Split Thread A second impeachment

[Mader Levap]

This absolutely NOT NOT NOT TRUE.
I can point you to Billionaires giving away all their money.

If you think bunch of giveaways/charities/whatever at end of their pathetic lives will make up for decades of abuse, they you are very, very mistaken.

Unfortunately, as shown above, this kind of tactic is very effective. Gullible crowd swallows it line, hook and sinker. Quite cheap way to fix their reputation.

 

[The Atheist]

That has to be one of the most ignorant things I've heard today.

Yeah, giving him more publicity and allowing him to play the martyr is a much better idea.

There is also a political reason. To force Republicans to turn their back on Trumpism. It's likely to cause a fissure in the GOP, but it is necessary.

They already have. McConnell & Pence are now seen as his enemies as much, or maybe even more, than Democrats.

 

[Garrison]

Why does 'healing the country' seem to mean the Democratic Party reaching out and making concessions to the Replublicans? Isn't that more likely to simply convince the Republicans that they were right in the first place. For there to be healing the Republicans need to face up to the fact that they are the ones who've promoted divisive and incendiary policies, all while being the sycophants of the narcissistic buffoon in the White House? You don't get to complain about how broken the country is when you are the ones who broke.

The Republicans want to show they are serious about 'healing'? Vote to impeach Trump.

 

[dirtywick]

Yeah, giving him more publicity and allowing him to play the martyr is a much better idea .

he’s been doing that for four years.

it’s possible throwing up their hands and saying “he’s been punished enough” fractures the Dem coalition that got Biden elected. To try and appease people who will never be appeased to hope trump will stop playing the victim. His whole brand is playing the victim.

the message needs to be that no one is above the law.

 

[LongFuzzy]

I'm sure McConnell is analyzing the possibilities. I think McConnell, Cruz, Graham and others hate Trump, but had to hitch their wagons to the Trump train to keep their jobs. (Like Harris hates Biden, but will pretend to like him, so that she can be V.P.) Now they have the opportunity to unhitch. They have to be thinking 'how will that affect my career and my party'. (I don't think they really care very much about the crime and punishment part of it) Having Trump barred from running for office again would be a big incentive for the Republicans, but are they willing to impeach to get there? They need 2/3 to impeach, so 16 or 17 Republicans would have to go along with it. Can McConnell find the necessary sacrificial pawns to accomplish that? After that, since the Senate will be Democrat majority after the new senators are seated, the Democrats can bar Trump from office without the Republicans approval, which might be attractive to the Republican leadership. I think it's more of a political chess game, then actually 'he did bad so punish him' although that's how it will be presented to the people.

 

[Lurch]

If there were more than days left, you'd have a point.

As this stage of the presidency, it looks spiteful.

Let's face it - the 70 million people who voted Trump aren't all insane lunatics, and I think an olive branch to them would play a lot better than punishing a bloke who's already been cut off from his communication systems, repudiated by his party and VP, and is now a very small step from being Alex Jones II.

Take a look at Trump's approval rating. It will be under 30% once all the polls catch up with the attack on the Capitol. Some of the 10-15% support he's losing are there to be taken, and I don't believe impeachment will attract any of them.

What point is another impeachment other than a smug "Gotcha!"?



Nancy Pelosi is hated by Republicans more than any Democrat, and probably more than all the others added together.

Her net worth is $120M.

If you can't see how she is the perfect embodiment of privileged elite, I don't know who would be. We used to call people like her "champagne Socialists" (now prosecco, I believe) and they serve no purpose other than to be a target for Conservatives to point out the hypocrisy of the left.

I bet she spends a hell of a lot on shoes.



History & human nature.

A huge swath of Trump votes were anti-establishment, anti-elite votes. Lots of the 70M who voted for Trump are actually decent people and would love to see a way out of the hole they've dug for themselves.

Honey v vinegar.



The traditional republicans will never change and need not be targeted.

It's that 10-15% of all voters who voted Trump but aren't die-hard Republicans. The moderate christians, the educated people, hard-working Latino families - people who despise the left. If you manage to convince even 1% of the voters that the Democratic Party is worth voting for, you've probably guaranteed the next election.

It may not work, but what's been lost if it doesn't?

More importantly, what's been gained from impeachment?

Quite the hang-up on Pelosi ya got going there. Supposedly Trump's a billionaire, but spends more time and energy on TV, tweeting, and golf than on doing his goddamned job. Why aren't you whining about him being some rich, coastal elite who belongs back in his gold leaf-bedecked den of iniquity?

And as to leaving the traitorous bastard to consequence-free slink back to his den... Screw that. The GOP haled Hillary before their Kangaroo committees over Benghazzi and the death of four Americans thousands of miles away. Surely the Rump should face music over inciting a mob that lead to the deaths of five Americans a few blocks away.

And I'll echo the voices of others here who rightfully point out the effrontery of the *****' GOP would dare to now beg for *forgetting* in order to heal. After *participating* themselves in the effort to subvert democracy. Only when they're in the uncomfortable position to have to justify themselves, or show their true colors, do they mincingly fake meekness and reasonableness. Just like drumpf himself. Outta one side of their lyin' pieholes one minute the disingenuous platitudes to save themselves the embarrassment. Then in the next minute, back to their old ways of anti-democratic obstruction and cheating. Waiting for Trump 2.0, who'll be a slicker, more competent Fuhrer that obtains the desired dominance by the fearful white minority. This rotten, soulless cabal of power-hungry xenophobes who cling to the historical priveledge they've long enjoyed, catering to the monied class that can buy for them their positions, acknowledging the proles only so far as their support and votes are directed, putting personal ambition over Country.

Screw the lot. Even the worst that might befall the villainous scum would not come close to what they deserve. Working to even cynically pretend to dismantle democracy should engender a mighty harsh punishment indeed. More so than meted out to too many poor citizens for far lesser crimes.

I'm not American, but man, am I ******* pissed!

 

[Silly Green Monkey]

Perhaps the wealthy elites who are honest about not caring about the lessers are preferred to those who [must be] lying and saying that they care. Pelosi does happen to be closer to the majority of Americans than the more wealthy Trump, so why can't she be genuinely concerned about her neighbors in wealth, that she is better able to see?

 

[acbytesla]

Quite the hang-up on Pelosi ya got going there. Supposedly Trump's a billionaire, but spends more time and energy on TV, tweeting, and golf than on doing his goddamned job. Why aren't you whining about him being some rich, coastal elite who belongs back in his gold leaf-bedecked den of iniquity?

And as to leaving the traitorous bastard to consequence-free slink back to his den... Screw that. The GOP haled Hillary before their Kangaroo committees over Benghazzi and the death of four Americans thousands of miles away. Surely the Rump should face music over inciting a mob that lead to the deaths of five Americans a few blocks away.

And I'll echo the voices of others here who rightfully point out the effrontery of the *****' GOP would dare to now beg for *forgetting* in order to heal. After *participating* themselves in the effort to subvert democracy. Only when they're in the uncomfortable position to have to justify themselves, or show their true colors, do they mincingly fake meekness and reasonableness. Just like drumpf himself. Outta one side of their lyin' pieholes one minute the disingenuous platitudes to save themselves the embarrassment. Then in the next minute, back to their old ways of anti-democratic obstruction and cheating. Waiting for Trump 2.0, who'll be a slicker, more competent Fuhrer that obtains the desired dominance by the fearful white minority. This rotten, soulless cabal of power-hungry xenophobes who cling to the historical priveledge they've long enjoyed, catering to the monied class that can buy for them their positions, acknowledging the proles only so far as their support and votes are directed, putting personal ambition over Country.

Screw the lot. Even the worst that might befall the villainous scum would not come close to what they deserve. Working to even cynically pretend to dismantle democracy should engender a mighty harsh punishment indeed. More so than meted out to too many poor citizens for far lesser crimes.

I'm not American, but man, am I ******* pissed!

That nails it.

 

[dirtywick]

Another thing to note is the Dems have the senate majority. They can actually call witnesses and collect evidence. This is a different ball game.

edit

And he won’t be able to hide behind presidential protection either. Might even be able to force him to testify

 

[Minoosh]

If you think of articles of impeachment as analogous to crimes, think of this: reckless endangerment. Several people are dead as a direct result of Trump’s incitement.

Cops in the field make similar findings all the time. That’s not a formal charge but it’s trivial to formalize it, a few days or even hours later it’s formalized as an indictment. Four people are dead who wouldn’t be as a direct result of his flagrant disregard for life. I don’t know if he could be criminally liable in a court of law, but only because he’s president. If not for that technicality, I think prosecutors would have an easy case.

 

[Minoosh]

But don't undercharge. I'm seeing negligent homicide as the most obvious criminal charge. And if you look at it this way, it gets harder to argue against impeachment. If he can't be held criminally liable for shooting someone on Pennsylvania Avenue then what is the remedy? He might as well have personally killed those people. If he gets off scot-free because "healing" or whatever, who is to be held responsible for the deaths of 3 of his supporters and a police officer? Who BTW was reportedly also a supporter.

 

[acbytesla]

Another thing to note is the Dems have the senate majority. They can actually call witnesses and collect evidence. This is a different ball game.

edit

And he won’t be able to hide behind presidential protection either. Might even be able to force him to testify

Yep. Although you couldn't force him to testify at an impeachment trial. He still has his 5th Amendment rights.

 

[Stacyhs]

Originally Posted by Stacyhs View Post
I don't think he can find afford anyone else at this point.

FTFY

Irrelevant. He stiffs everyone anyway.

 

[Minoosh]

Do they claim to have socialist agendas?

Does Pelosi claim to have a socialist agenda?

I give you the benefit of the doubt in one respect: Where you live, things like sensible gun laws and UHC are called not "socialism" but "common sense." So from your point of view, maybe not taking a stand makes sense. But Trump tried to kick many people off their health care insurance just because he could, without a care in the world about what would replace it, because he's always been able to pay his medical bills (if he doesn't stiff his doctors the way he does everyone else).

So what, Pelosi is rich? If she gave all her money away perhaps she could alleviate some suffering. But in the US $120 million (assuming you are correct) might help a few hundred people. In the meantime, there's no structural change to the way we finance health care - no remedy for the reality that IRL, in the US, practically everybody is one health emergency away from going bankrupt. You are looking at this from a privileged point of view that is not an option in the US.

 

[a_unique_person]

First president ever impeached twice. Trump will go down in history.

 

[Meadmaker]

First president ever impeached twice. Trump will go down in history.

Indeed. He will also have another impeachment first, but which one? Will it be the first president convicted and removed, or first president to be acquitted twice?

 

[dirtywick]

Yep. Although you couldn't force him to testify at an impeachment trial. He still has his 5th Amendment rights.

You may be right, I really have no idea. I remember from last time how they kept pointing out impeachment is a political process, not a legal process. So im not sure, but what he can’t do is stonewall congress anymore.

 

[Meadmaker]

You may be right, I really have no idea. I remember from last time how they kept pointing out impeachment is a political process, not a legal process. So im not sure, but what he can’t do is stonewall congress anymore.

When it comes to testimony before Congress, a person can refuse to testify on the grounds that it might incriminate him in a criminal matter. Congress can get around that by granting immunity from criminal prosecution. At that point, there is no reason to claim the possibility of self-incrimination. So, if they drop the possibility of criminal prosecution, they could compel testimony during an impeachment trial, except......

He's still the President. That means Executive Privilege still exists, both for him, and any other member of the executive branch. They don't have to testify unless they want to.

 

[Meadmaker]

If impeachment follows the normal course, there would be a significant gap in time between the time Articles of Impeachment are passed by the House, and the time the trial commences in the Senate. The Senate would have to change the rules in order to begin proceedings before the end of his term. They can do that, if they are inclined. They could have him impeached and convicted by tomorrow morning if enough legislators got on board with it. They would have to vote in new rules in both houses that would allow for an immediate vote, and then vote, and Mike Pence is President at the end of the vote.

And if they don't do that, you kind of have to ask why not, under the circumstances.

 

[acbytesla]

You may be right, I really have no idea. I remember from last time how they kept pointing out impeachment is a political process, not a legal process. So im not sure, but what he can’t do is stonewall congress anymore.

It is a political process and not a criminal process. You're right

But you cannot force him to testify in a proceeding that might expose him to criminal prosecution.

You might be able to force him to testify if you guaranteed him immunity. I don't think anyone wants to do that. In which case Trump would want to admit to all of his illegalities. That way he would he could expand that shield of immunity.