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Split Thread A second impeachment

turingtest said:
If the Republicans want to heal the wound, the first thing they need to do is acknowledge their part in inflicting it.
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Not to mention stop inflicting it by removing Trump's power and making sure he can never get it back.

A wound can't heal if the knife is still in it.
 
Pixel42 said:
Not to mention stop inflicting it by removing Trump's power and making sure he can never get it back.

A wound can't heal if the knife is still in it.
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And the assumption always seems to be that the Democrats are the ones that have to take active steps to “heal the division”. If the republicans want to “heal the divisions” then they should start taking active steps to do so.
 
Pixel42 said:
Not to mention stop inflicting it by removing Trump's power and making sure he can never get it back.

A wound can't heal if the knife is still in it.
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Absolutely. If I were a reporter covering a pol who was using the "let's heal the nation" meme as cover for not wanting to go to the trouble of impeaching Trump, I would ask them two questions-

1) "Do you think the individuals who took part in the riot and can be identified should suffer legal consequences for what they did?"

(Hard for me to imagine any representative of the "law and order" party could say anything other than "yes")

2) "Then don't you think the man who incited the riot should at least suffer the consequence of having his power removed and being barred from ever holding the power again? Wouldn't it go a good ways toward healing to show that nobody is above the law?"

(Ok, that's three questions, so sue me)
 
Make no mistake, “heal the nation” means “appease Republicans” and nothing else.
 
The Atheist said:
Why are Democrats so ******* stupid?

You won, Trump disintegrated, so has his party.

Whatever the party thinks it might gain from impeachment, I can tell you what it will reap: the opposite of what's intended.

The Republican party is in tatters, and the one thing that will enable them to re-build is an attack from their common enemy, the Democratic Party.

It's a time to forgive and forget, try to build alliances, try to heal the divisions, not dig them deeper. Moderate Republicans are pissed off at Trump, but they'll be a lot more pissed off at stupid old **** Nancy Pelosi showboating and making idiotic assertions that Trump might start nuclear war,

She's an idiot, and so are all the members of her party supporting her. Even if it worked, it would turn Trump into a martyr, which is just what you don't need to do.

Utter insanity that will backfire.
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Well, so what do you suggest they do? Trump threatened Raffensberger and later turned a mob loose on the Capitol. Should they just shrug and let him have his pension? Are you mad? Nobody in the rest of the world would respect the US after that. Would you?

Hans

ETA: I realize it's a late answer, but I had to say it.
 
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If Trump isn't sanctioned somehow for this then it will become a legitimate tactic for anyone losing an election to call outa mob and try to overturn the results.
 
angrysoba said:
Ah, that's true.

Well, then. As I was saying before, at the very least, this should give everyone a very clear idea of where everyone in Congress stands.

Everyone playing the "maybe we should just let him slink off" card, and the whole "turn the other cheek" routine are basically saying they are cool with being slapped in the face by a fascist mob and don't want to press charges thank you (because we fear retaliation).

If you are advocating doing nothing out of fear then you are essentially calling for appeasement of the fascist mob.

Don't try to appease the scum!
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This is a kind of war, against democracy, and everyone knows where appeasement winds up. What side do you think those who push for appeasement are on in that war?
 
Maybe it's time to start a thread about Demagogue 2.0:
all the advantages of Trump without the incompetence and own-goals.
 
Darat said:
And the assumption always seems to be that the Democrats are the ones that have to take active steps to “heal the division”. If the republicans want to “heal the divisions” then they should start taking active steps to do so.
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This "heal the division" is absolute bullcrap, and we just crossed the line where we're gonna pretend differently. **** that. The ones who want to heal the division are the ones who fomented it. Give. Me. A. Break.
 
Dave Rogers said:
You must compare the results of doing it with the results of not doing it. If it is not attempted, Trunp will go unpunished. If Trump goes unpunished, someone competent will attempt the same thing, and may succeed. If it is attempted, the above is the worst likely outcome for the survival of democracy; all other outcomes are more likely to result in a lesser threat to it. If the aim is to preserve democracy, it should be attempted.

ObBob: I offer no opinion here as to whether preserving democracy is a good thing.

Dave
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I an getting the impression that the Dems may delay the impeachment for multiple reasons.

1. Is to hit the ground running passing as much legislation as possible and deal with COVID. Really make government an agent for change and betterment of the nation. Pass a trillion dollar infrastructure package.

2. To gather as much evidence as possible about Trump and his destructive actions and to identify and provide evidence of his co-conspirators
 
angrysoba said:
Spiteful??!?!? What the **** are you smoking??!!?

He incited a mob to storm the Capitol and overturn a democratic election. It is not spiteful to punish that.

What do you want the Democrats to do? Sing Kum-ba-ya!?
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So much this. He incited a coup attempt against his own state. His own vice president was threatened in the coup attempt, for crying out loud.

If he is not punished for this, it sets a terrible precedent. If some other demagogue, from the left or right-wing, loses in 2024, can he organise a mob and storm the capitol and force them to declare him president? After all, the precedent from 2021 would make this very legal and very cool.

People talk a lot about healing and reconciliation. It's precisely for the sake of healing and unity that the United States needs to prosecute Trump.

Heck, a large part of the reason why there have been protests all over the freaking country is that many citizens are sick of the inequality in how the police and justice system polices crime. I get that the Trumpkins would get pissed if their Führer and his cronies were put through a Nuremberg trial, but letting someone from the white elite get away with a freaking coup attempt would probably not be good for national stability either.
 
The Atheist said:
...Impeaching Trump will do the exact opposite and harden those voters' opposition to what they perceive as a bunch of over-entitled elites.
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Your claim has actually been proven to be false. Trump was already impeached by the Democrats even by partisan vote yet they have not only won the Presidency but also gained control of the Senate.

A second impeachment of Trump will completely destroy him.
 
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I think Trump is pretty much damaged goods.
Oh , he will still have a rabid cult following but the Mickey Mouse Republicans who voted for him will float away.
 
dejudge said:
Your claim has actually been proven to be false. Trump was already impeached by the Democrats and they have not only won the Presidency but also gained control of the Senate.

A second impeachment of Trump will completely destroy him.
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It's impossible to replay time with just one variable changed, so we will never know the other "what if" scenarios. However, to say that impeaching Trump was what caused the election victory is to commit the "post hoc ergo proctor hoc" fallacy.

In my opinion, had the pandemic not come along, Trump would have sailed to an easy win.

That's not an assertion that can be proven, for exactly the reason that I gave in my first paragraph, but we can at least investigate the issue somewhat scientifically. When pollsters talked to voters what was important to them, not many said anything that could remotely have been interpreted as "being impeached" or "adjusting foreign policy to dig dirt on political opponents."

I've been reading some more of the in depth articles about events of last week, and they really have influenced me. What he did really deserves removal from office, even if it is only one day. i.e. even if they couldn't manage to remove him before January 19th, he really ought to be removed from office. What he did was very, very, bad. Really bad. Not Hitler level bad, but more on the scale of Mussolini level bad. Maybe it would be a good thing to impeach again even if there aren't the votes for removal. And maybe I don't care if the Democrats are hurt politically in the event that they fail.

What needs to happen is for people to vote based on reality, not on who is on their team. I'm not sure you can get there from here, but you can't do it by deciding not to do the right thing because it's politically expedient not to. If the Democrats lose ground as a result of doing the right thing, it's a sign that people don't trust them, either, and think that they are grandstanding. Maybe they are right.

I feel that there is a real dearth of principled leadership in America right now. A stand on principle might be what the country needs, and if people judge that stand to be insincere, so be it.
 
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