A Solution in Search of a Problem.

The "fraud" explains how it works. Clever.

He says he's a big supporter of science and technology. But since he's trying to make money off it, I doubt it. :rolleyes:
 
The "fraud" explains how it works. Clever.

He says he's a big supporter of science and technology. But since he's trying to make money off it, I doubt it. :rolleyes:


Isn't it just despicable the way some people will prostitute pure science for tawdry profit? Even worse, using confusing and underhanded marketing techniques to sell their brand.

It's a good thing Edison didn't do that.

Oh ... wait.

(Why am I thinking of dead elephants?)
 
TurbochargerWPWhat you have in a turbocharger is a lot of energy used to compress air.

What you have with a Dyson fan (maybe) is a tad of air compression in that the FAN in the base sucks in air through a bigger inlet than the ring outlet. It's a unique fan for the appearance of it. It's not an "air multiplier". "Gruntmaster 6,000" comes to mind. :D
i know how a turbo works, and these fans do get quite a bit of compression, which i why i say it cant just be a simple fan in the base, but a turbine similar to the one in a turbocharger (or, you know, a vacuum cleaner)

and i think the "multiplier" claim is because as the air is forced out of the ring it starts to pull ambient air along with it, effectively moving more air than was sucked through the base


so why compare it to a turbocharger and a jet engine in your marketing rather than a vacuum cleaner? the answer should be obvious
 
Snide is easy. We've got a whole forum of people right here who do it without any effort at all. Fun, and often meaningless.
Oh, but these were clever snides. ;)


Show me where Dyson personally claims it is "some new kind of physics discovery."
This might be a semantics argument but I was referring to just using the fake name "air multiplier" and the claim 300+ engineers worked on the design. That was in one of the links I posted, I'll find the exact quote.


Playing nitpick games with semantics. There has been no effort to pretend that the base contains no fan. It's quite obvious to anyone who isn't looking to pick a fight (or perhaps brain-dead) which fan blades are being referred to. If you personally are unsure of the difference try sticking a cat's tail through the delivery system of a conventional fan.
Don't confuse my long time disgust toward Dyson's marketing scams with some irrelevant "looking for a fight". This guy's been on my skeptics' pet peeve list for years.

There is a fan in the base. It is not a bladeless fan. I've never said the design wasn't original.


They did, but it isn't clear why, except for effect. The "Ionic Breeze" clearly did not do what it claimed to do. By comparison this gizmo claims to move air without large fan blades buffeting that air to push it at you. It does that.
It does not 'amplify the air'. It does not do what it claims.


Funny about that. It was the "bagless" feature which made his vacuum cleaner one of the most popular in the UK.

Do you remember when vacuum cleaner bags weren't disposable. I do. They were no fun to empty, either. Less, if truth be told.
I've seen cloth bags, but never used them. If that's what Dyson was replacing he overlooked the disposable bag era.

The Ionic Breezes were sold by the thousands. If Dyson's vacuum was popular in the UK, it goes to show what an excellent marketer Dyson is, (not disputed), not what a great vacuum he developed. Consumer Reports rates the vacuum as equal to cheaper standard models. Personally, I think dumping a container of very fine dust requires I go outside and hold my breath while emptying it. I do that with my shop vac that I wish had a bag. This is not an advantage unless you can't afford bags.


Too bad Hoover didn't have the benefit of your engineering and marketing wisdom. They wouldn't have had to lose that $5 million in court for stealing his design.
Again you are talking patents and market share, not evidence of a better mousetrap.


You've been sucked in by (or are sucking in) something if you think I have made him out to be "any kind of genius inventor". All I did was question your apparently unsupported description of him as a "fraud".
Does the fan amplify air? Does the vacuum cleaner really work better? (Not according to Consumer Reports)

He's had some good 'out of the box' ideas. He has employed basic science in innovative ways. Without resorting to the sort of petty semantic literalism that you have used concerning "fan blades" I think you will find it difficult to demonstrate that his products do not perform fundamentally as he claims they do.
The vacuums and fan are not superior in the way Dyson advertises. I have no opinion of his inventions I haven't seen advertised.

Comparing him to Ron Popeil is a bit of a cheap shot . Popeil got an Ig Noble Prize (which isn't even all that ignoble). Dyson got elected to the Royal Academy of Engineers.
It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it. I said I didn't deny he had engineering credentials.

And knighted.
Not sure what that is evidence of. ;)

The fan is a neat idea. It's cute, and there seems to have been a decision made to offer it in a certain market. Initially. As is usually the case with these sorts of products I expect it will gradually (soon?) find its way into less pricey niches.
My argument is with the fake claim, it amplifies the air. That terminology is specifically intended to deceive the consumer. If he marketed it as a cool new design that was safe around babies, easy to dust and a conversation piece, I would have no objections.

Ho hum.

There's been as much "spin" expended in trying to find ways to denigrate this toy as there has been to sell it. Maybe more.

I suspect that they are profoundly grateful for all of the assistance with their publicity campaign.
Don't take it too personally. Like I said, I have a serious skeptical pet peeve with marketing gimmicks and this guy presents a classic example. It wouldn't surprise me if Dyson wasn't behind a number of Google hits that profess the wonder of his product. The guy definitely knows how to market.

This site is his own and it solicits or fakes grassroots reviews. There are other sites with one or two glowing reviews that are classic for marketing one's own product with manufactured reviews. Amazon.com reviews, OTOH, are more numerous and more mixed. 2/3s of the reviewers like the vacuum and 1/3 are not so favorable. This is what you would expect from a product that was maybe as good as, but not necessarily better than other vacuums.
 
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i know how a turbo works, and these fans do get quite a bit of compression, which i why i say it cant just be a simple fan in the base, but a turbine similar to the one in a turbocharger (or, you know, a vacuum cleaner)

and i think the "multiplier" claim is because as the air is forced out of the ring it starts to pull ambient air along with it, effectively moving more air than was sucked through the base


so why compare it to a turbocharger and a jet engine in your marketing rather than a vacuum cleaner? the answer should be obvious
If you have any evidence of this design, you could post it. The Consumer Reports reviewers did not think it worked better than a comparable fan. My brother thinks his Ionic Breeze is wonderful. :boggled:
 
If you have any evidence of this design, you could post it. The Consumer Reports reviewers did not think it worked better than a comparable fan. My brother thinks his Ionic Breeze is wonderful. :boggled:
the base of the 12in dyson model is about 4 inches across, which means there cant be anything much bigger than a 3-inch fan in there, yet its comparable to a 12in table fan

also, consumer reports called it an impeller, not a fan
 
There is a fan in the base. It is not a bladeless fan. I've never said the design wasn't original.

No, there is an impeller. Obviously you don't know the difference.

It does not 'amplify the air'. It does not do what it claims.

Prove it.

It's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

Yep. Looks like you'll be bailing on yet another thread after being completely humiliated.

My argument is with the fake claim, it amplifies the air. That terminology is specifically intended to deceive the consumer.

Only the ones too stupid to understand how it works.
 
<snip>

Don't confuse my long time disgust toward Dyson's marketing scams with some irrelevant "looking for a fight". This guy's been on my skeptics' pet peeve list for years.

<snip>


So he's a "fraud" because you find his advertising distasteful?

That could spread the definition kinda thin.


Funny about that. It was the "bagless" feature which made his vacuum cleaner one of the most popular in the UK.

Do you remember when vacuum cleaner bags weren't disposable. I do. They were no fun to empty, either. Less, if truth be told.
I've seen cloth bags, but never used them. If that's what Dyson was replacing he overlooked the disposable bag era.


He didn't overlook it. He destroyed it. Like buggy whips.

Apparently the rest of the industry had just gotten everyone sold on the idea of disposable bags, and then he went and screwed up a perfectly good vacuum cleaner bag market by coming out with his design. It seems that the inconvenience of bagless vacuums wasn't as much of a deterrent as you suggest.

Too bad Hoover didn't have the benefit of your engineering and marketing wisdom. They wouldn't have had to lose that $5 million in court for stealing his design.
Again you are talking patents and market share, not evidence of a better mousetrap.


The fact that they were willing to try and steal his design is evidence that it did something better than what they had. The fact that a court thought it was a patent violation worth $5 million suggests that it might be more than marketing expertise.
 
Isn't it just despicable the way some people will prostitute pure science for tawdry profit? Even worse, using confusing and underhanded marketing techniques to sell their brand.

It's a good thing Edison didn't do that.

Oh ... wait.

(Why am I thinking of dead elephants?)
Ooooh, he uses big words and shiny things. Sounds impressive.

OK, let's look at this empirically.

First, the fan. That's what a fan in a vacuum cleaner and a leaf blower looks like. Dyson is clever to apply common technology in new ways that makes you wonder why no one did it sooner. I said that about his ball joint wheelbarrow and the vacuum handle. I don't have an issue with this kind of cleverness. Just as I don't have an issue with marketing a unique fan design, as a unique design. It's the flimflam claim of "air multiplier" that I have an issue with in this case.

So how about airflow over the wing shape and the "viscous shear"? Remember, this is a static shape with wind being moved over it, not a wing moving through air. In the case of a wing, the air pressure difference between the top of the wing and the bottom of the wing are effecting lift due to air pressure gradient. That's not what Dyson is claiming. But it sounds good in a marketing pitch.

Dyson explains lift but in his device there is no wing moving through air, there is no air flowing underneath a shorter distance, lift is not relevant. He states that blowing air over a curved surface creates negative pressure. It does. But that lower pressure and faster velocity doesn't affect the fan's wind force after it leaves the curved surface nor does it recruit more air into the flow.

Look at the moving diagram of wind flow around an airfoil in this link. The wind speeds up only while over the wing. As soon as the air leaves the wing, it resumes the same air speed as the wind that did not speed up flowing over the flat surface. The airflow only changes while it is over the wing, and you can get lift, but you get zero effect after the wind leaves the wing. There's some drag on the surface of the wing, and no negative pressure drawing air into the ring that I can see. I'm pretty sure the negative pressure is only over the wing's surface, not behind it.

Just as pressure changes in a fluid flowing through a tube when the tube narrows, that change in pressure doesn't suck more fluid through the narrowed area. It goes against the laws of physics. The volume moving into the narrowing and out of the narrowing is the same. Only the pressures and speed change within the narrowing. If it created the suction Dyson claims, that would have to be a siphon effect. He doesn't have a siphon effect in his fan. You can't get a siphon with a gas, only with a liquid.

Air will flow from higher pressure to a lower pressure, but Dyson claims his fan is "amplifying the air in 3 ways". The air coming out of the fan is higher pressure than the ambient air. That higher pressure is in between the lower pressure of the air flowing over the wing and the ambient air behind the fan. The air leaving the wing resumes the same speed and pressure as the air that emerged from the fan (minus the drag the air molecules were affected by as they moved over the wing). There is drag and no outflow amplification.

And it is highly unlikely Dyson doesn't know that. He has to know he's flimflamming.

So what about 'viscous shear'?
Dyson, "You add more air through something called viscous shearing."

According to this article, 'Viscous shear' wears down sound waves
It works due to the interaction of porous media with the air through which sound propagates. Sound waves are forced into the parallel tubes which make up the honeycomb-like structure where they shear against the sides losing energy through friction and compressive stresses.
(emphasis mine)

I may not have the right concept here beings as physics is not my field, but what this looks like to me is Dyson is claiming the laminar flow of the air is supposed to recruit air molecules due to the different viscosities of the air layers. But that would slow the air down, not speed it up or recruit air molecules moving from more viscous air to faster moving less viscous air.

Again, Dyson has to know he's flimflamming here.


As for eliminating the buffeting, I have a small fan in front of me. Maybe there is a tad bit of buffeting right at the fan's surface. At 1.5 to 2 feet from the fan, the buffeting becomes imperceptible.

We also have the Consumer Reports review that says the fan's output is nothing special. It would be nice to know the efficiency rating and compare two fans of the same power usage. But the bottom line here is there is not a very big difference.


That sales video demonstrates my point about Dyson, not the special physics of his fan. I'll defer to a physics expert if one joins the thread and explains where I've mucked up my understanding here. I'm not an expert in airflow, but I understand the basics of pressure dynamics.
 
So he's a "fraud" because you find his advertising distasteful?
Not distasteful, fraudulent.





Apparently the rest of the industry had just gotten everyone sold on the idea of disposable bags, and then he went and screwed up a perfectly good vacuum cleaner bag market by coming out with his design. It seems that the inconvenience of bagless vacuums wasn't as much of a deterrent as you suggest.
Could you address the problem of dumping the canister and having extremely fine dust float out over the trash bin instead of ignoring that point?




The fact that they were willing to try and steal his design is evidence that it did something better than what they had. The fact that a court thought it was a patent violation worth $5 million suggests that it might be more than marketing expertise.
Again, how about addressing what I said instead of repeating what you said? There is a billion, maybe trillion dollar industry selling fraudulent things from homeopathy to Ionic Breezes. If Ionic Breezes took a market share of the air filter business and Walmart made a cheap imitation and was successfully sued over patent infringement, that is testimony to successful marketing. It is not evidence of a valid claim that the Ionic Breezes did what was claimed in the commercials.

Dyson marketed bagless vacuums claiming his design had better function. Regardless of your preference for choking in a cloud of fine dust when you empty the Dyson canister, his design did not produce better suction as claimed according to objective evaluations like Consumer Reports.
 
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the base of the 12in dyson model is about 4 inches across, which means there cant be anything much bigger than a 3-inch fan in there, yet its comparable to a 12in table fan

also, consumer reports called it an impeller, not a fan
Google images for impeller fans

If you've ever taken apart a leaf blower or a vacuum cleaner, these are the kind of fans they use. They are still fans and they all have some kind of blades.
 
Ooooh, he uses big words and shiny things. Sounds impressive.


Which big words were you impressed by? Your vocabulary must be more limited than I thought.

That's all right. We'll put the "E" in JREF for you. Just ask if you need help.

OK, let's look at this empirically.


Okay. Let's. :)

<snip>

So how about airflow over the wing shape and the "viscous shear"? Remember, this is a static shape with wind being moved over it, not a wing moving through air. In the case of a wing, the air pressure difference between the top of the wing and the bottom of the wing are effecting lift due to air pressure gradient. That's not what Dyson is claiming. But it sounds good in a marketing pitch.

<snip>


You should have stopped there. You believe that there is a fundamental difference between an airfoil being stationary and the medium being in motion and the medium being stationary and the airfoil being in motion?



That was enough to establish that you are right about this one thing ...

I'm not an expert in airflow,


... and completely wrong about this.

but I understand the basics of pressure dynamics.

Tell me. Can you explain why a sailboat can sail faster than the available wind speed? Or why straight downwind is not the fastest point of sail?

(Hint: The two answers are related.)
 
Google images for impeller fans

If you've ever taken apart a leaf blower or a vacuum cleaner, these are the kind of fans they use. They are still fans and they all have some kind of blades.
yes, i already said its the same kind as in a vacuum cleaner, and yes leaf blowers also have the same thing. but its in no way the same as a common house fan other than it moves air, if it was those little electric turbochargers they used to sell on ebay for 15 dollar (essentially a PC fan you mount in your cars air intake) would be as effective as a 1000 dollar turbocharger

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impeller
note the word "fan" appears nowhere on that page
 
Not distasteful, fraudulent.


Did you catch my reference to dead elephants? Do you consider Edison to be a fraud?

Could you address the problem of dumping the canister and having extremely fine dust float out over the trash bin instead of ignoring that point?


Sure. My approach is to put the canister down into the bottom of a large plastic garbage bag, and empty it while it's in there. Others might step outside while doing it. There's more than one way to empty something. You don't have to stand above your trash can and dump the thing from on high. Be creative. It's a challenge that many others have risen to, and overcome successfully. This may be why the vacuum cleaner bag industry is all but defunct.

I haven't run into any vacuum cleaners which are a pure joy to empty, and that includes Rainbows, which have no dust at all. (Maybe especially Rainbows. They have mud instead.)


Again, how about addressing what I said instead of repeating what you said? There is a billion, maybe trillion dollar industry selling fraudulent things from homeopathy to Ionic Breezes. If Ionic Breezes took a market share of the air filter business and Walmart made a cheap imitation and was successfully sued over patent infringement, that is testimony to successful marketing. It is not evidence of a valid claim that the Ionic Breezes did what was claimed in the commercials.


How about explaining why the Dyson vacuum cleaner is a scam, instead of blathering on about Ionic Breezes, trying to manage some sort of guilt by contamination.

Dyson marketed bagless vacuums claiming his design had better function. Regardless of your preference for choking in a cloud of fine dust when you empty the Dyson canister, his design did not produce better suction as claimed according to objective evaluations like Consumer Reports.


Dyson marketed his vacuums by claiming that they didn't suffer from the gradually reduced function which affects a vacuum cleaner with a bag, since there was no filtering effect clogging the pores of the bag. The design created an air motion within the canister which kept the vacuumed debris out of the primary airflow path. They did indeed do exactly that. If you have a Consumer Reports study which demonstrates otherwise please link to it.

A quick scan of vacuum cleaner comparisons in Google, comparing latest model top machines and done by relatively independent sources, does not seem to be classifying the Dyson products as Ionic Breeze type scams. In fact, they seem to be rating them pretty consistently at the top.
 
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...
You should have stopped there. You believe that there is a fundamental difference between an airfoil being stationary and the medium being in motion and the medium being stationary and the airfoil being in motion?
There is a difference between lift of a wing and "air amplification", yes. There is a difference in how a wing shape creates lift and in claiming the pressure change over a wing recruits or pulls more air with it.

It would really help if you would address Dyson's claims about how his fan is amplifying the air. I'm certainly not arguing about how the shape of a wing effects lift.

... Tell me. Can you explain why a sailboat can sail faster than the available wind speed? Or why straight downwind is not the fastest point of sail?

(Hint: The two answers are related.)
No need. The effects of wind over surfaces with a wing and a sail are not what Dyson is claiming. He describes those effects and implies they amplify the air in his fan. How about you explain how the Dyson fan amplifies air instead. I'm willing to read and contemplate how you think it happens.

How does the air which flows over the wing shape at one pressure and speed maintain that 'amplification' once it is no longer flowing over the wing?

How does viscous shear, (if that even occurs with this fan, Dyson says it with hand waving, not specifics), amplify air instead of slowing it down?


I'll see if I can recruit some physics expertise here to weigh in.
 
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There is a difference between lift of a wing and "air amplification", yes. There is a difference in how a wing shape creates lift and in claiming the pressure change over a wing recruits or pulls more air with it.

It would really help if you would address Dyson's claims about how his fan is amplifying the air. I'm certainly not arguing about how the shape of a wing effects lift.

<snip more struggle with understanding>


SG. I wish I could help you here, but I'm getting the feeling that you're more interested in being right than in being enlightened, and I fear that efforts at explanation will be discarded even if they are within the limits of your current grasp of physics.

The video which Scrut posted gives a very succinct explanation of how the device works, and answers all the questions which you are asking. If you have the basic knowledge to follow it. As Scrut commented, the design is very clever. It isn't woo, and if you keep your eyes on the claims Dyson actually makes, and not on what you want to think the ads are claiming then there isn't even any real exaggeration.

I wasn't teasing you about the sailboat questions. (Well, maybe a little bit, :blush:). It merits some reflection on your part, and maybe even a bit of study, but it could be helpful.

Many people who don't sail are encumbered with a view that the boat is pushed through the water by a wind. This is not strictly true, and a more useful way to think about the process involves thinking of it as being sucked forward. A sail works on exactly the same principle as an airplane wing, and it is not in error to visualize an airplane as being sucked up into the sky.

Additionally, a sailboat, when not sailing directly downwind, can achieve speeds greater than available windspeed because the vector of the true wind and the vector of the wind created by the boat's own motion combine in an additive vector which creates an "apparent" wind that is greater than either of the two. This webpage may help, if you're interested.)

The seemingly non-intuitive performance of sailing a Hobie Cat at 18 or 20 knots in a 15 knot wind is easily understood when you have internalized these principles. Sailboat designs can achieve twice true wind speed, and many do. Is this 'air amplification'? Maybe, but there's nothing wooish about it. Most good sailors will immediately recognize what the Dyson fan is doing and say, "Clever."

This is why I suggest that you may be mistaken when you say you "understand the basics of pressure dynamics."
 
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He describes those effects and implies they amplify the air in his fan. How about you explain how the Dyson fan amplifies air instead. I'm willing to read and contemplate how you think it happens

What definition is he using for "air amplification?" What would seem reasonable to me is if the volume of air being sped by the fan is larger than the volume of air going through the intake of the fan, then it's been amplified. Does it do that? Is the volume 3x the input?

ETA: Looking at the video Scrut posted, that's exactly the definition he is using and he claims the air is multiplied 16 times.
 
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I'm seeing a venturi shroud in his 'fan'. I believe it functions by moving a relatively large quantity of air through a smaller airfoil, increasing its speed. Such shrouds are used on certain wind turbines. In Dyson's fan, there is no wind, so the airflow is induced with an impeller. Reminds me of a sump pump.
 
Ooooh, he uses big words and shiny things. Sounds impressive.

OK, let's look at this empirically.

:words::words::words:

Translation: I don't understand how it works, therefore it's a scam.


I'm not an expert in airflow, but I understand the basics of pressure dynamics.

Do you understand the "basics of pressure dynamics" as well as you "understand" the basics of genetics? You know, the whole sheep with a human face thing. :cool:
 
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