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Split Thread A second impeachment

He should be impeached because he committed impeachable offenses. It is the right thing to do no matter whether it has any real effect or what the political consequences are. It is the right thing to do.
The cynical view is that doing something in politics because it is the right thing to do is hopelessly naive. And that's exactly why Trump should be impeached: if we can't do something this significant because it is the right thing to do, we're done as a society. It's only the cynical who think that cynicism is the way forward. The rest of us, however, do not need any of that crap.
 
Unfortunately, unless they get Moscow Mitch and a significant block of the Republican party on side, even if the house rushes things the case probably wouldn't be voted on in the senate until after Biden's inauguration.

So, if they fast-track it, they still won't remove Trump early but may end up looking 'sloppy'. So if they take their time, do things according to procedure, they may be able to highlight Trump's transgressions in a better way.

That could be their thinking.

It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.
 
I for one welcome this new and exciting normal in our governing process. I look forward to the next storming of the capital, bets on what it will be about? I think repealing Obamacare is the most likely.
 
It won't be. Since the Senate is out of session, it requires a unanimous vote to reconvene before the 20th. The Senate will be back on the 19th but only holding pro forma procedures. McConnell has said that they could convene for a Senate trial on January 20th at 1:00 PM.

Well how about this.

The Senate could go back in session. They have a job to do. They can go home when the job is done.

These aren't fry cooks at McDonalds. You don't just get to "clock out" and Fred Flintstone down the back of the dinosaur when it hits 5 o'clock.

They are public servants. Why are they deciding they'll get around to reacting to a coup based on their schedule?
 
So, a president inciting violence against institutions of democracy should not face repercussions?

Hans

He already is: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo

His support has absolutely tanked since the riot.

The only thing the world hates worse than a sore loser is a sore winner, so go Democrats!

...and reminds them that the election was stolen...

Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards:

WaPo - The Election was Stolen

Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism

Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged

Lot of very short memories about.

See above re: bad winners.
 
The day the internet up and decided that anyone who opposed you was being a hypocrite meant you didn't do anything wrong was... well one of the days intellectual standards died.
 
Not equivalent, because they didn't try a Dildonian Coup, but it's not like Democrats didn't have a very fat cry in 2016 and for years afterwards:

WaPo - The Election was Stolen

Hillary Clinton - We Still Don't Know What Happened (in 2016) and Would Have Argued About it but Lacked Mechanism

Many Democrats Think 2016 Was Rigged

Lot of very short memories about.

See above re: bad winners.
You're setting up a straw man. All (most of?) the other circumstances around Trump's high crimes are absent from 2016, and I never said that claiming an election was stolen is sufficient for impeachment, but it can be included as part of the reasons for impeachment. Especially when Trump's claims of fraud, etc., have been so thoroughly brought into court - 65 times! - to no avail.
 
It might be worth pointing out that nobody I have seen- here, in the media, or among GOP politicians- have suggested that the same "heal the divide" rationale for not impeaching Trump for inciting a mob to riot should also extend to not prosecuting the members of that mob for doing so. The guy who put his feet up on the desk in Pelosi's office, the idiot who carried off the lectern, the W. Va legislator, etc.- all these people face real consequences in the form of jail time, fines, loss of jobs, and so on.<snip>

Trump's defence is that he has nothing to do with 'low class things'. Although we could bring in his taste in furniture as exhibit A.
 
Meh. If Lindsey Graham's spine was made of spaghetti, it wouldn't even be al dente.

Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine...

It would show up the GOP for what it is.

I can imagine some handwringing, and statements that it wasn't the party of Nixon that they joined. Followed by them neither hindering nor helping the impeachment.
 
Yup. Which is why he'd lack the courage to vote to convict, but equally I suspect he'd lack the courage to go on record as saying it's all fine...

Which is why for an Impeachment vote, Senators shouldn't be able to abstain or be absent.

Everyone should have to go on record as to whether or not agree with the actions of President Trump and ******* own it.

No passing the buck, no staying in the corner, no mush-mouth middle of the road passiveness.
 
When it comes to criminal trials, I think The Atheist here is correct. I don't think he could be convicted, at least not based on the words of his speech. As he so often does, Trump uses weasel words, and someone else ends up holding the bag, and he denies responsibility. I was listening live to his speech, and I worried that the mob would storm the Capitol, but he didn't actually say that they ought to. It was painfully obvious to me, though, that some of the crowd would take it that way.

To get a criminal conviction, you would have to show that Donald Trump knew, beyond a reasonable doubt, that a criminal act would result from his incitement. That's a tough sell.


Impeachment is a different matter, though. There's no "beyond a reasonable doubt" standard.


I also wonder if somehow failing to call off the crowd could be a criminal offense. Could not protecting the Capitol somehow be considered criminal negligence? I'm usually strongly against any attempt to take ordinary actions and twist them into a criminal charge, In this case, his actions weren't ordinary, and I doubt they were criminal, but if it could be shown that he knew criminal actions were occurring, and he believed he could stop them, and he deliberately chose not to stop them, I think that would be criminal, but again it's a tough sell. It might depend, though, on the testimony of others.

In general, I would not put money on a conviction in a criminal trial. I think the standards are too high. However, he did incite that crowd to storm the Capitol, and I don't really care if he knew he was doing it, or if he did it accidentally via incompetence. Throw the bum out. The man should not be President, and I say that with confidence that goes beyond a reasonable doubt.

As you know, Trump fired a lot of top guys in the Pentagon and inserted his flunkies. If it can be shown that he conspired to have Capitol Hill building deliberately under-policed and a deliberate delay of the National Guard - or worse still a veto - then it could be possible to convict in a criminal trial.

There is a view that key 'demonstrators; were given detailed maps as inside knowledge would be needed to even know where, say, Pelosi's office is.
 
Trump should be removed from office, impeached, charged and convicted of his crimes against this nation, and thrown in jail.

The only question now is whether he should get the death penalty as a traitor to this country. I oppose the death penalty, but considering this President's desire to use it, I may make an exception for this case.

That is the only question. Whether he should be sentenced to life in prison or get the death penalty.

Impeachment is not even questionable. He should be impeached and convicted because he committed impeachable offenses. Period. No politics. No political strategy. He should be impeached for his offense.

He should be convicted for his crime of sedition. He should be sentenced to prison.

The only question is whether he should get the death penalty or a life sentnce.

Bring back Devil's Island. That's what I say.
 
You're setting up a straw man.

No, I specifically pointed out it isn't equivalent.

The point is that Hillary and many Democrats still insist she should/would have/did win in 2016 because Russians/Assange/FBI...

And they carried out violent protests, in case you forgot:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2016_Oakland_riots

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...ing-donald-trump-is-not-their-president-video

https://theconversation.com/after-t...ection-fear-protest-and-what-comes-next-68778

Seems to me both sides have their problems and maybe if the leaders took the lead and showed how to win gracefully, at least some Americans might respect that.

Feel free to keep going down the road to dissolving, though - I welcome our new Chinese overlords.

Try asking yourself what the best outcome for Xi, Putin and the mad Mullahs is here - an implacably opposed and divided country, or one where both sides can show at least some minimal cohesion?

(I still laugh about the massive **** fight RandFan and I had a decade ago when I said America was massively divided and he disagreed.)
 

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