them" or something like that. He is not a Lebanese Christian, he is an Oriental Orthodox Christian. He is not like those evangelical nuts or religious fanatics. He considers himself open minded and will change his mind if someone provides a good explanation. But he doesn't like when skeptics speculate too much, he thinks that it's a sign that they don't want to believe but have no good explanations.

I just wanted to know plausible explanations. My knowledge is limited there.

 

[rjh01]

I have an explanation of why this happened. Lebanon has gone through a civil war lasting from 1975 to 1990 and resulting in an estimated 120,000 fatalities. This would leave many people highly stressed (PTSD anyone?). This results in people wanting miracles. Raymond Nader gave them one in 1994.

 

[suren]

I have an explanation of why this happened. Lebanon has gone through a civil war lasting from 1975 to 1990 and resulting in an estimated 120,000 fatalities. This would leave many people highly stressed (PTSD anyone?). This results in people wanting miracles. Raymond Nader gave them one in 1994.

Interesting point, thanks, also looks like the country is very religious, a mix of Muslims and Christians. Probably religion plays a significant role in politics of this country.

 

[Sideroxylon]

Having sun spots on my hands, I just noticed one of the dark spots looks just like a heart. Obviously, I was tattooed overnight by Cupid!!! I must be really special!

 

[theprestige]

And he told me about some of this saint's miracles, including this hand print mark.

Tell him he's begging the question.

He says that "even the most skeptical people become speechless and are unable to debunk them" or something like that.

Like I pointed out earlier, that's not how debunking happens. Vague claims lacking in evidentiary detail aren't supposed to be debunked. They're supposed to be laughed at and dismissed for being vague and lacking in evidentiary detail.

What he describes as "even the most skeptical people become speechless and are unable to debunk them" is more likely just regular people who don't realize that they don't have to debunk claims like these.

Actually, it's more likely that he's just parroting a claim he got from somewhere else without evidence.

He is not like those evangelical nuts or religious fanatics.

He sure sounds like one.

He considers himself open minded and will change his mind if someone provides a good explanation.

He's reversing the burden of proof. It's on him to explain why this is a miracle, not on anyone else to explain why it isn't.

I just wanted to know plausible explanations. My knowledge is limited there.

Well, you've been given several now.

But really, you shouldn't be here asking us for explanations. You should be up in his face asking him for evidence. And laughing him out of the room if he doesn't produce any.

 

[EHocking]

Disproportionate how?

>0

 

[Robin]

Well, I'm skeptical, but as I wrote I was having a debate with a Christian about God existence, religion, theism, deism, pantheism. He is arguing that Christianity is the religion that is closest to the truth and has the best answers to four necessary questions: origin, meaning, morality, and destiny. And he told me about some of this saint's miracles, including this hand print mark. He says that "even the most skeptical people become speechless and are unable to debunk them" or something like that. He is not a Lebanese Christian, he is an Oriental Orthodox Christian. He is not like those evangelical nuts or religious fanatics. He considers himself open minded and will change his mind if someone provides a good explanation. But he doesn't like when skeptics speculate too much, he thinks that it's a sign that they don't want to believe but have no good explanations.

I just wanted to know plausible explanations. My knowledge is limited there.

So you want a plausible explanation of a claim about something alleged to have happened a while ago based on a few unconvincing photos and videos but you don't want us to speculate?

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Many (most?) (all?) religions have their miracles with just as good evidence as Christianity. Part of my evolution to atheism was the realization that believers in non-Christian religions were just as sincere in their beliefs as Christians are.

 

[Gord_in_Toronto]

Many (most?) (all?) religions have their miracles with just as good evidence as Christianity. Part of my evolution to atheism was the realization that all believers in non-Christian religions are just as sincere in their beliefs as Christians are.

 

[abaddon]

Well, I'm skeptical, but as I wrote I was having a debate with a Christian about God existence, religion, theism, deism, pantheism.

Demonstrate any god exists

He is arguing that Christianity is the religion that is closest to the truth

Unevidenced claim for an unevidenced "truth"

and has the best answers to four necessary questions: origin,

Nope. The "goddidit" claim explains nothing

meaning,

No god is needed for meaning.

morality,

Is slavery moral? Because god says it is in the holey babble.

and destiny.

No such thing.

And he told me about some of this saint's miracles, including this hand print mark. He says that "even the most skeptical people become speechless and are unable to debunk them" or something like that. He is not a Lebanese Christian, he is an Oriental Orthodox Christian. He is not like those evangelical nuts or religious fanatics. He considers himself open minded and will change his mind if someone provides a good explanation. But he doesn't like when skeptics speculate too much, he thinks that it's a sign that they don't want to believe but have no good explanations.

I just wanted to know plausible explanations. My knowledge is limited there.

And this is just a load.

 

[Robin]

I just thought of a plausible explanation.

Maybe some long dead religious guy came briefly back to life in order to burn the image of a bizarrely shaped hand onto someone's arm using some sort of flamey spirity stuff, for some reason.

 

[suren]

So you want a plausible explanation of a claim about something alleged to have happened a while ago based on a few unconvincing photos and videos but you don't want us to speculate?

Well, his argument is that Nader's life changed completely, he thinks that a fake is a very unlikely explanation. He thinks that even if a nonbeliever sees a miracle himself or hears testimonies of many eyewitnesses he'll still dismiss it by inventing "ridiculously unlikely" explanations such as lies, brain disorders, or mass hallucinations. He claims that although science is a powerful tool to observe the reality, it's insufficient, since there is also the supernatural and atheists are close minded and they fanatically believe only in science without being open to other possibilities.

I just don't know how to respond to this, these are somewhat emotional arguments, but even I sometimes have such thoughts.

PS: This guy is educated (computer science) and is not like most religious people. He doesn't deny evolution theory, big bang, etc. Once he said that for him Christianity is not a blind belief but a "rational conclusion".

 

[abaddon]

There is nothing rational about it.