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A Skeptic's Cognitive Dissonance

Is there a difference between ignoring evidence vs. not believing in it?
Is it the same?

I was wondering what you might say about someone who considers themselves skeptical, but who refuses to act on the evidence. Let's say in the case of a skeptic who smokes, he knows it causes cancer, yet still smokes.

The key to this dilemma is the notion of what constitutes 'evidence'. As skeptics often use the word, it creates some problems which could be avoided if we really considered what the term is understood to mean.

'Evidence' is a subjective quality we apply to any observation. This quality connects that observation with concepts we accept describe the universe. As it is subjective, it's possible that an observation I find to be evidence is not considered evidence to somebody else.

This lies at the heart of a good majority of arguments between skeptics and believers. What constitutes 'evidence' for an idea is a bit like arguing whether a sunset truly is beautiful.

Now, for evidence to be considered useful, we could apply a set of criteria to it. These criteria are marked against a set of values we deem to be important (whether we put a lot of consideration into them or not). Some of us will have values that attempt to adhere to logic, internal consistency and value the opinions of others who share the same values. Others might value evidence according to how well it reflects a more supernatural notion, or reflects personal sentiments and emotional qualities, such as intuition. One set of values can be demonstrated to be more useful in making predictions that have a relatively high chance at eventuating.

Telling somebody they have no evidence is therefore not only going to encourage them to not listen to you, it's also wrong. What is more truthful is that their evidence is based on values that are less likely to prove useful in making decisions about objective events.

The question of ignoring evidence vs. refusing to believe it seems to be a fine line between the skeptic and the believer. I'm sure I could think of additional examples, maybe climate change and continuing to buy fossil fuels vs. an alternative, or that vegetarian lifestyles could be better for the planet in general? I think there are many cases where we as skeptics might accept the evidence for something, but simply not change or modify our lifestyles to suit the new evidence for something. :o

How we use observations and interpret them as evidence is one thing. How we change our behaviour in response to it depends again on that hierarchy of values.

Look at it this way - I'm the sort of guy who likes a cigarette when I'm out having a few drinks. I don't ever smoke otherwise, and even then, I'll only light up two or three cigarettes once every six months or so.

The observations I recognise as evidence for the harm smoking does are normally enough for me to not take it up as a habit (not to mention the other side-effects). Those observations don't disappear on the evenings I do have a cigarette, nor are they no longer evidential. They simply are lower down the list, with other factors taking precedence. That doesn't mean I ignore the evidence, as such. It does mean there are other needs which my brain sees as more important during those moments.

This translates to most situations. You might value money, yet if you were starving, you'd happily part with your cash for a morsel to chew on. You wouldn't argue that there is no evidence that it's important to save - you'd just have more pressing arguments changing the context of the argument.

Athon
 
I guess I like to be rational and make well informed judgments, but I also do many extreme sports and take certain calculated risks (and get injured too) so I guess it's not all that different.

That said, I suppose all of this is simply a matter of good reasoning and judgment, and my reasons for smoking are not good.

As for preaching, I had become a little preachy about skepticism when I first discovered the "movement" to support science, reason and critical thinking. It's somewhat challenging to withhold your opinion about people's quirky beliefs or rituals when you know they are bunk. I've since matured a bit and don't spoil as many dinner parties! :eek:

p


That sounds entirely reasonable. :)

In my own day-to-day existence, I tend to keep my opinions to myself. If someone asks, of course then I'll tell them, in as brief a manner as possible. If I'm asked to elucidate, then I'll get a cup of coffee for my interlocutor and myself, light a cigarette (if the other person doesn't mind), and hold forth in my inimitable way. :)


M.
 
If someone smokes they smoke because they want to, depending on your definition of want. It comes down to motivation. If a person was to hold a gun at the child of a nicotine addict and threaten to shoot the child if the person smoked, the person would choose to not smoke.
There is a Rationalist philosophy created by an Australian which claims to be able to overcome CD. It is called Maxism. There is a website on it which is I can't give as I am a newbie.
 
One book about overcoming addiction tells a funny story, about a woman who gave up smoking with the help of one of the authors, but the day after she saw him about it, she phoned his office in a terrible panic, shouting that she was so desperate for a cigarette that she was ready to murder her children. When she rang, the author was busy doing therapy with someone else, but his receptionist told her to ring back in 20 minutes.

She rang promptly, still in a panic. The author knew she wouldn't be able to think clearly enough in that state to be reasoned with, since people who are feeling very emotional find it more difficult to think. So he got her to slow her breathing down for a few minutes, which calms the system so it's relaxing, and then he asked her some questions:

He asked if she'd ever had a desperately painful toothache and she said yes.
Then he asked which was worst, her craving for cigarettes or the toothache, and immediately she said the toothache.

Then he asked whether she'd ever had a mild, nagging toothache that she found it hard to get rid of, and she said yes.
He asked her to think about it, and then he asked which was worse, the mild toothache or her craving for cigarettes; and after a pause, she said that if she was honest, she'd have to say that the toothache had been worse.

Then he asked her how long her cravings for cigarettes usually lasted, and she said they lasted a good five minutes!

Then he said, "So, let's get this clear, you are ready to murder your children for a degree of discomfort that is milder than a slight, nagging toothache and which lasts for just five minutes?"

The book says the woman burst out laughing. She realised that her cravings were actually rather mild, and it had been her over-emotional reaction to them that had made them seem so terrible. When she realised that, she was able to come off cigarettes with no problem.
 
One book about overcoming addiction tells a funny story, about a woman who gave up smoking with the help of one of the authors, but the day after she saw him about it, she phoned his office in a terrible panic, shouting that she was so desperate for a cigarette that she was ready to murder her children. When she rang, the author was busy doing therapy with someone else, but his receptionist told her to ring back in 20 minutes.

She rang promptly, still in a panic. The author knew she wouldn't be able to think clearly enough in that state to be reasoned with, since people who are feeling very emotional find it more difficult to think. So he got her to slow her breathing down for a few minutes, which calms the system so it's relaxing, and then he asked her some questions:

He asked if she'd ever had a desperately painful toothache and she said yes.
Then he asked which was worst, her craving for cigarettes or the toothache, and immediately she said the toothache.

Then he asked whether she'd ever had a mild, nagging toothache that she found it hard to get rid of, and she said yes.
He asked her to think about it, and then he asked which was worse, the mild toothache or her craving for cigarettes; and after a pause, she said that if she was honest, she'd have to say that the toothache had been worse.

Then he asked her how long her cravings for cigarettes usually lasted, and she said they lasted a good five minutes!

Then he said, "So, let's get this clear, you are ready to murder your children for a degree of discomfort that is milder than a slight, nagging toothache and which lasts for just five minutes?"

The book says the woman burst out laughing. She realised that her cravings were actually rather mild, and it had been her over-emotional reaction to them that had made them seem so terrible. When she realised that, she was able to come off cigarettes with no problem.
Part of the problem is also about choice and the stress involved because of it. I knew a bloke who was a heavy nicotine addict who worked with a mineral exploration company in the outback. Their supplies would come in by helicopter.
His workmates who were all non-smokers deliberately forgot to order his smokes so he had a choice of either giving up or attempting to walk a couple of hundred miles to the nearest shop knowing he would die of thirst on the way.
He "chose" to stay without his cigarettes and he told me he was surprised how non-painful it was other than a few headaches. He had previously tried to give up without success when he was living in town because he was always faced with the choice of smoking or not smoking, which gave him CD.
 
One book about overcoming addiction tells a funny story, about a woman who gave up smoking with the help of one of the authors, but the day after she saw him about it, she phoned his office in a terrible panic, shouting that she was so desperate for a cigarette that she was ready to murder her children. When she rang, the author was busy doing therapy with someone else, but his receptionist told her to ring back in 20 minutes.

She rang promptly, still in a panic. The author knew she wouldn't be able to think clearly enough in that state to be reasoned with, since people who are feeling very emotional find it more difficult to think. So he got her to slow her breathing down for a few minutes, which calms the system so it's relaxing, and then he asked her some questions:

He asked if she'd ever had a desperately painful toothache and she said yes.
Then he asked which was worst, her craving for cigarettes or the toothache, and immediately she said the toothache.

Then he asked whether she'd ever had a mild, nagging toothache that she found it hard to get rid of, and she said yes.
He asked her to think about it, and then he asked which was worse, the mild toothache or her craving for cigarettes; and after a pause, she said that if she was honest, she'd have to say that the toothache had been worse.

Then he asked her how long her cravings for cigarettes usually lasted, and she said they lasted a good five minutes!

Then he said, "So, let's get this clear, you are ready to murder your children for a degree of discomfort that is milder than a slight, nagging toothache and which lasts for just five minutes?"

The book says the woman burst out laughing. She realised that her cravings were actually rather mild, and it had been her over-emotional reaction to them that had made them seem so terrible. When she realised that, she was able to come off cigarettes with no problem.

Cognitive psychology at its best!
 
Part of the problem is also about choice and the stress involved because of it. I knew a bloke who was a heavy nicotine addict who worked with a mineral exploration company in the outback. Their supplies would come in by helicopter.
His workmates who were all non-smokers deliberately forgot to order his smokes so he had a choice of either giving up or attempting to walk a couple of hundred miles to the nearest shop knowing he would die of thirst on the way.
He "chose" to stay without his cigarettes and he told me he was surprised how non-painful it was other than a few headaches. He had previously tried to give up without success when he was living in town because he was always faced with the choice of smoking or not smoking, which gave him CD.

Interesting.

My dad used to smoke a pipe. He gave up when one day, someone brought him lots of tobacco back from abroad. He realised he wasn't interested when he had so much in front of him, and then realised that part of the buzz for him personally had been always being on the verge of running out and feeling a drive to get more.

I don't think he had any problems giving up. But then he started eating salted peanuts instead and put on weight, till he realised it wasn't a good idea and stopped.
 
Is there a difference between ignoring evidence vs. not believing in it?

To get back to the original question:

I'm not sure I'd describe evidence as something in which I would believe. Proper evidence, acquired with proper procedures, subjected to peer review, etc. just is.

If I "believe" in anything it's that the Universe operates under a consistent set of laws which can be discovered, described (given enough time and intelligence on our part) and used to make predictions about said Universe, and that currently, the Scientific Method is our best way of discovering the above. Given the last several hundred years of scientific discovery, there is a great body of evidence to support the previous claim.

Having said that, I'd hasten to add humans are capable of rationality but not rational animals -- a subtle but yet huge difference.

So yes, we make strange decisions for "strange" (although I would argue explainable, ultimately from a biological/evolutionary perspective) decisions all the time.

Hey, even I do. ;-)
 
The book says the woman burst out laughing. She realised that her cravings were actually rather mild, and it had been her over-emotional reaction to them that had made them seem so terrible. When she realised that, she was able to come off cigarettes with no problem.
As a recent quitter myself, I totally get that.
 
[Side track personal quitting smoking anecdote]I was 19. I tried once to quit and wanted a cigarette every time I saw one or thought about it. So I started smoking again but this time went through a whole list of reasons to quit every time I lit up. It was bad for me, wasted money, and cigarette manufacturers propagated a lie that people couldn't quit with ads like, "Since you can't quit, smoke True." After another month or so, I threw my remaining half pack Marlboros out and haven't wanted a cigarette since. After about 2 more years, cigarettes began to smell bad to me and they still do to this day. Why that happened after a couple years remains a mystery.[/sidetrack]
 
Cognitive psychology at its best!

Really? It seems rather weak. Pain and psyological addiction are too different to be directly compared. That's like asking, "What's worse, chemical dependency, or stimulated peripheral nerves?" It's not relevant.

It's like REBT or cognitive therapy only works when you don't think.
 
Really? It seems rather weak. Pain and psyological addiction are too different to be directly compared. That's like asking, "What's worse, chemical dependency, or stimulated peripheral nerves?" It's not relevant.

It's like REBT or cognitive therapy only works when you don't think.

Oh I see. So if the woman had been a good thoughtful skeptically correct individual, when he asked what was worse, the toothache she'd once had or her craving, she should have said, "You can't compare physical pain with psychological addiction. No. I would still murder my children for a cigarette!" :p

Thank goodness skepticism isn't everything! :D

On paper, your views might seem correct. But I think having a dogmatic view that physical and psychological pain just can't be compared is blinkered. It's actually perfectly possible to compare them. If you asked people what they'd prefer to have, a broken leg or agoraphobia, for example, I suspect anyone who'd experienced the two, or anything like them, would have little difficulty deciding.
 
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Cognitive dissonance
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The "ideas" or "cognitions" in question may include attitudes and beliefs, and also the awareness of one's behavior. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a motivational drive to reduce dissonance by changing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors, or by justifying or rationalizing their attitudes, beliefs, and behaviors.

Another example of cognitive dissonance is someone spending half of their day on-line making pointless posts while thinking that the work they are suppose to be doing is somehow going to get done on time.

Thankfully, that's never been my problem... :rolleyes:
 
Another example of cognitive dissonance is someone spending half of their day on-line making pointless posts while thinking that the work they are suppose to be doing is somehow going to get done on time.

Thankfully, that's never been my problem... :rolleyes:

Me neither, welcome to the club.
 
Another example of cognitive dissonance is someone spending half of their day on-line making pointless posts while thinking that the work they are suppose to be doing is somehow going to get done on time.

Exactly. The time I waste here is irrelevant; it's the idiots that keep interrupting me that put me so far behind.

Gotta go, here's one now...
 

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