A show of supremacy: USA moves embassy to Jerusalem

[Mycroft]

Now for the serious answer: we don't know, Trump has not said that AFAIK. He hasn't denied it either, and frankly, with him everything is possible. Last night, Dutch Labour leader Lodewijk Asscher (a Jew) said that the move is like a "bull raging through a China shop where half of the cups and saucers are broken to begin with".

Why is it important that Lodewijk Asscher is Jewish?

I don't disagree with the characterization of Trump, but that's a separate issue.

I just did a bit of research, and it turns out the US consulate in Jerusalem is just barely on the Eastern side of the Green Line, and is there deliberately so it can serve the Palestinian population.

You're putting that as if the USA has ever put pressure on Israel. Quod non.

Don't be silly, of course the US pressures Israel. All diplomacy is pressure of some sort.

The USA has the simplest and most effective pressure lever ever: money. American aid to Israel is $1bn/year civilian and $2bn/year military. Has the USA ever threatened to cut that aid? No. Every time the IDF bulldozes a Palestinian house, because a cousin twice removed committed a terrorist action against Israel, that bulldozing is sponsored by the USA.

Show me evidence that "a cousin twice removed" is the standard for bulldozing a home.

 

[Mycroft]

What then is the relevance of that alleged fact, as far as settlements in the occupied areas are concerned? I say it makes no difference at all.

Alleged fact? Really?

One way it’s important is to highlight the hypocrisy of people who only see a problem with Israel taking land by force and who may not condemn other nations such as Egypt and Jordan who have also taken land by force and even refer to it as an “alleged fact”. You know, like they’re in denial that someone acting against Israel may have themselves done something wrong.

Another way it’s important is to remind you that previous to bits of it being illegally seized by Jordan and Egypt, these parts were a part of an integral whole, which was the British Mandate for Palestine, and that these lines which separate the West Bank and Gaza from the whole were armistice lines from the Israeli war of independence (often times called the “Nakba”) and do not comprise any official national border.

Interestingly, Palestinians also share this view, seeing the West Bank, Gaza, and everything in between (Israel) as part of an integral whole they call “Palestine”.

Do you say that Syria was in illegal occupation of Golan prior to 1967?

I think you need to re-read all of my previous statements and see if you can find me saying that. If you cannot find me saying that I think you should then be required to write “I will stop making up stupid straw-men” one hundred times on a chalkboard. Perhaps this would break you if this dishonest and time wasting debate tactic.

If not, do you condemn the subsequent Zionist clearance and settlement, and Israeli annexation, of that region, which we have discussed in the past?

I think if Syria wants it back they should be required to come to the table and make peace with Israel as a condition of getting it back, just like Egypt did with Israel for the Sinai Peninsula.

Do you think Israel should be required to make peace with enemies who refuse to make peace with Israel? If so, how do you justify this double standard?

 

[Craig B]

I think if Syria wants it back they should be required to come to the table and make peace with Israel as a condition of getting it back, just like Egypt did with Israel for the Sinai Peninsula.

Do you think Israel should be required to make peace with enemies who refuse to make peace with Israel? If so, how do you justify this double standard?

Then it makes no difference that allegedly Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of land. Syria was in unchallenged legal ownership, yet was treated like the others. So your reference to legality was mischievous. Golan has been cleared of its previous population, resettled and annexed. That displaced population was committing no crime. My prediction is that Jerusalem will be cleansed. In that case the annexation came first.

 

[Mycroft]

Then it makes no difference that allegedly Jordan and Egypt were in illegal occupation of land. Syria was in unchallenged legal ownership, yet was treated like the others. So your reference to legality was mischievous. Golan has been cleared of its previous population, resettled and annexed. That displaced population was committing no crime. My prediction is that Jerusalem will be cleansed. In that case the annexation came first.

You need to read the whole post, Craig.

Israel and Syria are still at war because Syria refuses to recognize Israel, unlike Jordan and Egypt who have both made Peace. When Egypt made peace, they got the Sinai Peninsula back.

 

[Noztradamus]

That seems a bad reason. The Knesset is the Israeli equivalent of the US Congress. Ambassadors and their deputies don't primarily talk with MPs, but with government ministers.

And if Israel was like the US, and not a parliamentary democracy, you might have a point.

 

[Hercules56]

No embassy has been moved.

I don't expect it to happen for a while.

There is already a US Consulate in Jerusalem and funny thing is it sits right smack on the 1949 Armistice Line. The State Department could easily simply declare the Consulate has turned into an embassy.

But they won't be doing that any time soon, unless they are truly insane.

 

[Checkmite]

Did anybody happen to notice that yesterday the entirety of the OIC unanimously declared that it no longer recognizes the US as the impartial facilitator of the Israel/Palestine peace process, and is currently seeking another nation to fulfil that role?

 

[theprestige]

Did anybody happen to notice that yesterday the entirety of the OIC unanimously declared that it no longer recognizes the US as the impartial facilitator of the Israel/Palestine peace process, and is currently seeking another nation to fulfil that role?

About time.

 

[Craig B]

You need to read the whole post, Craig.

Israel and Syria are still at war because Syria refuses to recognize Israel, unlike Jordan and Egypt who have both made Peace. When Egypt made peace, they got the Sinai Peninsula back.

I don't think Sinai is in the Biblical Promised land, so the Jewish and Christian Zionists are reluctant to settle it, and prepared to relinquish it. But in no circumstances will they give up Golan or E Jerusalem.

After God brought the ten plagues on the Egyptians, they allowed the Israelites to leave the land of Egypt and to begin their journey to the "promised land." ... After leaving Mt. Sinai, the Israelites headed toward the promised land.​

https://truthfortheworld.org/bcc/courses/bcc_ibs_l8.html

 

[JJM 777]

Security for the new site must be off the scale, nevermind finding a location.

There is a lot of land "available", in eastern Jerusalem. Just evict the locals. Then start negotiating peace with... uhh, those locals.

 

[JJM 777]

Is the embassy going to be built in the parts of Jerusalem that are disputed?

No.

I don’t see that any pressure is being applied to the Palestinian side

You may not have noticed the roadblocks, the huge military wall, the nightly curfews, the expropriation of lands, imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians, the trade and transportation restrictions both for imports and exports, the difficulty of Palestinians abroad getting a visa to visit Palestinian lands, the fear of locals to travel abroad if they might not be allowed to return back home.

How much more pressure do you want on Palestinians?

How does it say that?

By acknowledging the legitimacy of land grabbed by military force.

 

[JJM 777]

Don't be silly, of course the US pressures Israel.

Look at Cuba, and you know what it means when USA wants to pressure a country.

No, USA is not pressuring Israel. It may softly express some very humble suggestions from time to time, without demanding that any suggestions are listened to.

 

[JJM 777]

I don't think Sinai is in the Biblical Promised land

What about the Greater Israel promised to Abraham? It reached from... here to there, lots of area.

 

[Checkmite]

Quick question - when was the last time the United States was the sole dissenting vote on a Security Council resolution?

 

[The Don]

Quick question - when was the last time the United States was the sole dissenting vote on a Security Council resolution?

I don't know but there have been many times when the US has been the sole dissenting voice w.r.t. Israel over the decades.


edited to add:

Here is a list and the last time the US exercised it veto in the Security Council was 2011 - subject "Middle East situation, including the Palestinian question"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_vetoed_United_Nations_Security_Council_resolutions

Since then it's been Russia and/or China doing the vetoing...

 

[ponderingturtle]

You may not have noticed the roadblocks, the huge military wall, the nightly curfews, the expropriation of lands, imprisonment of thousands of Palestinians, the trade and transportation restrictions both for imports and exports, the difficulty of Palestinians abroad getting a visa to visit Palestinian lands, the fear of locals to travel abroad if they might not be allowed to return back home.

How much more pressure do you want on Palestinians?

"The Beatings will continue until Morale Improves" is highly effective HR policy so why not foreign policy?

 

[theprestige]

Quick question - when was the last time the United States was the sole dissenting vote on a Security Council resolution?

Not just a dissenting voice - a veto. This must be the show of supremacy the OP was talking about.

 

[JJM 777]

Not just a dissenting voice - a veto. This must be the show of supremacy the OP was talking about.

The Security Council, whose role affects the whole UN more broadly, is designed on supremacy of the winning powers of WWII. It seemed like a good design back then. Nowadays USA feels frustrated that it is not the sole supreme country, alas, a handful of lesser powers have the same veto rights.

 

[The Don]

More aggressive words from the US regarding Jerusalem:

The US says it "will be taking names" during a UN General Assembly vote on a resolution criticising its recognition of Jerusalem as Israel's capital.

Permanent representative Nikki Haley warned member states that President Donald Trump had asked her to report on "who voted against us" on Thursday.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-42424666

The other 14 members of the Security Council voted in favour of the draft, but Ms Haley described it as an "insult" and warned that "it won't be forgotten".

Are the US attempting to alienate all their allies so that they can sit in the corner, complain about how mean the other kids are and whine that they have no friends ?

 

[Hellbound]

Are the US attempting to alienate all their allies so that they can sit in the corner, complain about how mean the other kids are and whine that they have no friends ?

They just take their cue from our president:

"The media/liberals/FBI/anyone the wrong color/too poor/who disagrees with me/who doesn't worship the smell of my flatulence is out to get me!"